enrique

On 2/21/2021 at 5:21 PM, macdaddy said:

Yeah.  I don't get where Beal doesn't get blame for the Wizards sucking.   Trae got so much blame for the Hawks sucking and he was only in his second year and playing with a lot of rookies.   Beal is a vet who's supposed to be a top 10 player in the league but can't even get his team out of the basement. 

There is simply no statistical argument for Beal being an all-star over Trae...especially this season. There can be a feel good (he's been snubbed...bla-bla-bla) argument, but that is it. Trae is having his best season to date, the Hawks are better off than they were...and this is with basically the same lineup as last season minus Hunter over the past few weeks.

On 2/21/2021 at 12:18 PM, kg01 said:

We're talking about Beal, not Trae.

Just because Trae was a bad defender, and was rightfully criticized for it, doesn't mean Beal isn't as well.  If Trae was worst, Beal wasn't far behind.  And that's despite having the size and athleticism to be better, which is a far, far worse offense in my book.

I'm not some fanboy ignoring our guys' faults.  That's just not what this discussion is about.  My comments were in regards to why I think Beal's selection was questionable.   We've already had the discussion on why it could be argued Trae's inclusion was bad as well.

Beal was a worse rated defender than Trae last season.

3 hours ago, terrell said:

Been saying it...

Except Trae's better already than Marbury's greatest season ever.

On 3/9/2020 at 11:03 AM, capstone21 said:

why only 13 teams?

I don't currently have the time to see how consistently my value system coheres to all the teams. Instead I chose teams where there was a clear-cut MVP on the team and some where there have been some debates. If there is a strong coherence to the eye test, then I'll try it across the NBA. Until then just working on a theory of player comparison. Thanks for helping out! 

On 3/9/2020 at 10:46 AM, AHF said:

Looking forward to seeing the end results.  We'll give this a few days and then move it to the Around the Association thread.

Thanks! I have been slammed at work developing systems to care for at-risk populations in the city. Sorry to have been absent from here. Miss, miss, miss the Squawk and the Hawks!!!

Hey Squawkers, 

I have been gathering data and stats for a while (working on an approach to player comparison) and am wanting to compare my statistical results to our personal views/opinions on certain players. In other words, comparing the "eye-test" to the data-test. Since I am not sure where to place this, MODs feel free to move it. My only concern is that most of the other forums get little traffic in the past. I'd like to gather at least 100 responses. So you can share this with your friends. All I ask is that you do your best to choose one MVP for each team listed. I have used 13 teams for good luck and narrowed the choices down to a handful of choices. I do include the "Other" for a write in candidate, but do use that only if you really believe a case could be made for someone other than the players listed. 

Here is a link to a google form where I will gather the data. Thanks ahead of time for taking 3-5 minutes to share your personal opinion with me.

https://forms.gle/WCqEeDVqXvpQxBso9

Have a great day and hope our Hawks get a win tonight!

We are starting to see more defensive effort from the team. This little jewel is just one example

43 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

Where all the Huerter H8ers at?

19pts on 6/10 shooting 3/7 from three 4 fts 8 ast 4 rb 3 st 1 blk

He played great on both sides of the floor tonight. 

I'm not a hater, but there have been games (too many) where I felt he laid a proverbial egg for the Hawks. Recently, however, he (and a few others...including Trae's D) has been playing much better all-around games...more effort, more focus. I love it!!! I am a bit miffed at Trae's recent 3pt woes...definitely need his outside shots to fall at 35-38%...would love to see them pop toward 40% (Dame made that jump over the last two months).

4 hours ago, lethalweapon3 said:

“Terry, we need to talk about your flair.”

 

Well, they say the sky’s the limit. And, to me, that’s really true. But, my friend, you have seen nothin’. Just wait ‘til Trae gets through.

