thesheedera

Diesel, you've outdone yourself. I'm officially done wasting any time with ou on this board. Ladies and Gentlemen, Diesel just quoted a story about Marvin's little league baseball days to sho why as a man he's not ready for prime time. Quote: Marvin Williams walked up to his coach and said some very strange words: "Coach, take me out." He explained the situation, and Justin Robinson played the final few minutes of the game while future college star Marvin Williams sat on the bench. "The coach kind of looked at me funny, but I thanked him for taking me out of the game," Williams says today. "My buddy was crying, and I felt so bad for him. Little league baseball, nice reach. And you admit that you only saw one game. you are a fine judge of talent to watch on game, and come up with a full assessment of a kid's ability, and his maximum potential. Marvin may have sucked for a lot of that game, but he was the only reason the Heels made it through the first few rounds (WHEN MAY SUCKED), and he scored the winning points. I'll take it. As a Hawks fan, you might want to stop bashing your own players, especially before they even take the floor.

More high picks coming off the bench early on: 2004 Livingston - #4 pick - 15/30 games started 2002 Mike Dunleavy - #3 pick - 3/82 games started 2000 Stro Swift - #2 pick - 6/80 games started Darius Miles - #3 pick - 21/81 1st year, only 6/82 2nd year 1999 Baron Davis - #3 - 0/82 games started

You're reaching badly here, you sound foolish: Quote: Why didn't Marvin go to a school where he would be allowed to SHINE? Isn't that what Most Stars do? He did shine, he won a national championship, learned from the coach with the highest winning pct. in college basketball, and went to to school of his childhood dreams. Quote: How many superstars go into a situation where they will be on the bench for sure? Anyone that goes to UNC, Duke, UConn etc. etc. knows that there's no guarantee to start because there's already talent there. Top talent, every year. For lots of kids, they want to win and play for/with/against the very best, THAT's why you go to UNC. And he didn't know he wouldn't start, he didn't know that he would start. He went because of Coach Williams, "simply put". I think the guys that go to smaller schools without competition for PT and w/o top competition in games are the cowards. Quote: MW just doesn't have the attitude of a superstar. Does D. Wade? Does Duncan? What the hell are you talking about? You can be humble and confident at the same time. Quote: Was there ever a time when Larry Bird didn't want the damn ball in his hands?? In fact, Bird made sure that everybody knew that at crunch time, he was going to determine the fate of his team. Even at ISU. Name one instance where Marvin has avoided playing during crunch time, and within a crunch time situation, one instance where he shied from taking a shot. Did you watch UNC play this season, or just the last two games?

Quote: Who do you think will carry this franchise in 4 yrs? JJ, JC and Marvin.

"Content" I don't know, that's impossible to tell, because you;d have to know what he's thinking as opposed to what he's saying. I don't think Marvin will be "content" coming off the bench, but I do think he will say all the right things, and that he'll handle himself professionally, no matter how he is played, but he'll do everything in his power to earn his playing time. But Diesel, what does his draft number have to do with how he handles getting playing time as a rookie? Your draft number doesn't mean you earned a damn thing. Since when is playing time determined by when you were selected? The GM picks the draft, the coach chooses the playing time. And what's with coming up with past people to explain what's gonna happen with Marvin? Here are some similar cases: Raymond Felton was picked #5 this year for a team as bad as ours. He never had much of a chance at #2 in the draft, but most people agree that the talent was pretty even after #1, right? If (not saying he will, but if) Breven Knight starts the season as the starter, Raymond might be dying inside, but if he's a good teammate/employee, he'll shut up until he earns it. Should Raymond throw a tantrum, or should he let the vet lead the way, and wait patiently until its his team? Me thinks the latter. What was Ben Gordon? #3 in last years draft? Didn't he just win the 6th man award? Didn't he come off the bench when Chris Duhon started? Didn't Duhon get picked #39? You want to call Ben out now? I'd take Ben over 90% of our team, all day long. He only started 3 games, out of 82. Did he like sitting at the tip? Probably not, did he cause any problems? Hell no. Yao Ming was a starter from the beginning, but he's the kind of guy that would be a professional and accept coming off the bench, even if he didn't like it. I think Dwayne Wade would too, that dude is as humble as they get. Jay Williams was picked 2nd, he came off the bench for almost a 3rd of his rookie season, and had he not been injured, I think he would have ended up just fine. It isn't that strange to have a high pick come off the bench early on, especially with the age of kids entering being so much lower these days. Was it weird when Kwame was gonna be brought along slowly? He was #1, started 3 games as a rookie. Yeah, he was a bust, but they never thought he would start from day 1. SAME DRAFT: Tyson Chandler was picked 2nd, started 31/71 games. Curry started 31/71. Some are busts, some are success stories, but it isn't that uncommon that a high pick other than Darko comes off the bench. So... simply put, what?

