jy23

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Meh the high school senior crap you hear spewed isn't really as big as a deal that it's being made out to be. He's 18 and has been for a while, I was 17 for my entire high school senior year and walked before I even turned 18...and I didn't skip any grades at all. One of the reasons why he didn't graduate at the age target is because of the things being done with him sports wise, there was a period in which I'm not sure he was attending school at all.

If it was he was actually 17, it'd be more impressive but he's not.

The age thing isn’t as big of a deal as experience is. He missed an entire year of playing more organized basketball before going to college. 

At this point I’m happy with anyone in the top 5 besides Young and Jackson. Anybody else I think we’re ok

I wasn’t to high on Bamba early on but I’ve grown to love him as a fit on this team. Him next to Collins could be special. His length and rim protection would be great next to Collins along with his offensive upside. 

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Yep.  It’s a big day for those that want the team to lose for the next five years.  

Nope it’s a good day for the team bc this is the oath they chose...rather you accept it or not this is the path they are taking and a day like this is great for the team 

These young guys look really good and the development of Prince looks extremely promising. If he can carry this over to next year and keep building on it then he will definitely be a big plus in the future plans of this team. Collins keeps looking good in his limited role, I hope he continues his efficiency once his role expands but I’m ok with Bud bringing him along slowly. I’m very optimistic about our future 

It’s getting worse lol

7 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

You keep saying "no strategy".  The strategy was to keep Millsap, if he were to settle for a 3 year contract.   3 years is enough time for him to mentor Collins, and maybe turn that kid into something special.  Tim Duncan doesn't become "the great one", without the mentorship of David Robinson.  Kids learn from vets.

On this team, who is Dennis learning from?  Prince?  Collins?

When you're trying to lose, you don't want to add even cheap vets who know how to play the game.  That's why Phoenix doesn't know how to win . . . and are going into their 8th consecutive year of not making the playoffs.  This, after making the playoffs 19 out of 22 years.

Phoenix royally messed up, and they haven't been able to recover from it.  What was one of the great NBA fan bases, has been reduced to rubble.

It's sad.

Who mentored lebron? KD? Steph? We really feel like this would’ve been the route to a quicker championship? You’re talking about an mvp player mentoring a number 1 pick who ended up bein the best ever at his position and most people saw greatness in him before he was ever with Robinson. If this is the best that can be done for an alternative to what we’re doin right now then I think we’re on the right path. Sap is a borderline all star and we’re talking about him mentoring the same way a top 50 all time player did. Come on man 

You have a hard time reading between the lines huh? 

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

Except that Boston did not tank, because if they had, Brad Stevens never would have taken that job.

Right, because you talked to him and he told you this 

Let’s try this again...anybody wanna tell me a team that won a championship without lottery players? Then we can keep having this discussion. If not y’all are talking in circles for the hell of it 

46 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Losing is not how you build a championship team.  

Except it is. 

The only thing that is guaranteed by never getting lottery players is never winning a championship. That’s guaranteed. Like I said you can scoff at it all you want but it’s how championships are won. Does it make losers as well? Yes. Now does not ever acquiring lottery players win you a championship? No, it doesn’t. So basically you’re saying you’d rather not have a chance to win a title bc you hate the process that it takes to get there. You’d rather be ok and never really have a chance bc it looks better. 

If someone can show me a championship team that wasn’t built with players that came from the lottery (besides 04 pistons) I’ll gladly continue to have this conversation...but if not y’all are truly arguing for the sake of arguing. 

The fact that some teams try this and still end up being bad is irrelevant if every team that ever wins does so with players from the lottery...line why are we even talking about this? You’re basically saying we COULD still not win...true. But it’s GUARANTEED we won’t win if we don’t have these kinds of players. I’m so confused on the logic being used here 

46 minutes ago, AHF said:

LeBron and Durant are MVP level players by definition.  Durant is not close to top 10 All-Time at this point in his career (he has time to make a case for it) but I do think that applies to LeBron today.  

