TROUBLEMAN69

Diesel, if Marvin does not play better than Webster I will be disappointed. Like you I have higher expectations for Marvin than Shelden, because I feel it is more difficult for a rookie (regardless of college classification). I also feel that summer league ball is geared towards wing players, because they are the ones with the ball in their hands.

But they wouldn't have to be cut. There are three spots left, not including S. Jones who can be sent down to the NBDL. The mock Laker trade is interesting, because the contracts are expiring and the Hawks receive a first round pick.

Quote: you can only have 12 players on your roster. If I remember correctly, aren't the rosters now 15 players with 3 inactive?

Quote: The contract will be up in three years. I think he would serve his purpose of being a back up defender off the bench. If you wasn't expecting Shaq, I think you would see the logic. I don't think I'm expecting Shaq, but i do expect more for $8 million per year than Foyle can give. I know if the Hawks do the deal they will take a bad contract along with a youngster/pick, but I hope they just say no to Foyle. I would rather deal with the Pacers and get Foster/pick/Harrison. I really don't like Tinsley, but I would rather take that combo over Foyle.

Diesel, no matter how you slice I don't want any parts of that contract, and I hope the Hawks ownership feels the same way. He was horrible when people on this board wanted to sign him as a free agent (playing time was the excuse then), and he is horrible now even with Damipier gone.

Quote: Just don't suggest that on a Warrior's board. Someone will probably try to stab you in heart with a toothpick. As a Bay Area bred, ex Warrior fan I could care less what they think. lol The Warriors were the first team I ever liked, but after years of bad drafts and bad trades I got fed up (as a 10 year old). My Grandmother was one of the first people in my family to get cable tv back in the early 80's, and thanks to Ted Turner I was introduced to Dominique Wilkins. My family moved to Atlanta in 84, and I've been a Hawks fan every since.

I don't want any parts of Foyle and his ridiculous contract. If the Hawks are going to take on salary, I want some kind of production and unfortunately Foyle is not going to give it. I would rather have one of their young bigs, a first round pick, and the Warriors can throw in Murphy to make the salaries match.

Where are these Alan Henderson comparisons coming from? Hendu never averaged more than 7 boards in a season. He was a "weak" defender, meaning he did not have the strength to hold position in the post. He tried, which gave the illusion to some that he was a decent defender. Having Mutombo behind him helped as well. I will go on record saying that unless he suffers a career ending injury, Shelden Williams will be a better player than Al Henderson and Antonio Davis. I wanted Brandon Roy, and I haven't agreed with many of Knight's picks, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. The Hawks need toughness in the paint, and I believe Williams will bring that. I personally do not project him as a starting center, but as a person who will play the 4 besides Zaza with occassional minutes at the 5. Right now I see a team that has a lot of interchangeable positions, except at the 1. Harrington can still be traded for an upgrade at the point, and possibly a pick in next years draft. Give Williams a chance before we pencil him in as the next Keefe, Hendu, Dale Davis, or Koncak.

Depending on his shot attempts per game, why not? He is only averaging 12 pts and 8 boards against the Mavs, but his playoff average is still 19 and 9 while shooting a "decent" 60%. Is Shaq still the same dominant force that he was 3 or 4 years ago? No. But to say that he is "washed up" is borderline insane.

Quote: Shaw's washed up. He needs to realize that he's a role player now or retire. Yeah, what team would want a center who averaged 20 pts and 9 boards for the season? Am I the only person who is seeing the Mavs sending double teams at Shaq nearly everytime he touches the ball?

Quote: The 1991 Falcons were 2 Legit to Quit. went to the playoffs. Were 10-6 in the regular season. I think they won the california trophy that year... But mainly they were Very well attended. It wasn't until 1998 that the Falcons actually put a winner on the field and went to the superbowl. But that dirty bird team didn't have the attendance that Deion's Falcons did. As a person who has had Atlanta Falcon season tickets for a long time, I have to say you are wrong. In case you haven't noticed the Georgia Dome has been sold out for 3 seasons in a row. There is a waiting list for season tickets. All this for a franchise that has yet to record back to back winning seasons. It is true that Jerry Glanville and Deion Sanders brought excitement to the franchise back in 91, but it is not even close to the excitement generated by Vick and Blank.