The problem is that people read: He didn't start for his college team. They hear: He didn't complain about playing time, he accepted his role. And they believe that Marvin didn't want to start, and then they believe Marvin isn't determined, or Marvin doesn't have any fire, or he won't establish himself, or he's weak or something. Marvin's been praised for his intensity, which was obvious in games (over the course of the entire season, taking out his poor performances in two NCAA games is not a complete way to look at him as a player, he made mistakes, had good games and bad games, he was a freshman), and apparently just as evident in practices. Keep in mind he had some very strong personalities on that team. Jawad, Melvin and Jackie had been though "8-20", been through the most intense coach UNC ever had in Doherty, and they all stuck around. They were not happy about the fact they then: Lost most of their playing time to the best class UNC has had in a long time in Raymond (the "Savior"), May (the golden child) and McCants (the "headcase", who I happen to love, so I don't mean that in a bad way). These are guys who were all highly touted, were rumored to be selfish and egotistical, and supposedly only cared about their personal success (all bs in my opinion, but those were the critics claims). Thy were blamed for running off Doherty. Well it took Roy a year to get these guys on one page, or at least in the same chapter, but there was still a lot of tension. Marvin was walking into a lion's den, and a weak minded person would have suffered. The thing is, everyone was taken aback by how he took it at these guys immediately. He raised their intensity because he asserted himself, from the very first preseason workouts and scrimmages. He was relentless. So he takes a backseat to Jawad and May, because even though he's a tremendous talent, he knows he has a lot to learn from them. Jawad is a 4 year starter in the ACC, been through hell at UNC, knows Roy's system, and knows exactly what a 6-8 SF/PF with range is supposed to do in that system. May is obviously the beast, and he grew up learning from his pops and Bobby Knight's program. Marvin may have more upside than those guys in the long run, but he had a hell of a lot to learn from them. I think its awesome that he recognized that, embraced it, and still managed to take up 20 minutes a game without stepping on Jawad's toes. Everyone but Jawad was fully aware that Marvin could have gotten more minutes in the rotation, and that those would have come from Jawad's minutes. But the system WORKED they way they ran it, and they all have rings to show for it. Marvin was getting a ton of praise as the freshman of the week accolades started piling up, and yet he and Jawad remained close because Marvin stayed humble, and ALWAYS gave Jawad and Sean the credit for his development, to a fault. Now one person will hear that and think Marvin's weak. I look at that and say that this guy is a leader, someone who wants all the blame, and none of the praise, even though he knows deep down inside that he desrves the praise. That's the mark of a good person, the kind of guy that knows how to be your competitive rival, AND your friend, whioch makes him a great teammate. I fully expect him to take the same exact attitude with Al and Josh. I think we'll read "its their team, I want to help how I can" kind of quotes from him all the time. I think he'll be patient asserting himself within the team dynamics, but I think he'll go for the jugular on the practice floor. You'll still hear him deferring to Josh and Al, even when he starts taking their minutes up more as his development goes, and that will help endear him to those two guys, who definitely have a lot they can teach him about coming into the NBA real young with a lot to prove. That's the kind of thing that keeps fueds from happenning, even as healthy rivalries begin. Diesel, I think you're looking at him and being too critical about how he carries himself and the words he says. Believe his actions, not his press conference quotes. Understand that he has the attitude needed to compete for his job and to help the team win. He's got the confidence to dominate, the fearlessness to try even in the face of failure, and he has the tact to speak only the words that need to be spoken.

