lethalweapon3

Links, please! On the season-ending plus-minus Horford ranked sixth, and was even higher earlier in the season. Do you see Bogut anywhere in the top 50? http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22009&split=9&team= Bogut's net 48-minute PER by season's end? +7.1. Horf's? +10.9. And Horf was better pre-All-Star Game. http://www.82games.com/0910/09MIL18.HTM http://www.82games.com/0910/09ATL11.HTM I'm sure Bogut did have more blocks and boards. How many more? Enough to get his team out of the doldrums of third place in a weak Central Division? Apparently not. You look to your left and have Josh Smith. I look to my left and have Ersan Ilyasova. Your top scoring guard is on his way to an All-Star berth and mine is in crutches, again. I'd darn well better have more blocks, boards, points, and floor burns than you! And if I wanna be an All-Star it had better be a ton more, especially on a losing team! When the stats in the paper are negligible, the GMs and coaches pick based on factors that have more to do with PER and WinShares. And I'll say it again, I'm VERY biased. Just like the NBA other fans. And if I cared enough to get Horford to start, I can ballot stuff the same way they and every other NBA fan (unlike those coaches and execs, who I don't believe can even vote for their own players) can. Yet that still wasn't enough to help Lee or Bogut make a case until after the fact. I'll also note that in the Hawksquawk thread I linked earlier, I indicated that I preferred that Smoove make it, were it a decision among those two. But it wasn't, so I understand the choice that was made to take Horford. ~lw3

No mistake, I'm VERY biased. And yet I'm making the case for Bogut as the hands-down pick in April that he was not in January. Again these couples of NBA fans brought no evidence beyond petty fuming ("OMG!" is not an argument). Their (also biased) petty arguments were not enough to get David Lee more votes for forward than Michael Beasley, even though, as you note, they can vote hundreds of times if they wanted to. And apparently the GMs and coaches didn't seem to care about a couple fuming homers. ~lw3

Someone in the All-NBA picks once for Bogut second team and it counts three times. They get more weight than fans for some reason (A.I. the All-Star? I think that's where the real outrage was last season)... And did you look at the numbers and vote for Bogut hundreds of times? No? Neither did anyone in Milwaukee apparently. What's funnier is that I read your ESPN article and critiqued it thoroughly before you even posted it as 'evidence'. And I stand corrected... it wasn't an 3 salty posters on an 18-page thread, it was 4 salty posters on a three-page thread, including a salty Raps fan (Bargs much?) and a Knicks fan (Lee much?). Once more, no comparative stats to back their arguments up, just a fume session, not exactly damning evidence from at most 2 independent posters. ~lw3

Let's look at all this for what it is. A discussion of outrage over Horford's All-Star selection (undoubtedly, the last selection by GMs and coaches in the East) arrived six months after-the-fact, and is expected when a team second in the East at All-Star picking time slides to a distant fourth when it's All-NBA picking time, then collectively blows chunks in the playoffs. Hawks make a decent run at the Eastern Conference Finals last spring and this Bogut-Horford argument (which, again, should be a Bogut-Lee argument) doesn't exist. That said, if the question was. "If healthy, who would deserve a spot in the All-Star Game were it played today and everyone is healthy?" I'm taking Bogut. But that was not the question that was posed. Horford deserved to make it at the time, and he did. ~lw3

Who needs to pretend? Bogut loses out due to winning and media-market indifference. Lee loses out due to winning and defense. And Bogut's defensive prowess became vastly more evident once Salmons fell into their lap. We're good! Links, please! The RealGM worst all-star selection of all-time (lemme guess, two or three salty posters on an 18-page thread?) did pretty good for himself in limited minutes in Dallas. And yes, the All-Star balloting and the All-NBA voting systems are indeed different voting systems by different types of people. ~lw3

Once more, with feeling: Smoove got snubbed by KG due to Larry O'Brien Trophy passes Smoove got snubbed by Horf due to position needs Old-School "4th Options" (like Wennington and Scott Williams) had Ewing and Zo and Deke to get past that Horf did not Bogut and Lee and Brook and (insert losing-team Center here) got snubbed by Horf due to winning, defense, and media-market-indifference Smoove and Bogut got snubbed by Lee due to media-market pity Bogut got the attention he deserved once the Bucks got around to playing winning basketball ~lw3