It’s well established that statistically, and as per the eye test, Trae Young has been the worst defensive point guard in this national association of professional basketball. Unlike many subpar defenders, Young’s blistering offense makes him a net positive on an Atlanta Hawks squad that would struggle for 48 entire minutes without him. But ranking #493 out of 494 NBA players (thank you, Brad Beal) by defensive metrics draws out the deTraectors like nothing else.

The good news is that an NBA star, in his second pro season, someone as reviled for his defense as he had been revered for his offense is far from unprecedented. If Kyrie Irving was in town yesterday with the Nets, and if Damian Lillard was here tonight with his Portland Trail Blazers (7:30 PM Eastern, Fox Sports Southeast and 103.3 FM in ATL, NBC Sports Northwest in PTL), they would concur wholeheartedly.

“Damian Lillard’s defense has been a topic for the wrong reasons since joining the Portland Trail Blazers,” scribed Bryant Knox for some Bleacher Report content. “Coming from a small school, people recognized his defensive deficiencies would be his Achilles heel in the NBA.” Ah, so that’s the issue. Small school. Darn you, Weber State!

Knox continued in his blog post, “In 2014-15, it’s still a problem.” Oh, well come on, Mr. Dame Time! Isn’t this, like, the start of your third NBA season, already? Do I have to resort to tapping the wrist where my watch is supposed to be? You’re already 24, for Nique’s sake! Get out there and guard somebody, you “guard,” you! Time’s a wastin’!

In the half-decade since, at our disposal we have been granted a plethora of statistical defensive metrics to help confirm, or challenge, what we as fans and pundits witness on the hardwood. Those developments have only served to make us even more impatient, more damning, of the teenaged and newly drinking-aged set of NBA upstarts.

Being a perpetual minus on the court can be managed in the grander context of team hoops. But these days, us fans can identify the most minus-y minuses out there. When it’s somebody we’re not wild about, we can keep actual figures in our bag when it’s time to dig at his fans. “How can the worst defensive players in the history of the NBA be All-Stars?” You can be a big loser, or a weak link, in some respects. Just don’t be The Biggest, or The Weakest, lest you find dismissive critics who are more than happy to bid you, “Goodbye!”

In that half-decade, James Harden has gone from YouTube laughingstock for his defensive nonchalance to an ex-MVP whose most critiqued defensiveness is directed at other All-Stars making fun of him not passing the ball. Once you get the teammates around you that accommodate your shortcomings, and you’re given the room to leave indelible offensive moments in our collective consciousness at playoff time, poof! Your defensive Debbie Downers have disappeared, as if it took the snap of Thanos’ fingers.

Kyrie had LeBron come home, and he hit The Shot that secured Cleveland its first pro championship since, like, the Eisenhower administration. From that point on, has anyone questioned aloud whether he can guard a chair? Big Game Dame waved bye-bye to Harden, Dwight and the Rockets in 2014, and when his buzzer-beater dispatched Russ, PG and the Thunder in 2019, his defensive pot-shot artists seemed to hit the exits with them.

Young needs not to go worst-to-first anytime soon. He just has to work towards getting his name off Page 13. Unlucky Page 13 on ESPN’s Defensive Real Plus/Minus (DRPM) ratings site is where you find Beal and, one spot above Young, Anfernee Simons, the prep-school-faced bench guard who is getting a splurge in playing time for the Blazers (26-34) with the injury to Lillard (groin, probably out through Monday’s end to their road trip in Orlando) and the alleviating deadline trade of Kent Bazemore to Sacramento.

Page 11 is where you’ll find Kyrie. These days, Damian’s hiding out as a Page 10 guy. If PIPM’s your thing, and you sort from bottom-to-top on D-PIPM, there are the usual suspects (Trae, Brad, Half-Penny) right at the “top”. But you’ve got to take the effort to scroll down in order to find Lillard (18^th-worst D-PIPM). Kyrie and Dame are still net-negatives, defensively. But absolutely nobody cares, not anymore.