Yeah, you guys are right about the steroid addition to the drug policy in 91. I still have a problem with congress wasting money on this nonsense. I'm not, and never have been, a huge Bond's fan. I respect his plate discipline, more than I care for the amount of homeruns he hits. My favorite player in the 80's and 90's was Kirby Puckett. Baseball was my favorite sport until the stike season of 94, and not even the McGwire/Sosa battle could rekindle my interest. I enjoyed the WBC more than the World Series, and I would rather spend a Saturday afternoon watching a high school baseball game rather than heading down to the Ted. Now that I no longer play fantasy baseball, I doubt that I watch more than 10 MLB games a season. All this coming from a guy who as a kid would walk around with a radio listening to SF Giant games (i grew up in the Bay Area). I'm not sure what will draw me back to MLB, but this witch hunt is not the answer.

Quote: Who's to say a team won't use their Allan Houston rule privledges to make space to pick up Al. I thought that rule only allowed a team wiggle room to avoid the luxury tax. I don't believe it applies to the Salary Cap.

Good post KB21, which is why I find it strange that we have all the fire Woody posts. The greatest defensive coach in history could not make this a good defensive team, especially with the lack of a big man with defensive skills. Josh Smith is the only shotblocker on the team, but some people seem to want the Hawks to be the Southern Pistons. We may disagree on the Paul/Williams draft choice, but we both seem to understand that this Hawks team is a work in progress. I believe it will be a successful season if the Hawks continue to progress towards at least doubling their win total from last season. The draft and whatever the Hawks get for Al Harrington, along with the improvement of the youngsters, will put this team in a position to be deeper and better next season.

Quote: If Chicago has all that cap space, why can they only offer him 5 mill? And after the Boozer fiasco, I would not expect any player to not do what is in their best interest. This is the real world and Al will do what he thinks is best for him. With that in mind, I do think Al and the Hawks will try and work out a SNT just beacuse of the 10%. I believe he is referring to years not millions. The best thing for Al is a sign and trade. I was against trading Al, but Zaza does not have the shotblocking skills to play next to Al, and we need to find more minutes for Marvin. We are not winning with Al, so I don't see the point in keeping him around.

Quote: As I was watching the game tonight and I started thinking about Marvin's game. (mostly during the 20 point differential portion of the game) I honestly don't think he ever gets to the level of a Kobe or T-Mac, but I think he is starting to compare very favorably to Rashard Lewis. I'm not stating that Lewis is his ceiling, but I think their skillsets are quite similar, just Lewis is more polished at this point. I agree, but with a few tweaks. I believe Marvin has better ball handling skills, and he is a better rebounder.

Quote: Wrong. Marvin Williams and Joe Johnson give the Hawks a foundation they can build a championship team on. Man, I hope you are right, but right now I don't see it. Quote: Marvin Williams put up the best freshman season on a per minute basis in North Carolina history. Better than Jordan. Better than Worthy. Better than Jamison. Better than Carter. Better than Wallace. Better than Stackhouse. Marvin's per 40 minute numbers at North Carolina were right around 20 ppg and 12 rpg. That's as a true freshman. He averaged 1 point fewer and 2 rebounds more per game as a true freshman on a per 40 minute basis than Carmelo Anthony did as a true freshman at Syracuse. Marvin is also a much better shooter, ball handler, defender, and is a lot more athletic than Carmelo. He will be a much better player than Carmelo in time, and Carmelo is currently averaging 25 ppg. Please stop with the per minute nonsense. Marvin Williams and Carmelo Anthony should not be mentioned in the same sentence right now. Anthony led his team to the National Championship as a freshman, and also helped turn around the Denver Nuggets as a rookie. Marvin Williams HELPED his team win a title as a role player, and so far is coming off the bench as a rookie. Right now, he isn't doing anything better than Carmelo. Hopefully in the future Marvin will become as good or better than Melo, but right now stop with the nonsense. Quote: Marvin Williams will be a small forward that gets 25+ points per game and close to 10 rebounds per game within the next 2-3 years. He will do that because of several key skills needed to do that: 1. He's got the long range shooting ability. 2. He's got the ability to dribble penetrate and pull up for the jumper. 3. He's got the ability to take his man off the dribble and drive the lane. 4. He's got the ability to post his man up and score inside. 5. He's got the ability to be a tremendous finisher in the open court. 6. He's got tremendous instincts for moving without the ball. These skills only add to his 6'9", super athletic frame that has a 7'3" wingspan. Marvin Williams is a rare player. You simply don't find many players that has his size, his athleticism, and his skill level. The same stuff I've heard about Lamar Odom and Tim Thomas, neither of whom can lead a team anywhere. Quote: I've seen nothing in Chris Paul that makes me think he will be any better over the long term than a slew of other point guards...Damon Stoudamire, Kenny Anderson, Terrell Brandon....you don't win championships with point guards. You win them with great players. In this era of the NBA you don't win championships with 6'8" small forwards either, but that didn't stop the Hawks from drafting Marvin did it? Name the last championship team that was built around a 6'8" small forward?