Which would be true... if the voting procedure was different. Your fan vote counts as one vote. The exec votes count for fives and threes when it's All-NBA time. Take those thousands of additional All-Star votes Al got and make them count for 200% and 400% more and you'll see we're looking at the same trouncing. I trust neither player is wasting precious time bragging, though. And infinitely more than a center on a losing team in the largest market. Indeed, first-place winning basketball is self explanatory. At least in the eyes of the casual fan. And apparently the GMs and coaches, too. ~lw3

You also make an important point, ex. If Bogut wants to get exposure he needs to be on winning teams (and preferably playoff teams), especially in his market. Again, why are we fussing over Horf vs Bogut when the argument should have been Bogut vs New York's Lee? Buried on a team that historically gets no attention when it's worthy, Horford would get the same shaft IF he wasn't in playoffs the last two years AND IF it wasn't looking like his team was going to get there this year either. The Hawks just started getting significant primetime TV slots last year, making the question of multiple players coming from the first-place Hawks that much easier a decision to make. ~lw3

^ And thank you for taking time to defend against that faux outrage, by the way! Looks like you were not alone at the time, either. ~lw3 34%? For every three votes, Horf gets more than four? That's trouncing! lol Hey at least Bogie beat out David Lee (was he even on the ballot? what was up with that?) ~lw3

Yep, that's the handful of posts on one hoops forum that I was looking at. Not apparently the same outrage outside of that. And again, no substantive data to support their outrage. Crickets, indeed! ~lw3

As you probably saw, I beat ya by just a few minutes with that link. And, as I noted, "just as easily could have been..." does not come across as "OMG are you kidding me?" Perhaps we've all got Omar Infante on the brain. I'll accept that argument, but again, All-NBA selections reflect the full season, and obviously Bogut and his surging Bucks did more to bring attention to his game post All-Star Break with his 24 games than Horf and the no-longer-anywhere-near-first-place Hawks could do with his six additional. Do it in January and you get the "edge" for the All-Star Game. Do it after that and you can "trounce" the likes of Horford and Lee for the All-NBA squad. Maybe we should simply move the All-Star Break to the end of the regular season so all our revisionist arguments won't be necessary. ~lw3

Just randomly going through the post, it looks like a select few guys (New Yawkers mostly?) pulling for Lee, but not a whole lotta love there either (lol at the Kaman pic, though). And again, not much substantive data presented to show a reason not to pick Horford. I think I found 2 Bogut mentions in the thread so far. So to recap: Smoove got snubbed by KG due to Larry O'Brien Trophy passes Smoove got snubbed by Horf due to position needs Old-School "4th Options" (like Wennington and Scott Williams) had Ewing and Zo and Deke to get past that Horf did not Bogut and Lee and Brook and (insert losing-team Center here) got snubbed by Horf due to winning, defense, and media-market-indifference Smoove and Bogut got snubbed by Lee due to media-market pity Bogut got the attention he deserved once the Bucks got around to playing winning basketball ~lw3

^ Thanks ex, I'll check it out in a sec. Also, a self-correction, Lee was not an injury replacement as AI wasn't "injured" (personal leave). And a look at the fan results showed fans didn't have much love for Bogut at the time, either. (We know the deal with Bargs. Don't you just love Toronto fans?) FINAL EAST 2010 NBA ALL STAR VOTING RESULTS Guards: Dwyane Wade (Mia) 2,327,550; Allen Iverson (Phi) 1,269,568; Vince Carter (Orl) 1,048,977; Ray Allen (Bos) 710,045; Derrick Rose (Chi) 571,911; Gilbert Arenas (Was) 545,860; Joe Johnson (Atl) 496,255; Rajon Rondo (Bos) 425,590; Jose Calderon (Tor) 292,909; Mike Bibby (Atl) 223,759. Forwards: LeBron James (Clev) 2,549,693; Kevin Garnett (Bos) 1,978,116; Chris Bosh (Tor) 1,164,007; Paul Pierce (Bos) 525,677; Josh Smith (Atl) 475,671; Andre Iguodala (Phi) 313,827; Danny Granger (Ind) 309,808; Rashard Lewis (Orl) 302,743; Michael Beasley (Mia) 277,400; Hedo Turkoglu (Tor) 213,369. Centers: Dwight Howard (Orl) 2,360,096; Shaquille O'Neal (Cle) 856,056; Al Horford (Atl) 270,532; Andrea Bargnani (Tor) 265,024; Brook Lopez (NJ) 223,246; Andrew Bogut (Mil) 202,072; Jermaine O'Neal (Mia) 159,327; Rasheed Wallace (Bos) 131,084; Brad Miller (Chi) 102,994; Kendrick Perkins (Bos) 90,278. ~lw3