Agree with you that you don't have to have a generational player but it sure helps.  Generational guys like Shaq, Kobe, Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Duncan, Curry, Magic, Kareem, etc. have ended up with a big % of the total championships won - like a significant majority of them.

True...kobe, Jordan, curry...those guys weren’t known to be the commodities they ended up being like magic, lebron, Shaq, Kareem etc. so us looking at these prospects and saying “there’s no lebron here” doesn’t mean anything to me basically is my overall point. 

51 minutes ago, AHF said:

There can only be 1 champion in any season.  There will never be "a lot of recent teams that are champions" or some criteria like that.  Instead, let's look at the champions and see if they meet this definition:

Defining the lottery as #1-14 in the draft here are the champions that spent time in the lottery prior to 'getting good' and the champions that didn't spend time in the lottery:

Golden State Warriors lottery years lead to drafting of core with MVP, years include:  

2008-09 29 wins (draft Curry)

2009-10 26 wins 

2010-11 36 wins (draft Klay)

2011-12 23 wins (draft Barnes & Green)

2014-15 NBA Champions

2016-17 NBA Champions

 

Cleveland Cavs lottery years lead to acquisition of core good enough to lure MVP, years include:

2010-11 19 wins (draft Kyrie and TT)

2011-12 21 wins (pick traded for JR Smith & Iman Schump)

2012-13 24 wins (bust)

2013-14 33 wins (clean cap sheet, Kyrie and pick traded for Love lure LeBron as a FA)

2015-16 NBA Champions (all players averaging double figures drafted or traded for with lottery picks other than LeBron - Kyrie 25/5 in playoffs)

 

San Antonio Spurs lottery years lead to drafting of two MVPs, years include:

1986-87 28 wins (draft David Robinson)

1987-88 31 wins*

1988-89 21 wins (draft Sean Elliot)

1994-95 NBA Finals (Robinson and Elliot score more than next 4 players combined)

1996-97 20 wins (draft Tim Duncan)

1998-99 NBA Champions (Duncan, Robinson and Elliot are only players scoring 10 or more points per game)

(+3 more championships with/0 without)

 

Miami Heat lottery years lead to drafting of Finals MVP good enough to lure MVP, years include:

2001-02 36 wins (pick traded for Shaq)

2002-03 25 wins (drafted Dwyane Wade)

2005-06 NBA Champions (Wade Finals MVP)

2010 - Wade is good enough to lure FA LeBron & Bosh

2010-11 NBA Finals

2011-12 NBA Champions

2012-13 NBA Champions

 

Dallas Mavs lottery years lead to lottery pick swap used for drafting MVP, years include:

1991-97 Lottery Seasons

1997-98 19 wins (draft Dirk)

2005-06 NBA Finals (Dirk is driving force)

2010-11 NBA Finals (Dirk is driving force)

 

LA Lakers - NO SIGNIFICANT LOTTERY RUN

Smartly trade for lottery pick to draft Kobe and use LA market to sign FA Shaq.  No significant lottery contribution.

 

 

Abbreviated years:

Boston Celtics lottery years lead to drafting Finals MVP PP and trading picks for MVP KG and Ray Allen

 

Detroit Pistons trade lottery pick for DPOY defensive core on way to winning but stand out as an example without a significant lottery run on way to winning a the sole championship without an MVP level player in ~40 years

 

Chicago Bulls lottery years lead to drafting Michael Jordan (#3) and lottery pick swap to draft Scottie Pippen (#5) as well as supporting piece Horace Grant (#10)

 

Houston Rockets lottery years lead to drafting Hakeem (#1) along with Ralph Sampson (#1) on way to early 90's rings

 

Detroit Pistons lottery years lead to drafting of Finals MVP and MVP vote recipient Isiah Thomas (#2) along with supporting players 

 

