JustSomeGuy

Reality is, I think it’s more practical to trade CC because he’s probably more valued right now. But it also makes us significantly worse. 

@Diesel do you see that being better or worse in an offensive system where your 4s are expected to be floor spacers?

If worse, then we know who doesn’t fit. 

I’ve seen it stated that playing next to CC is impacting his rebounding numbers as well, which is true. But his rebounding this year was down a full rebound over the last two seasons and that’s with him playing more minutes next to OO who is more of a perimeter threat. Plus after several seasons playing together you would think their fit would get BETTER with time, not worse. 

CC has just been more impactful on us winning as he increased our defensive ceiling (compared to JC) so you can’t reasonably justify keeping John over him. 

There’s a lot of debate on whether to keep Collins or not and most of the reasons center on him being likable or a leader or make excuses for his lack of production. Reality is, while he’s young, he’s just overpaid, underproducing, injury prone, and getting worse every year. 

The debate on whether to keep him when coupled with this reality is based more on sentiment than production.

Collins is what he is. A scheme limited PNR 4 who can occasionally step out to 3 and a be good help defender. He’s a declining rebounder, not a true stretch 4, can’t create off the dribble (although he’s gotten better) can’t score on smaller guys consistently in the post and isn’t strong enough to consistently hold up as a post defender to ever be a small ball 5. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t have value, just not for this team or this system. Cut bait. 

if you don’t like Harrison Barnes that’s fine. He was awful in that finals series but has been a winning player in his career, is a solid perimeter defender, and fits our team needs better than Collins. I also like Trey Lyles as a guy with plus upside.

Collins is this board’s sacred cow. We are a team of fans who overvalues our talent. To get great will require cutting ties with some likable players. Other teams don’t give away good talent for scraps.

That said, a blockbuster trade isn’t necessary and there should be some good players available on the MLE and FA market if we can free up some space. Some small tweaks (mostly shooting and leadership) would take this team a long way. Here’s my list of priorities 

1. Signing some vet leaders, 3 and D wings (guys like Terence Ross, Matisse Thybulle, Jae Crowder, Ingles, Jalen McDaniels are all available. HELL no to Dillon Brooks, we don’t need machismo we need leadership. Big difference)

2. Trading Collins/Fixing the front court (Trey Lyles, Harrison Barnes, possibly moving Hunter as upgrades)

If we do these two things we are a 50 plus win team next year. If we see guys like Hunter develop some consistency we might push ourselves into contender status. 

This is really a question of which two fit best. Dre would benefit from playing beside a true floor spacer (3 or 4) and a defensive big.

Collins needs an big who can stretch the floor and still rebound (because he doesn’t anymore) and Capela is Capela. He can play beside either so long as the 4 doesn’t crowd the paint.

Because of that, Dre and Capela are the easiest to build around. JC has to go because his contract doesn’t match production and his skillet, is hardest to find a fit around. 

The only thing Dillon Brooks does better than Hunter is talk and poke bears. 

Can’t shoot, doesn’t rebound, overrated defender. HELL no. 

I also definitely want absolutely nothing to do with Ayton. My God he would be a disaster here. 

This is off topic but watching this Nuggets-Suns game Aaron Gordon has carved out a nice role for himself. 

@Diesel what do you make of how his +/- has trended downward every month over the year?

This thread is full of sentiment for JC but his job is production. He can be a great guy, but there are no sacred cows when it comes to championships and being likable doesn’t cut it. 

If he isn’t traded JC needs to be a permanent fixture on the second unit next season.

Worst case is he is going to have to be paired with an actual asset to get him off the books. I suspect 2/3 of Hunter, Capela, and JC won’t be here next season. 

Good list @ShooterSays

I agree Delon was a great fit for his game and should have been a starter last year but Paul George is the perfect complimentary star with Trae (and DJ) sans injuries. 
Smart, instinctive, great defender, good shooter, can create for others and a good rebounder.