LessQualitySIte (Bucks Forum): "Will Bogut Be An All-Star Reserve?" Not even the Bucks fans could muster up any solid reasons for Bogut over Horford at the time. No "travesty of justice" stuff with any data to support it. The biggest criticizer from a national source was more concerned about Smoove vs. Horford, rather than Bogut. http://espn.go.com/b...t-see-in-dallas Quote Josh Smith Quoting John Hollinger's Twitter feed: "Horford and Johnson made the All-Star team and Josh Smith didn't. I guess nobody actually watched the Hawks this year." One theory is that Smith has a reputation as being hard to coach. When coaches do the choosing that can hurt you. There is really no analysis by which Allen Iverson has outplayed Josh Smith this year. If someone can't play because of injury (or if writer Sherman Alexie's poetic plea to Iverson to stand down takes root), Smith is a logical replacement. Quote Andrew Bogut, Joakim Noah, Anderson Varejao After Dwight Howard, who is the best big man in the East? Hard to say. But this squad was always going to need more than one big. Al Horford won the "next best big man" spot, but it could have easily gone to Bogut, who anchors a good Bucks team, Horford's college teammate Noah, who has been the engine that drives the Bulls, or Varejao, who -- despite a reputation as a low-skill energy player -- is clearly the best big man on what has been the NBA's best team in the first half. Again, nothing more than tepid reactions to Horford making it over Bogut (or Noah, or Varejao, or...) Seems like the argument should be "Why did Lee make it as an injury replacement over Bogut?" Let's take that discussion up over at KnickSquawk. ~lw3

:help wanted3: OK, fine, Elson, then. Has Boone gotten better with his FTs? And anyone rockin a two-tone fu-Manchu should be scratched off the list immediately. lol @ Kwame he wants above the vet min. Okayplayer. Will there be any cash left under the LuxTax for a SF? ~lw3

They call that the Crawfish Dribble. ~lw3

Links, please! I even provided homer links and broke their Milwaukee's Best-induced argument down for us in the post that followed it. There was no bellyaching outside of the Land of Cheddar for Bogut in the All-Star Game. At best, he was a candidate for the All-Nice Try team. And if there was, you can guarantee you'd have found a Hawksquawk thread making these arguments on both sides back when it was actually relevant. One more time, Bogut deserved to be the Center making the All-NBA Team, in May, NOT the All-Star Team, in January. Winning makes the difference. And making the 3rd Team All-NBA is not a terribly good definition of "trouncing." That we are having such impassioned arguments in August that none of us had in January should tell you something. One way to get attention about your importance to a team is by having a horrific injury played on national television right before your team could clinch a playoff spot. Even though the Bucks made it to the 5th spot without him somehow (five straight wins). Maybe Salmons should've gotten 3rd Team All-NBA instead! ~lw3

Did Scott Williams ever put up those numbers as a 4th option? Beef Wennington? Al did his so-called 4th option better than anyone in the league, as a center on a 1st place team, and was rewarded for it appropriately. Never mind that Option 3 usually has to come in to spell Option 1. Coaches and GMs don't see options on individual teams, they see a center holding his own on both ends in a prime position for a winning team. Bynum is a 4th option (KB24, Pau, Kardashian) and is a perennial candidate if he stays healthy because he is a Center doin work. If the shoe were on the other foot, we would indeed be whining. And, of course, we would be wrong. ~lw3