Boston lottery years lead to Bird (#6 pick and MVP), Parrish (#1 pick traded to get him) and McHale (#3) trio and rings

 

LA Lakers - NO SIGNIFICANT LOTTERY RUN

Lakers clean up again without losing big, b*&#$s.  Somehow get #1 overall picks Magic Johnson and James Worthy without a significant run of terrible play.  Manage to flip #2 overall pick (theirs after 30 win season), #8 overall pick (they acquired for their #31 pick), #3 overall pick (they got for their #13 pick), #12 overall pick (theirs) for MVP #1 pick Kareem (who forced his way out of MIL after winning a ring to LA).  It's nice when MVPs want to play for you.

 

 

* = Somehow made the playoffs this year despite a worse point diffential than this year's Hawks only to be swept by an average of double digit margins.

Just pin this somewhere so we don’t have to have this discussion anymore lol

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I raised the issue of MVP previously in the thread to emphasize that I thought developing nice rotations players was secondary to getting an player who is good enough to hit MVP level or who is good enough to attract a free agent who is good enough to hit MVP level or to be traded for a player who is capable of hitting MVP level.

I don't think a team of players like Sap, Zach Randolph, Mike Conley, Jeff Teague, etc. has any realistic probability win a ring unless paired with someone who can play at that level (they can be essential pieces in support of that top player like Horace Grant was to Jordan or Sam Cassell was to Hakeem).  I do call out the 1-time champion Pistons as the exception to that statement where they merely had 4 All-Stars and a DPOY.

If our GM believes in him the most, he should take him.  His TS% and range is the single most encouraging thing about him to me.  I don't buy into the usage driven stats as much (ala Pistol Pete being inflated by dominating the ball) but the fact that he has kept up some nice scoring efficiency while he has had such a high usage rate is encouraging.  

I am eager to see if his efficiency is for real or driven by a red hot start to the season.  So rest of season for him is very important for me.

FG% by month:

November 49.0%

December 46.2%

January 42.6%

February 36.4%

March 26.3% (only 1 game)

The mvp caliber player is fine...that’s not lebron and Durant tho. Those are generational talents...top 10 all time guys. And I’m saying we don’t need one of those to win. D wade wasn’t thought of like that coming out but he was a good prospect that matured into the player that he became. Basically what I was saying is I don’t care if we don’t draft the greatest player ever, I just want this player to be a big step towards us contending for championships

30 minutes ago, Diesel said:

It's always the lottery teams whoose argument for tanking is saying.. we're trying to win a championship.. .we just need good pieces.   Championship winning doesn't start in the lottery... if it did, there would be a whole lot of teams who have been to the lottery several years in a row that would be championship calibre.   It's fools gold and it puts you out of contention for FAs that can put you in that championship calibre. 

A few days ago somebody asked what teams went to the championship without a lottery draft pick that they drafted. 

Shaq and Kobe.  Detroit. a few others.

I think that we have been blinded by Lebron  who has been in the finals 8 times that we miss the point.   Not even the great Lebron won a championship within his first 5 years with Cleveland.   Lebron James was drafted in 2003.  They didn't win a championship unitl 2016.  And honestly that was gifted to them.   Bogut's injury and Draymond's suspension meant a whole lot for the Cavs.  Not to mention it took them getting three #1 pick overalls to get there.   It's fool's gold. 

Championships are built on building correctly. 

Not doing this, you can say that and I can find plenty of examples tonargue the opposite. Let’s jist agree to disagree and move on 

10 hours ago, KB21 said:

Then all the talk about tanking to draft an MVP caliber talent is crap.

Bruh we’re tryin to win championships, I couldn’t care less if we did it with an mvp or not. Just get me the best combination of players possible to get this thing done. Durant didn’t win until he went to golden state. Lebron didn’t win until he went to Miami. I don’t think any of us feel we’re one player away. We just want a great piece to add to the team and keep adding more pieces until the time is right for us to strike.