@Diesel we can agree to disagree. half the guys you mentioned are hybrids. KD is a pure 3 with length. Kuzma, Gordon, and Lebron are 3s who became 4s as their bodies matured. Lauri is a pure stretch 4 who plays like a 3. JJJ and Mobley are natural 4/5s who can occasionally step out to 3 but aren’t really great shooters. Their value is in spacing and rim protection with the exception of KAT who can’t really guard either position but is a plus offensive threat.

Randall is really the only pure 4 on that list but he offers nothing in rim protection and plays mostly as a shot creator more in the Lauri mold. 

If bigs don’t offer any interior presence they  negate their biggest advantage. Ex. If JC could kill Tatum in the post it creates a major defensive mismatch they would have to account for that takes away their natural offensive advantage. Because he provides nothing offensively or defensively we are playing 5 on 4 every possession.

@JayBirdHawk could be Griffin, could be Bogi in a dream scenario it would be an upgrade with a trade of JC but I’d take Reggie Bullock or Jae Crowder in a heartbeat. 

Quote

Sounds like we found another Terrelll

I don’t know who that is @Peoriabird but would love to hear your fix.

Reality is Hunter is a tweener who doesn’t do anything great, especially not things you would need a primary ball handler to do (dribble, pass, create). Playing him as a guard or primary scorer is an absolute non starter so hiding his weaknesses within team construction only makes him, and the team, better. 

@Peoriabird Hunter at the 4 improves our POA defense with another switchable perimeter defender while making room In the starting 5 for another scorer/3 and D wing. It improves spacing, created room for another short creator, AND improves our perimeter defense. 

The league is moving away from the traditional big 4 into the switchable 3/4 hybrid in this role. Consider that Boston functionally plays Tatum at the 4 anyway. Same for Miami and Jimmy/Caleb Martin, Philly and Tobias Harris (who came in as a 3). In the West you have guys like LeBron, Aaron Gordon, KD and Torrey Craig. We do need size and interior presence but don’t have to sacrifice one for the other. Becoming more multiple makes us more dynamic. 

I don’t disagree. I personally think that both Hunter and JC are charmin soft and should be moved. The reality is I don’t think that will happen. I think his defensive prowess is greatly overstated by some. He’s the king of the misfits on this team.

The part everyone misses is every individual player doesn’t have to be a good defender to have a good defense. Scheme and structure matter. Bey isn’t a good defender either but is at least more disruptive than DH. With better structure around him I suspect he could at least be a serviceable fit in a strong team defense. 

BUT if you pair Hunter at the 4 with his length and a center who can control the paint defensively, I think it works (a la Quin’s Gobert, Bogdanovich, Ingles pairing in Utah). 

Also JC is done here. I had hoped for him finding his way and role as a pick and pop 4 with range but he’s only gotten softer and more injury prone with time. +/- be damned but my guy is a complete Black hole this series because he can neither score consistently on the interior of the Celtics 4 guard lineups, hit open perimeter shots, or provide enough perimeter defense on the other end.

If we had a front court player who could add any interior presence this series would look different. 

Generally a successful offseason is one where both JC and Hunter are upgraded for more consistently productive players. I know there’s been a lot of handwringing over win shares and +/- but there’s no way just on the pure eye test anyone can look at them and see that to be true. JC moreso than Hunter.

Realistically we have an upgrade for JC waiting on our bench that just needs some seasoning in JJ but the only real fit for Hunter is to move to playing the 4 full time. This would accent his strengths as a wing defender but hide his greatest weaknesses in shot creating, dribbling, and passing. He’s an above average POA defender but not particularly on ball disruptive. He’s a poor rebounder for his size but has potential to be better if taken out of a wing role and would help our spacing. I think he would thrive guarding stretch 4s primarily instead of quicker 3s (as we have seen Brown and Tatum blow past him one time too many this series). He is still soft and has to shed his injury prone label but that’s his only real fit with an upgrade at the 3. 

I’ve been lurking around here for awhile and generally enjoy the basketball banter about our Hawks.

But anyone who sees this team play and who thinks Hunter should be in a primary ball handling capacity is nuts. These proposals were all DOA for me when they result in Hunter, who can’t dribble or pass his way out a paper bag, playing as a lead guard. All that does is increase Trae’s ball handling responsibility and make the other 4 guys fully dependent on him as a shot creator.