Quote: More important than his play... His attitude is disturbing. A real player wants to be on the floor when the game is on the line. Can you say that about Marvin? No... All you can say about Marvin is that he's a good team player... WHAT? MARVIN WAS ALWAYS IN THE GAME WHEN IT WAS ON THE LINE. DON'T MAKE FALSE CLAIMS TO SUPPORT YOUR ANTI-MARVIN BS ARGUMENTS If there's ever a time a game ISN'T on the line, its at tip off. Marvin was obviously in the game when the games mattered, otherwise how do you explain the tip in against Illinois, and thew inning basket and free throw against Duke. His attitude is maybe his best attribute (he's a kid that will do anything to win, and to help the team, not some sheepish loser who doesn't want to play, get it straight), you're taking his willingness to come off the bench to allow a 4 year starter to start games, and the fact that he outwardly expressed his willingness to do so, and you're throwing it in his face. I understand criticisms about the fact that he has to polish his skills, and he hasn't proven anything yet, but quit spreading lies about the kid's attitude.

More nonsense re: Marvin. If by... Quote: People had Marvin being a 6'10 PF coming out of UNC. ...you mean that YOU were uninformed, then that's your own fault. Marvin has never been listed any taller than 6'9", and he is still a SF/PF prospect, no matter what your personal opinion might be.

Yeti - just talking about the teams his high school played against. Marvin elected to stay in Bremerton at a smaller school playing weaker competition rather than going to Seattle Prep or another Seattle school, where he would have been playing against more top talent, like the guys you mention. The area is a hotbed for talent right now, I was just saying the teams his high school played were not top tier. AAU competition out there was strong for sure (though I don't think he ever played JT ), but watching his high school clips is deceiving because the competition was not very strong.

I meant Reef in High school, not college. my bad.

Quote: NBAdraft.net You had me at hello. I personally don' like that site. I think its a great source of historical information on actual draft order, and can be fun to look at for upcoming drafts, but players bounce on and off their lists almost daily, and I believe its ll a conglomeration of other publications, I don't think the people that run it have any real knowledge of what's going on. I could see someone watching one of Marvin's HS games and think he has guard skills, because he played all positions for them. His clips reminded me of Reef in college. He'd bring up the ball in crunch time. He'd shoot from the perimeter, lead the fast break, he'd do everything. But Marvin's competition was weak in HS, and the idea of him playing guard never once seemed likely following his recruitment. It was always SF/PF for college, and SF/PF for NBA according to gurus that reported his recruitment, and his consideration of entering the draft right out of school.

...justifying one player's chances with success by coming up with an example of a different player who had success with the same exact skill sets/measurements/ability? Aren't the best players usually the ones who break molds? What does it prove? Who was the precedent for Jordan? Oscar Robertson? Only thing that comes close. What about Magic? What about KG? Who was the first Dirk? Who the hell cares? The only thing that matters is the player in the present, and what they can do. Few teams have prototypical players at every position, and even the best players are forced to ply out of position from time to time. Magic played 5 positions in on series. Jordan played 3 positions with regularity, and even posted up some PFs as a Wizard. Duncan's a "PF" but also a top 3 Center in the league. Look at the Suns last year. Stoudamire played lots at Center, Marion (6'7") played plenty at PF. They didn't win it all, but I'd trade our season for theirs.