Quote: Quote: I don't want anybody named Babcock ever associated with the Hawks again, but with that being said the jury is still out on whether we received the better talent so far. Right now we are on the short end of the stick. Better talent than what? If the players we picked were better than the talent available.

Quote: Quote: I'm not sure that that is a mistake. At the time, ownership would not let him rebuild and wanted him to work with what we have. If he had to keep JT, Diaw was a great pick to make up for JT's shortcomings (lack of playmaking). He then got the green light to rebuild and got rid of JT, who was basically the reason for Diaw. I still think Diaw was a good pick. If anything, he failed to put Diaw in a situation where he could succeed (different coach? more freedom?). The pick is good though [/indent] The pick was horrible for this team. If ownership was not letting the Hawks rebuild, then they should have went for the guy who was more ready to contribute, which was Howard. The Hawks needed a 2 or 3, and Howard would have fit right in. Quote: This franchise was a mess and he got the green light to scrap it all and start over. Firing Terry Stotts was part of a "get rid of anyone who ever met babcock/kasten move meant to send the league a signal that this is a new place worth considering once again. I think that that made sense as part of an overall overhaul to attract FA's by convincing them to give us a second chance, that we are committed to winning in the long run. I don't think Stotts is all that good anyhow. Now he has a good team so he's doing pretty well, but I don't think we let a gem get away or anything. If there's anyone I wish we had held on to, it's mussleman. Sure Stotts is better than Woody, but that's not saying much [/indent] Still don't get the hype surrounding Musselman on this board. In my opinion Stotts was just as good as Musselman, who did nothing with the Warriors for me to understand the hype. I also don't see how firing Stotts was going to help this team attract more free agents, because the fact of the matter is by firing him the Hawks simply looked like a team in flux. Now guys are calling for Woody's head after two seasons, despite the fact that the talent on this team is young and the Hawks are not even close to a playoff caliber team. Quote: time will tell that one. If Marvin turns out to be the stud that he can be, it won't be a mistake. If Marvin never improves, this is certainly his biggest blunder, but it is not fair to judge Marvin now when we knew he was a project player. More risk, more potential. Nobody knew how good Paul would be [/indent] If Marvin turns out to be the player that most people expect or the stud that KB21/Billy Knight expect, because they seem to be two different things? At best Marvin will probably be a 20-22 ppg guy with about 7 boards per game from the small forward position. Good, but not the type of player that will lead a team to the championship. I see Paul as a 18-20 ppg 8-9 assist guy who will make others around him better. In the long run, I see Paul having the bigger impact.

