A-town Hawks

Quote: You are if....you want to keep Josh Smith at any price. You are not if...you think he is not worth it. If you fall in the latter camp you have not been a fan this last decade, have no understanding of the enthusiasm and interest this guy brings to the average Atlanta sports fan and you have the basketball iq of...well.......a rock. Marvin is a bust. He has no heart. Horford is a different player. Smith brings people to the stands, gets people excited and with some continued offensive work will be a perennial allstar in this league. Even though Im on the keep Smith at all cost bandwagon with you Juice, this was a horrible post single out all the other posters with reasons to not keep smith. But anyways, the way I see is it is maybe you all are right that Smith isnt a max type player and maybe he won't ever be. But the truth is that Smith is the "face" of our franchise, to the non hawks fan who thinks of the Hawks they think Smoove, and when they think Smoove they think high-flying dunks and fun. Smoove it our biggest market, and for this horrible ownership group they would be losing MORE money watching our "face" leave for nothing, then who's going to garner any interest from the hawks??? Smith MUST stay.

I think the Utah comparison is very much like our case here in ATL. Boozer like Al has no inside presence next to him, he has another big who like to drift around the baseline and high post and ignitiate his offense from there. Most opposing Centers are too slow to go out that far so instead they are put on Boozer who likes to play closer in at the high post. Boozer ABUSES them for it not because he is the tallest or even the strongest, because he is way to quick and skilled for a Center to D him. Thats what Al is, Al can be our Center and still be at the High post with Smith liking to be a slasher and starting his drives from outside the paint. Just because Al is listed at Center doesn't mean he is obligated to the low post. Different offenses are created for different teams and are adapted to the players. Now defensively I have no problems with Al at Center position, the kid has one of the highest B-ball IQ's i've seen in a looong time, and that will only get better with time. Al knows his strengths and he has showed us very early in his career that he can defend Center's without a problem. Not once do I recall watching a game and saying "man, Al sucks on D" or "Bring in Zaza to defend him". The kid handles his, ofcourse he may give up a good game every once in awhile to a freak like Yao or Dwight but thats nothing out of the ordinary. Im all for bringing in a defensive 7 footer to give us more shotblocking, depth, and presence but I have no doubts that Al is able to do a beautiful job for us at the 5 and will develop no matter if he's listed in the book as a PF or C.

Quote: All that stated though Crime Dog... we need more honesty on the board. We're not playing Al at Center because of his skillset or lack of Athleticism. Be Honest. We're playing him there because we have a log jam at our forward positions and Center was open. He's not a Center. My mentioning Karl Malone was never about weather or not Horf has his skillset. It was about the stupidity of playing a natural PF at Center. Even though Utah could have done that, they rather go out and get the Mark Eaton's or the Isaac Austin's and play them there and allow Malone to stay at PF. Were playing AL at the 5 because Smoove has proven to us that he is not as valuable nor as effective as at the 3 and he needs to be a 4 to fulfill his potential, and because Horford has proven to us that he can successful handle the Center position and still show us the potential that we all see in him today.

Quote: This is what I called Fiddle Faddle... Smoove is NOT a shooter, and I know you brought up the fact that our current SF Marvin was just 1-10 on 3pt shooting this past season, and he's certainly not a great shooter either. But with that said do you notice how many people on this board has had enough of him? What does this board's thoughts have to do with weather or not Smoove should play 3? How is that fiddle faddle?? It's the same point brought up earlier with Kirelenko's move to the 3. He was a big player for the Jazz when he was a 4 and boozer wasn't there, then when he had to go to the 3 you saw his whole game and value go down the drain. I think that can easily happen to smoove for the same reasons I posted in my so called "fiddle faddle" that you failed to comprehend. We need to learn from there mistake. Getting Boozer was a good move for them, no doubt, but they basically destroyed the career of kirelenko in the process. Imagine if they somehow used Kirelenko the right way as a 4, he begins to do the same things he used to, and if Boozer still is Boozer. Maybe they would actually get to the finals. But were in a much better position then they are unlike Boozer, Al has shown us that he can man down the Center position and do it at a high level in his rookie year! Lets let him get even more experience at the 5 and let his body/game develop to be even more adapted to the stress of being/defending at the 5. Then let Josh flourish where he has been best at the 4. A horford smith frontline in a few years will be ELITE.

