I have a STRONG inkling that we probably aren't going to make any moves this season

[Guest]

I think Butler is a possibility, he's a RFA but the Bulls are notoriously cheap and even a modest deal for him would push them past the tax. Throw him a Gordon Hayward deal and Ole' Jerry Reinsdorf may think twice about pinching his pennies.

Bulls committed salary for next season is already at $61 million. Even with the anticipated rise in cap it'll be interesting to see how the Bulls handle it.

[Admin]

I think Butler is a possibility, he's a RFA but the Bulls are notoriously cheap and even a modest deal for him would push them past the tax.  Throw him a Gordon Hayward deal and Ole' Jerry Reinsdorf may think twice about pinching his pennies.

 

15 million is too rich for my blood. Plus I would assume that means not keeping Sap and that's a non-starter for me.

[Admin]

You really think I'm that big fat detroit lions guy huh? Lol

 

Haha nah I doubt it. Not as much as you talk about the crazy working out and diets that your GF forces on you. Either way you could still take Garnett's number 1 fan out. 

 

And I think you missed the pun in my response to him.

[NBASupes]

15 million is too rich for my blood. Plus I would assume that means not keeping Sap and that's a non-starter for me.

15 mil for Butler is too rich for my blood as well. 

[IheartVolt]

The idea of Kawhi here is fantastic.

The guy is a stud in every aspect of the game

[SalvorMallow]

I didn't say trade Millsap. I said there isn't a center available for a Millsap trade to take place hence will keep him undoubtedly. 

 

 

Millsap is your perfect fit. Horford is my perfect fit. Sap doesn't play defense anywhere near as good as Horford in my opinion. Horford is a more efficient offensive player. Horf is worth the max and Sap isn't worth more than 10-13 mil on the open market. Just reality. 

 

So this is a one star thread for Sap supporters. Might as well be a five star thread for Hawks supporters.

 

In your opinion is right.  Millsap's defense this year has been very solid to say the least..

 

 

Trillsap leads the league in steals, is ranked 11th in the league in defensive rating (right behind tony allen), 12th in the league in DWS, and 11th in the league in defensive +/-.

 

While Horford's raw offensive numbers look good, Paul is the guy who scores when the defense tightens the thumb screws and shots stop falling.  The team will put the ball in Millsaps hands in the post, the high block, or the baseline and let him go to work.  Until the game against Pacers, Horford looked timid in the post both on offense and defense.

 

 

I hope Horford continues to improve, but for now, a very strong case can be made that Paul is the best player on our team, especially when you account for durability.  Nobody could make that argument for Horford.

Edited December 10, 2014 by SalvorMallow

[NBASupes]

 

In your opinion is right.  Millsap's defense this year has been very solid to say the least..

 

 

Trillsap leads the league in steals, is ranked 11th in the league in defensive rating (right behind tony allen), 12th in the league in DWS, and 11th in the league in defensive +/-.

 

While Horford's raw offensive numbers look good, Paul is the guy who scores when the defense tightens the thumb screws and shots stop falling.  The team will put the ball in Millsaps hands in the post, the high block, or the baseline and let him go to work.  Until the game against Pacers, Horford looked timid in the post both on offense and defense.

 

 

I hope Horford continues to improve, but for now, a very strong case can be made that Paul is the best player on our team.  Nobody could make that argument for Horford.

I don't give a shit about defensive stats. Defensive stats say Harden is better on D than Dwight Howard and Andrew Bogut. I watch the games. Horf is a much better defender. He has a lot more responsibility on D than Sap. 

Edited December 10, 2014 by nbasupes40retired

[SalvorMallow]

I don't give a shit about defensive stats. Defensive stats say Harden is better on D than Dwight Howard and Andrew Bogut. I watch the games. Horf is a much better defender. He has a lot more responsibility on D than Sap. 

 

Uh oh, here we go with the "Eye test" again.

 

P.S.  Andrew Bogut is rank 1 in defensive rating in the league.