Really it's, "Can he stop anyone if he wants to win it?" If so, with vastly improved defensive effort, he'll have an outside shot. Also helping tremendously in his favor is if Jordan Crawford is ready offensively for a sixth-man role. But it appears the job is Teague's to lose, first and foremost. ~lw3

Not much I could find on our end. Here's a handful of arguments from America's Dairyland at the time Bogut got "snubbed" (twice, after big-media-market darling Lee got a late injury selection) http://community.sportsbubbler.com/blogs/the_bob_boozer_jinx/archive/2010/01/27/nba-all-stars-does-andrew-bogut-deserve-a-reserve-spot.aspx http://community.sportsbubbler.com/blogs/the_bob_boozer_jinx/archive/2010/02/11/nba-all-stars-bogut-and-milwaukee-snubbed-again.aspx "Bogut has certainly overpowered Horford ever since he came into the league," says the blogger. Can you find the last time Bogut and Horford played each other (before the All-Star selections)? The article and the handful of head-nodders make it sound as though GMs and coaches would just pop in their ATL-MIL tapes and see, yet they hadn't matched up by then in 2009-10, and they apparently didn't play each other at all in 2008-09. Voters are supposed to make head-to-head choices based on some meaningless contests in 2007-08? ~lw3

... AND because the Bucks started actually winning in those 24 games. As you've shown, Bogut's numbers obviously did not improve from November to January enough for voters to notice. Maybe 25/15/4 blocks would've gotten him some more attention, especially while Jennings struggled after his coming-out show, but short of that, being the same also-ran the Bucks were in November did not help his cause at All-Star selection time. Conversely, Gerald Wallace got the nod over Smoove because he AND the then-losing-record Bobcats got hot (10-4, including a six-game homestand sweep) just in time for the selection show (and since nobody was keen on giving the Hawks 3 All-Stars). If the Bucks were winning at the 'Cats clip at the time, Bogut's case would have been stronger. Here was the thread when Al got selected... were there any impassioned pleas for Bogut in it? (I'm just starting to snoop myself) http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/index.php/topic/343137-looks-like-al-horford-made-the-allstar-team-and-not-josh/ ~lw3 I plussed it for ya clickland. ~lw3

They call that the Shammjesus. ~lw3

All the more reason. With no one ahead of him pecking about, Bogut should have done more to make his numbers stand out (especially that wins stat). Through January, he failed to do so... so the more deserving Center (with a plus-minus showing he's doing something right on both ends of the floor) went to Dallas. I can't penalize Bogut for not contributing enough on a losing team to stand out, but the coaches and GMs can. After the All-Star Break, when the Bucks started winning, in earnest, it was Bogut who made 3rd Team All-NBA... for which he was "more deserving." And Marvin's invite was "stolen" by Carlos Delfino! ;-) ~lw3 Also Horf was "elevated" over Josh (and Jamal, and "cough" Marvin) because none of the three could play the 5. Sure Al can't do much with Dwight by himself, but he does good enough to be a primary backup for an exhibition against the likes of Amar'e and Kaman. ~lw3

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/jury_to_announce_verdict_in_pitino_VudcCuqvguw60pM0vP9lyI ~lw3

How the teams and players were faring at the time of the actual selection effects who was "most deserving" back when it was time to actually pick. Through January 27, Bogut's Bucks were 19-25 and three games behind Charlotte and Chicago in ninth in the East. Lee's Knicks were another game behind them. All the boards and blocks Bogut was pulling down left and right, and yet the only time anyone found it worthy to mention Milwaukee was reminiscing about what that rookie kid did in November against Golden State. At least, until AFTER the actual All-Star Break, when the Deer went on a 15-2 tear and became a legitimate playoff contender. Through January 27, Horford's Hawks were in FIRST place in the Southeast (fancy that) at 29-15, a half game ahead of the vaunted Magic. Horford also led the Hawks and most players (not just centers) in plus-minus at the time (question the stat as we wish, but it's apparently still important to the NBA people making the decisions), while Bogut and David (Ole!) Lee couldn't crack the Top 50. If Dwight Howard is going as a starting Center, why not the cat ringing up double-doubles just ahead of him in the standings? Nahhhh, we'll take the guys six games away from .500 and flailing away outside of the playoff hunt. ~lw3