Quote: What is it about Marvin Williams's upside do you guys not like? I don't have a problem with Marvin, I simply feel that Paul was a better pick, and will have a greater impact on his team. Quote: You know what I see in a team that has Chris Paul, Josh Howard, and Luol Deng as the key cogs? I see a team that will be the 8th seed every year and get put out in the first round. You know what i see in a team that has Marvin Williams, Joe Johnson (Diaw), Childress, and owing the Suns two first round picks? Well we already know the answer because we are currently watching it. See, but the difference in you and I is I understand both versions would be incomplete, but I like the way the pieces in my version fit better than the current pieces. My vision could still include Joe Johnson because Howard is "versatile" enough to play the 2 or the 3. Quote: With Marvin Williams in the fold, I see a team that has the potential superstar that championship teams are built around. I don't see Marvin as a championshp caliber superstar, but simply a very good player (shareef/Jamison) who could be a piece to a contending team. I have seen nothing in two years of watching Marvin that would make me believe that you can build around him. Quote: Josh Childress is an excellent role player that is simply a better athlete and more versatile player than Luol Deng is. Yeah, and that is why in fewer minutes per game Deng is averaging more points and rebounds than Childress. Deng is by no means a finished product, so I'm not understanding why the potential word is not used with him. Quote: Josh Howard is also a one trick pony that has no versatility to his game, which is why BK went with Boris Diaw, who simply brought more versatility to the table than Josh Howard. Yeah, but the fact of the matter is he is a better PLAYER than Boris Diaw. Diaws defense is overrated, so the only thing he is truly better than Howard in is passing ability. Howard is a much better scorer and their rebounding is about the same. Again, a dumb pick by Knight. Quote: Like I said though. Babcock is available. Maybe he would draft the players you wanted, ignoring the better talent in the process. I don't want anybody named Babcock ever associated with the Hawks again, but with that being said the jury is still out on whether we received the better talent so far. Right now we are on the short end of the stick.

Quote: Like I said. There's a Babcock available. Maybe you will get your wish, because a Babcock is the only GM that would have taken Chris Paul over Marvin Williams. You think? I believe Billy Knight is the only GM with a roster full of guys between 6'7"/6'9", who needed a point guard, that would draft Marvin Williams over Paul.

I never wanted Terry Stotts gone, just like at this point I don't believe Woody should be fired. The point of my post was Stotts should have never been fired in the first place. I understand this team is actually in year 2 of rebuilding, but that doesn't excuse mistakes I see being made by Billy Knight.I hated the Boris Diaw pick, I hated the Josh Childress pick, and I hated the Marvin Williams pick. I like certain things about their games, but I felt all along that there were better players available with those choices. Namely Howard, Deng, and Paul.

Quote: I mean I think BK's main mistake is taking Chill over Iggy (time will tell the Marvin/Paul story). That is one of his mistakes, he also took Diaw over Josh Howard, let Terry Stotts walk for no reason, and took Marvin over Paul.

Quote: pick a point guard...any point guard in the NBA...hell, pick one in college or one retired...anybody you want on this planet... now put them on the Hawks...do you actually think we'd be that much better...Joe's numbers are pretty good actually and he hasn't even been playing with these guys that much yet. Let me open by saying that i'm not one of the people here in panic mode, because I knew the Hawks would struggle this year, and probably next. With that being said, if I could choose a point guard retired or playing now, then yes I could find a few guys who would make this team better than the current version of the Hawks. It would take a special "true" point guard to make this team better, not playoff worthy, but better. Let's look at a few things. 1) A good point guard will always make players around him better, because he is able to create easier shots for his teammates. 2) A good point guard is able to control the tempo for his team, which is why they are called floor generals. 3) A good point guard can also create opportunities for himself. Adding a good point guard, Nash for example, would make veterans like Joe Johnson and Al Harrington better. He would also make life easier for a shooter like Salim, simply because he would draw attention to himself with drive and kicks. Even a guy like Marbury would make this team better. Watching the Hawks right now, anybody who has every played point guard for an organized basketball team can see that they lack a floor general. Adding a point guard will not improve the interior defense, but offensively this team would be much better. The Hawks haven't had a true point since Mookie was traded, and please don't mention Bob Sura. I'm on record saying that the Hawks should have drafted Paul or Williams, and I still strongly believe that.

I was seated in section 121 row A. I had a Priest Holmes jersey on, and I spent most of my time looking at the many pretty women at the game. lol