Quote: Quote: Diesel, Its not only defensive problems that having Smoove at the SF would bring. Its probably moreso offensively that we would be tampering with his potential in this league. Smoove is NOT a shooter, and I know you brought up the fact that our current SF Marvin was just 1-10 on 3pt shooting this past season, and he's certainly not a great shooter either. But with that said do you notice how many people on this board has had enough of him? and how many people are only willing to give him 1 more year to improve on this or else its the boot? Having Smith at the SF would be 10x WORSE! as he isnt even near the mid range shooter marvin is allowing the opposing teams SF to sag off of Smith at the 3 and provide help D on the man YOU say would be better at the 4 AL HORFORD! Also the difference between the already bad Marvin Williams at the 3 and the absolutely horrible thought of having Smith at the 3 is that with Marvin being 1-10 on 3pt fg's atleast it says that Marvin cant shoot the 3 and is not willing to shoot the three. Having the trigger happy at times/wild smoove there dont be suprised to see 1-50 on 3pt fg's by the all star break! This is fiddle faddle. Right now... Smoove plays a Sf's game offensively. Think about it. He stands on the perimeter. He drives sometimes. He's left wide open in the midcourt far more than Marvin. He rarely plays in the post. Our offense has struggled because we don't get consistent scoring from down low. Therefore, we go as our shooters go. When JJ and Bibby and Smoove are off, we're off. If we were able to bring in a post player, our gameplan doesn't change (as it relates to Smoove). He can still do the same things he would do if we called in a 4. The only difference is that we would have another player in the low post who can score and rebound. Moreover, we would take Horf to the high post where I believe he'd be more comfortable. You cant just go and say someones post which is listing reasons that contradict yours is just all fiddle faddle without disproving anything i said. Come on you should know that. Smoove does play a PF games very well, he does it in a different fashion than most PF's in this leagueand I don't see why we should penalize him or doubt him for it. Smith in my opinion is like Amare he uses his quickness and athleticism to do alot for him. Amare like smith isnt the greatest in the low post but he does alot of hard drives that get him close to the rim and on the line from the high post and from the short baseline as well. Smoove is like Amare in that matter but is less of a midrange shooter making even Amare more suitable for the SF than Smith is, and you dont see anyone saying the Amare should a 3.

Quote: So the organization who took a HUGE chance on him, nurtured him, and gave him the opportunity to earn this big payday AND offered him a damn nice payday next year gets the fault for Smith being a RFA while Smith gets none of the blame for rejecting their more than respectable offer? I swear you have soemthing against Josh, He is a human, who chose to wait and explore all the options and possiblities that comes with the NBA buisness. Whats the problem with that? Any body would want to see if they can get their team to offer more money for their services. I know that Josh loves being a hawk, and he just wants to see if can get the most out of it, dont hate the kid hate the buisness.

Diesel, Its not only defensive problems that having Smoove at the SF would bring. Its probably moreso offensively that we would be tampering with his potential in this league. Smoove is NOT a shooter, and I know you brought up the fact that our current SF Marvin was just 1-10 on 3pt shooting this past season, and he's certainly not a great shooter either. But with that said do you notice how many people on this board has had enough of him? and how many people are only willing to give him 1 more year to improve on this or else its the boot? Having Smith at the SF would be 10x WORSE! as he isnt even near the mid range shooter marvin is allowing the opposing teams SF to sag off of Smith at the 3 and provide help D on the man YOU say would be better at the 4 AL HORFORD! Also the difference between the already bad Marvin Williams at the 3 and the absolutely horrible thought of having Smith at the 3 is that with Marvin being 1-10 on 3pt fg's atleast it says that Marvin cant shoot the 3 and is not willing to shoot the three. Having the trigger happy at times/wild smoove there dont be suprised to see 1-50 on 3pt fg's by the all star break!