Quote: He was considered a pro Sg/Sf candidate coming out of HS, not a Pf candidate. WHAT??? Walter, what is your source of information that makes you believe Marvin was ever projected as a SHOOTING GUARD??? Just the fact that he can shoot? http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=447934 Ht: 6-8.5 Wt: 222 PPG: 24.0 Position: SF, PF Projected as: SF, PF Position Rank: 3 Date of Birth: 6/19/1986 Class: 2004 Senior AAU Team: Seattle Rotary Select High School: Bremerton HS (Bremerton, WA) Biography: 2004 - North Carolina: Averaged 28.7 points and 15.5 rebounds, five blocked shots and five assists as a senior at Bremerton High School in Bremerton, Wash. • Earned McDonald's and Parade All-America honors • Also played at the Roundball Classic in Chicago • Two-time all-state selection and the Washington Player of the Year by the Associated Press • Averaged 31 points with a high of 37 points in four postseason games last year • Had a season-high 45 points in a win over Gig Harbor and added two other 42-point games as a senior • Had 20 or more rebounds in five different games with a high of 25 • Blocked 11 shots twice as a senior and had 10 in another game • Averaged 23.9 points and 14 rebounds as a junior and was named area player of the year 2003 - High School Basketball: Member of the underclassman all-star game at the 2002 adidas ABCD Camp. Terrific talent and ultra versatile. He can certainly play both forward positions. Not as tall as Drew Gooden but shares some of the same traits that made Gooden a star. Has such an incredible feel for the game. Super touch from all over the court. Has a presence about him that will make him a star.

Diesel - You seem to be assuming that "learning from the bench" means a majority of the time on the bench. I'm talking about sharing time, platooning at positions, learning different skills, and working your way in. As long as they're getting 25 or 30 minutes at least in the game, if the rest of the time is on the bench, I believe there are plenty of things they can learn from observation and listening. Some guys do great when thown into the fire immediately, some guys burn out and lose their confidence. There's no single way to go about it, but having two guys sharing time at a couple of positions in the 1st/2nd year in the league is not a bad thing. If these guys were traded to another team, that team would face the same issue of fitting them into their personnel. Neither of these guys are absolutes at either position. I agree they are both better suited for SF, but I can envision both of them as PFs too. Their height is not as much of an issue as their ability to play, use their bodies, reach for balls, and use their athleticism. People are bagging on Marvin's athleticism, which is nonsense. He's not a freak like Vince Carter or a Josh Smith, but his athleticism has never limited his game in any way, its only bolstered it. Their height gets more attention than it should. They have both been listed at 6'9", as tall as Malone, taller than Barkley. The official measurements show Marvin at what? 6'8.5" with shoes on, 6'7.5" w/o shoes? Does a half inch really limit his ability? Does an inch and a half change his effectiveness? I think its more about using your body, timing your jump, using your reach, moving your feet. Josh Smith is getting VERY thick, if he can match his mass with aggressive physical play, he'll wear peopl out down low. Marvin has a big frame, and still has plenty of room to fill out. I know that your argument against Marvin is that he hasn't proven anything, and he hasn't. But he hasn't had a chance to prove anything on the NBA level, and he only played one position in college on a ridiculously stacked team coached by a man who cares more about "the right way" than he does about showcasing talent. Roy knew if the team was successful, they'd all get drafted, and they did, in unprecedented numbers. But he didn't allow them to be selfish and treat college like an audition, he had them play the game. It may not show yet, but I strongly believe that what Marvin learned as a freshman at UNC will help him be a winner for his whole career.