Accomplishments on big stages with the world’s eyes upon you help a ton. Teammates that have the sensibilities to know how to provide you adequate cover on that end of the floor are a big deal. Competent coaching, developmental, and managerial staffs that don’t give up on you go a long way. But the first big step for going from The Worst to Not Quite That Bad begins with you, the player, and your will to get better.

“We’ve gotta get stops!” has been a mantra Trae has used at every opportunity in front of a mic since the Hawks returned from the All-Star Break. He’s not merely trying to speak French by saying, “we.” His awareness of how to avoid getting caught in space, or woefully out of position on pick-and-rolls, is improving. He stands out when he’s actively fighting for strips around the rim, or hounding ballhandlers as the shot clock nears expiration.

As @Cwell commented yesterday, “Trae with the CLAMPS!! Lol”. Hawks fans are as vociferous and joyful in noting Trae’s defensive hustle, especially when it leads to a “stop,” as they are when he cans a logo-distance jumper.

Much like Lillard (NBA-high 37.0 MPG, career-high 7.9 APG and 29.5 PPG) in his early seasons, one sign of Trae’s commitment to improve in many aspects is coming at the free throw line (91.7 FT% on 10.9 FTAs/game in February; 82.9 FT% on 5.1 attempts last season). Just a modicum of measurable improvement and consistency on the defensive end (119.5 D-Rating in losses this season, 108.1 in wins) gives his Hawks chances to win, and his slovenly slanderers a spray of Haters-B-Gone.

Young understands he doesn’t necessarily have to get all the steals, blocks and boards that sweeten up the boxscores. But the stat at the end of his boxscore line will look better when he’s thinking of his duties on the defensive side of the ball, not the myriad #SCTop10 opportunities that await his team on the other end.

Atlanta (18-43) has gone 3-2 since the Break, and coincidentally, Young has been zero-or-better on the plus-minus figure in four of the Hawks’ past five games. His +14 showing as the Hawks turned up the defensive heat in the final quarter last night and flamed the Nets, 141-118, was his best in over a month, despite offensive output that was subpar for his typical mastery (6-for-18 FGs).

Also once hassled as a young Hawks starter for his struggles defending pick-and-rolls, Jeff Teague remembers his All-Star run, where he drew praise not merely for his uptick in scoring but for dogged defensive plays that led to highlight transition buckets. He provided a glimpse of the not-all-distant past with his cherry-on-top dunk off a mid-court theft in the closing minutes of Friday’s win over Brooklyn.

When Jeff was a positive plus-minus, the Hawks were successful on the scoreboard. Similarly, Atlanta is 11-0 this season when Young turns in a +8 or better in a game. Anything +1 or worse, his Hawks are a diametric 0-34.

Being an offensive supernova, but The Worst of the worst defensively, leaves you perceived as an NBA novelty act, categorized with the D’Angelo Russells and Lou Williamses of the world. The league’s Top 20 players for RPM generally co-align with MVP and MIP finalists (hello there, Dennis). While there are plenty of great two-way players in that mix, there are stars – Luka, Russ, Damian, throw in Curry and Kyrie if they were healthier – who are just slight negatives in the DRPM column. In the years to come, as Trae transforms from The Worst to just Bad, like his more accomplished peers, he’s going to find himself with a dedicated rung on the MVP Ladder.

Trae doesn’t have to aim for DPOY glories. Halfway decent isn’t even required. When it comes to defense, our Hawks simply need him to be Bad. Come on, you know. Once he makes the Leap from The Worst to Bad, the whole world will have to answer, right then. Just to tell you, once again.

 

Happy Leap Day! Happy HBCU Night! Go United! And Let’s Go Hawks!

~lw3

Awesome as always!!!! My only beef Is that Trae’s the “worst” defender in the NBA is only really using RAPM. There are many other stats that place him well above Beal, IT, and others. Bottom 30 defender for sure. Worst? No. Needs significant improvement? Absolutely!!! Just have decided not to accept that narrative anymore without stating there are other metrics to consider besides ESPN. 