[MaceCase]

15 million is too rich for my blood. Plus I would assume that means not keeping Sap and that's a non-starter for me.

I think it's more worth it for Butler than Hayward or Parson or whomever given that he's a full on beast defensively in addition to offense.  This is where Ferry @hawksfanatic makes his internet moolah.  You'd just have to work the deal around Sap's early Bird caphold (or even better if he signs for something below it) to try and fit them together.

[NBASupes]

Uh oh, here we go with the "Eye test" again.

 

P.S.  Andrew Bogut is rank 1 in defensive rating in the league.

Two weeks ago it had Harden as #1. 

[MaceCase]

I don't give a shit about defensive stats. Defensive stats say Harden is better on D than Dwight Howard and Andrew Bogut. I watch the games. Horf is a much better defender. He has a lot more responsibility on D than Sap. 

No they don't.  The only defensive stat that says Harden is "better" is DWS which is a cumulative stat so it helps that Harden has played 235 more minutes than Bogut (whom he is tied with) and 403 more minutes than Dwight.

[NBASupes]

No they don't.  The only defensive stat that says Harden is "better" is DWS which is a cumulative stat so it helps that Harden has played 235 more minutes than Bogut (whom he is tied with) and 403 more minutes than Dwight.

 

 

The Rockets have one of the league's best defenses, and James Harden leads the league in defensive win shares (not a typo).

Making fun of James Harden's defense is easy. He's been comically bad on many occasions. It's so easy to make fun of Harden's defense that even Harden himself does it.

But something funny is happening this season: Harden is leading the league in defensive win shares. At 1.04, he's ahead of Tim Duncan (1.03) and Kawhi Leonard, Marc Gasol and Trevor Ariza (all at 0.93).

Harden isn't having as prolific of a scoring season as he had in recent years. His scoring average is down from 25.9 in 2012-13 and 25.4 in 2013-14 to 24.4 this season. He's shooting 39.1 percent from the floor, down from 45.6 percent last year. But the Rockets are 10-3, good enough for third best in the West, and Harden's defense is a factor -- this time, for the right reasons.

Defensive win shares estimate the number of wins a player produces thanks to defensive ability. Last season, Harden had 2.7 defensive win shares. That was in 73 games. Through just 13 games this year, he's already at 1.04. And his defensive rating, an estimate of points allowed per 100 possessions, is also much improved. In his first five seasons in the league, Harden's defensive rating was 108, 107, 106, 105 and 104 respectively. This season, it's 97.

Harden told the Houston Chronicle he has stepped up his focus on the defensive end. "I have been able to anticipate what's next and I have been able to lock in," he said. "A lot of credit to my teammates and coaches. They have done a good job scheming and communicating."

Harden has stepped up and so has Houston, which leads the league in defensive efficiency as a team at 94.5 points per 100 possessions. Having Trevor Ariza (tied for third in the league in defensive win shares) on the team has certainly helped Harden, who has also seen an uptick in his rebounding, up to 6.4 per game from 4.7 last season.

"You have to score the ball and play offense and you have to be able to be able to play defense as well," Harden told the Chronicle. "I feel like I have the offensive part down pretty well. It's a matter of me focusing and being able to do both parts at a high level."

So far this season, Harden has done that. All jokes aside, Harden is improved on the defensive end.

[Guest]

I think it's more worth it for Butler than Hayward or Parson or whomever given that he's a full on beast defensively in addition to offense.  This is where Ferry @hawksfanatic makes his internet moolah.  You'd just have to work the deal around Sap's early Bird caphold (or even better if he signs for something below it) to try and fit them together.

Oh you mean how Paul's EB rights allow the Hawks to exceed the Salary Cap up to 175% of his previous salary (=$16,625,000) but his caphold is for 130% of his previous salary (=$12,350,000)? And then the capholds for DeMarre and Pero are also at 130% of their previous salaries ($3,175,192 and $1,625,000) but then the Hawks can exceed the cap by 104.5% of the average player salary (estimated around $5,885,440 right now)?