Quote: I do agree that it's good for business.... FOR a short time... However, I can also see this going bad. Just like the BU QB and QB controversies... In Basketball, it's hard for a player to play well when he knows that one mistake will put him on the bench. I think at some Point, Woody will have to step up and say " _________ is my starter and the minutes will go this way." An example, I can pull up from the old Dieselputer is J.O in Portland. First off, who can blame PTL? They had Wallace, Brian Grant, Oneal and A. Harvey fighting for minutes at the PF spot. They had Sabonis, Cato, and Klein at C. IN all the confusion, it's hard to get your 8-9th man minutes and that's what happened with J.O. Imagine if they could have found time to play him sufficiently like Indy did? That's my fear in this case... Somebody will miss a lot of development time and not play as well as possible for fear that if they mess up or if they have too many off nights, they will be on the bench watching? But the Hawks don't have that kind of wealth at any position. As much as some might like to believe, Josh Smith is not a proven commodity. The Blazers had proven vets on that team, and a bunch of them. As a matter of fact, there are so few proven commodities on this team, that competition at every position is essential to development, for ALL of them. And don't underestimate what you can learn while sitting on the bench if you're paying attention, and you're listening to your coaches. Its the guys that pout with the towels on their heads that don't learn anything. Diesel, I understand what you're saying, but I think you're overestimating the talent we have. We have 1 definite NBA starter - JJ. We have another definite 6th man, who could start on a lot of teams - AL. We have lots of young guys with potential to be starter quality players or even superstars, but none of them have "earned" anything, and all of them can be beat out for their positions. If Josh Smith thinks he has a starting position in the NBA wrapped up for his career because he had some highlights, he better think twice. That's a fast road to complacency, which results in crappy play. I think a rivalray between Al, Josh and Marvin for time at the forward spots would be great for all of them, they all need to fight every day to get better. If they can do this within the concept of a team environment, the reults should be favorable. If they get bratty and think of themselves only - we're in trouble. Marvin is the type to fight hard within the team mindset, often labled as the most intense in practice between him, Jawad and May. I don't know enough about Josh and Al to have a guess of how they'll respond. But I like what I know about both of them. There are a lot of minutes to go around for two spots and three players. And yes, I do believe that both Marvin and Josh can develop into PFs in this league. You say they don't have any post moves, well I say the don't have any polished perimeter moves. They are just as effective right now down low as they are as a SF. They have a TON to learn to be effective at either position. Luckily for us, both have the talent to do so, at both positions, especially if all they need to do is learn some moves. I personally feel there's a lot more for them to learn than that.

RED - I agree 100% with you. JJ may start at the point, but I expect to see Lue bringing the ball up in crunch time, with JJ looking for a shot, and Marvin and J. Smith watching and learning.

Can't believe people are freaking out about this. If nothing else, he's 6 fouls for Shaq.

Agreed, it looks terrible, but this is definitely a post bump release shot. When you realize that its on the way back, Smith's form is technically better than Childress'.

Maybe, but unlessthey get tons of positve press on it, I think most fans out there won't be too pumped about it. Only those of us following it so closely have developed a terrible disdain for Belkin. The casual Hawks fan probably thinks this whole mess isn't worth the trouble, and even if the other 8 win out, they probably expect more trouble down the road.

Coverage has been pretty weak nationally, but Stein and Tim Tucker seem to be on this thing now. If they're close to a decision or have made a decision, I expect some "end to holdout coming?" type comments made at today's pc, at the most.

If something has been decided regarding Belkin and/or JJ, I think the story will be broken by the AJC or ESPN before things are finalized, and the Hawks will stay mum on it until everything's complete.

Is this "house search" related, or "ownership issues resolved and JJ's deal is signed" related? If its the second, this franchise will breath new life today.

Quote: Wouldn't you take a slap in the face for 16 million? Absolutely, I'd take a slap a day for every dollar in the deal. This isn't live breaking coverage, but it'll make the local evening news for a quick bit, and it will be a nice way to welcome a guy who's walking into the complete unknown. If Chillz is right, maybe you will get your groundbreaking press conference.

What's wrong with having a press conference? Apparently only 680 the fan claimed it was something huge, and we all know they're just trying to keep people listening. He's a four year deal and at this point is a definite starter on the team. If they didn't have a press conference of some sort,it would be a slap in his face. We can use all the positivity we can get right now. Welcome to our home, ZAZA. And sorry about all the noise. We're in the middle of a divorce you see, but make yourself comfortable. The dude's gotta be scraed crapless right now. He needs some love.

Stern's a teflon guy, usually comes out of messes looking like a concerned and fair, yet "stern" dictator. He has absolute control of the NBA, and fully understands how to make himself look just. He's thinking this over, looking for a permanent solution, maybe even letting the drama build a bit, and he'll come in and save this franchise from itself. At least, that's what I hope he does. If Stern intends a permanent solution, I have a feeling this ownership will be far more structured and efficient moving forward. I expect (hope?) Gearon Jr. to be in control, and be the face of the ownership.