46 minutes ago, PSSSHHHRRR87 said:

I will be in attendance for tonight’s game!!! Le’go Hawks!!!

Jealous!!!!

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

Cam is really coming on strong. Love the intensity on defense and his offensive game is finally starting to grow. Love what he will be in two years time!

I hate to say this, but it looks like Cam is still filling out and getting used to his body. He has all kinds of potential. It’s really crazy. I thought he’d be a bust after Duke. Man, I am a huge fan now. 

1 hour ago, JTB said:

Luka isn’t a good 3pt shooter but folks don’t seem to want to admit it. Now he is a good player overall but Trae was always the better shooter and id bet he finishes his career as the better shooter over luka.

cam is a better shooter too that just had to make adjustments. I’m so excited for cam! He really does have the potential to be our best overall player on the team. 
 

future is extremely bright with trae and cam.

For sure. I tried to tell the lukastans this from his pro career. He is a historically weak 3 pt shooter. Lifetime average 32-33%. Free throws around 78%. Neither have gone up a lot during his pro career in Europe and US. If he’d focus on driving and midrange more (his strengths) he’d help his team win more. As it stands he isn’t even Top 5 on his team in on/off. He brings down their team 3pt% too. Don’t get me wrong. He is great. So is Trae. They are just exceptional in different ways. Unless Luka has Trae’s work ethic I’d say we got a huge bargain in Trae. 

On 2/28/2020 at 10:40 AM, AUhawksfan said:

I'd put him higher as a Hawks fan but from the outside I get it.  Winning is the only difference with what Luka has so it's easy to say it's because of him just like it's easy to say we're losing because of Trae's lack of defense or whatever you want to use.  We are in the bottom tier with our record and respect is earned with wins and once Trae gets that with the Hawks it will come from people that don't watch him on a night in night out basis.

Suns fans could argue the same with Booker not being up there but they haven't proven they can win consistently yet either.  Morant spoke about Westbrook being disrespected and I see that too and I think it comes back to him never winning a chip.

I get Trae being slighted but some of you guys get so butthurt about the criticisms and act like this situation is only for us "lowly Hawks fans."

Winning changes everything.  We got plenty of positive publicity and news when we won 60 games.

A few disconnected thoughts/observations:

1) The Westbrook issue is inefficiency more than winning. His true shooting percentages and points per shot have always been well-below many other prolific scorers. I’d Trae was posting numbers that inefficient I’d scream at him to pass and pass again. 

2) The irony of the “winning” Stats=real stats and losing stats=empty stats is really shown when we get to Draft time. Many lists have Lamelo Ball at the top, yet his Australian record is worse than Trae’s Hawks. Not many commentators are even discussing this as they were posting his stat lines game by game. 

3) I have no idea where to post this tweet regarding lineups in ATL. So here you go. I was surprised at the net rating but love what I’m seeing here. 

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

I don't understand how you do this either unless you subscribed to an authorized TV provider of fox sports.  

That is the deal. Sorry. Just waking up I didn’t know you had no subscription. I get the + award for the original post. 

Here’s a stat I just saw:

1 hour ago, Vol4ever said:

Anbody wise have this?   They are taking Braves and Hawks off tomorrow after not reaching an agreement with Sinclair broadcasting.  

Guess I have to go back to spectrum but they show the Grizzlies in the Chattanooga area if they are playing.

What to do....... arrh

I use fox sports for all of the games via the web. EPB Fiber. 

28 minutes ago, Plainview1981 said:

Damn. Looks like i missed a great performance.

As long as you missed the first quarter you would have enjoyed most of it. Replaying on foxgosports 

18 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Not against guys his size he doesn't.

He did in this game at least once then...pushed in the back, still grabbed the board.