Yeah. Pretty shrewd moves. But if the Hawks want to clear room for a max contract offer outside the team then there will need to be big moves. Right now, Sham has the Hawks at ~$68m going into the offseason with the capholds in place. You can knock of Ayón, Brand, and Jenkins to remove ~$9m in holds.

#Almnesty could free up the MAX slot!

[MaceCase]

 

 

ICYMI (that stands for "in case you missed it"), "DWS"= Defensive Win Shares and I already broke down how that stat is tabulated rather concisely.  You posting an article doesn't change that you're wrong, you might as well say "look, a rabbit!" but it doesn't add to your point.

[Guest]

Haha nah I doubt it. Not as much as you talk about the crazy working out and diets that your GF forces on you. Either way you could still take Garnett's number 1 fan out.

And I think you missed the pun in my response to him.

I just got it...:-/

You have to excuse my friend, he's a lil slow...the town ur looking for is back that way..-dumb n dumber

[Admin]

I think it's more worth it for Butler than Hayward or Parson or whomever given that he's a full on beast defensively in addition to offense. This is where Ferry @hawksfanatic makes his internet moolah. You'd just have to work the deal around Sap's early Bird caphold (or even better if he signs for something below it) to try and fit them together.

No doubt worth it more than those guys, although Hayward has surprised me this year and I don't think Butler could put a team on his back offensively.

If you can get Butler and Sap then you're really talking. But I'm skeptical that it could get done.

[AHF]

Defensive metrics are definitely not as useful as offensive ones, but Harden stands out as a huge outlier for his career.  Give it some more time and see where he is farther into the season.  His DRtg and DWS/min are WAAAYYY better than anything he has ever done in his career and he definitely benefits statistically from playing on a team that is good defensively (like people in the past such as Carlos Boozer have gotten big boosts from playing with strong defense like Chicago).

[Admin]

Oh you mean how Paul's EB rights allow the Hawks to exceed the Salary Cap up to 175% of his previous salary (=$16,625,000) but his caphold is for 130% of his previous salary (=$12,350,000)? And then the capholds for DeMarre and Pero are also at 130% of their previous salaries ($3,175,192 and $1,625,000) but then the Hawks can exceed the cap by 104.5% of the average player salary (estimated around $5,885,440 right now)?

Yeah. Pretty shrewd moves. But if the Hawks want to clear room for a max contract offer outside the team then there will need to be big moves. Right now, Sham has the Hawks at ~$68m going into the offseason with the capholds in place. You can knock of Ayón, Brand, and Jenkins to remove ~$9m in holds.

#Almnesty could free up the MAX slot!

That's good stuff right there! I still don't think the pair will sign for cheap enough combined to keep us under the LT and we know we aren't crossing that unless we have a singular billion dollar owner.

[Guest]

That's good stuff right there! I still don't think the pair will sign for cheap enough combined to keep us under the LT and we know we aren't crossing that unless we have a singular billion dollar owner.

As it currently stands, the Hawks would have to make some major moves right now in order for them to accumulate enough salary that they would be in danger of the luxury tax next year. So I'm not sure that is something to worry about.

The Millsap deal is unique because the Hawks essentially have an extra $4m in cap space they can fiddle with if they have a wink-wink understanding with Paul. But Paul still has a caphold of ~$12m, you'd need to account for that in fiddling with numbers of how the Hawks could offer a max contract to a free agent (or acquire one via trade). The Millsap layout is a smart move and helps the Hawks, but it's not this huge game-changer. It's really more evidence of Ferry mapping out a better plan than our other GMs have in the past.

[Admin]

Well that's good to know. I think we have proven we are willing to stand behind Millsap as a franchise so he's got to respect that.

And you're pretty much of the opinion that unless we make trades with our higher salaried guys and bring back more than we send out that we should be safe from the LT regardless of what we do in FA?