Quote: Quote: Quote: This question is relevant mainly to defense, can Horford defend centers? I disagree and circle takes the square. The question is not limited to defense. Let me ask you this. IF Utah had found out that Karl Malone can do a credible Job playing Center... Do you think it would have been in their best interest to move him from PF to C? This is what you guys who say he does OK at Center are saying. You're saying... to hell with Horf ability as a PF, he does OK at C. I say, he might be an allstar PF. We have to play him at his natural position to find out how good he really is. It's a disservice to do otherwise. Karl Malone faced centers all the time. Any team that was stupid enough to guard Malone with a center would end up fouling out a ton because Karl was ultra-aggressive and would go right by a center. He had a very good faceup game. McHale was always being guarded by centers like Kareem or Moses in the finals. Boozer and Al Jefferson get guarded by centers almost exclusively because they don't play next to real post threats. You look at Amare this season and say "wow, look what happened when HE moved to PF". The same [censored] was being said when he switched to C and his points jumped by 5.5 with a 9% increase in FG%. The difference was he was being single covered by a PF as he faced up instead of constantly being doubled. The mechanics of it work like this. Unless you have an even greater post threat next to you, you are going to draw the defensive assignment from the opposing team's best post defender. If we had Biedrins, or Dalembert, or Chandler, or.... the strongest post player is going to guard Al because he is waaaay more likely to try and back them down. Hell, if we had Brad Miller or Zydrunas Ilgauskas you'd have the same result because neither one of those cats play down low any more. If Al ever wants to be anything on offense he's going to have to become a lot more aggressive facing up. The only way you can get away with not exploiting that mismatch is if you are a true low post beast, and unfortunately for Al, he doesn't have the size (Yao), athleticism (Dwight), or post facility (Duncan) to be an elite offensive player without a very good faceup game (which Yao and Duncan have by the way). Look at Moses Malone. When he started out he was smaller than Al, he put on muscle but Al certainly has the frame to. Moses did his damage by being ultra aggressive against centers, he didn't need another guy next to him so he could back down power forward. Elton Brand gets guarded by centers and he's a lot shorter than Al, he pulls them away and drives by them. Al is nothing like Karl Malone when he came into the league. Not to say Al can't gain that aggressiveness but you make it seem like calling a guy "power forward" means that he can only be guarded by power forwards. AGREED

Quote: Quote: This question is relevant mainly to defense, can Horford defend centers? I disagree and circle takes the square. The question is not limited to defense. Let me ask you this. IF Utah had found out that Karl Malone can do a credible Job playing Center... Do you think it would have been in their best interest to move him from PF to C? This is what you guys who say he does OK at Center are saying. You're saying... to hell with Horf ability as a PF, he does OK at C. I say, he might be an allstar PF. We have to play him at his natural position to find out how good he really is. It's a disservice to do otherwise. The same goes for Josh Smith, Josh is a boderline all-star at he PF position and is just 22 with a whole lot more to improve on. He has proven to us already that he cannot handle playing at the three offensively or defensively, so why move him there? Just to see if Horford would become the borderline allstar at the 4 that Josh currently is? This is a good problem to have. I say we keep Al where he is because he has shown that he can handle the Center position and can function at high level there. Lets wait to see if he can become the allstar where all hoping he can becoming right where he is. All Horford needs to defend these opposing Centers to add some more bulk to his pretty good frame and more leg/core work. Thats it. Dont waste the talent of a future star (josh), just to see if another potential star (Al) would have a greater chance of stardom in a different position. Especially if that potential star (Al) shows no signs of not reaching his potential in the spot he's currently in.

Quote: This is bad even for a stathead like yourself... Quote: Smith didn't play the 3 hardly at all this season and the Hawks gave up 7 ppg fewer when Smith was playing. http://www.82games.com/0708/07ATL11C.HTM During the previous season he played the 3 much more frequently and the Hawks gave up 1.2 more ppg when he was playing. http://www.82games.com/0607/06ATL11D.HTM It is pretty clear he is better suited defensively at the 4. If you just took the two bolded statements, it's evident that the conclusion has no premise. IF Smith played the three "Hardly at all".. .how do you know he's better suited for the 4. Moreover, under what circumstances this season did Smoove play the 3? Obviously, it wasn't under normal circumstances. If there was ever a case of agenda manning... This is it agenda man!!! I see where your getting mixed up diesel, You have to that post over a few times to understand it. What I think he means is that in the 06-07 season Smith played alot more SF because that was the season with Marvins hand injury and he was out for some time, so Smoove played alot more SF. And during this season which saw alot of Smith at the 3, the hawks gave up 1.2 more ppg with smith on the court opposed to him not being on the court. Now for this pass season where we saw Smith more featured as the PF due to his official move in that spot, Marv being healthy and having more time ar the 3, Hawks lack of Big man depth. The Hawks gave up a whopping 7 ppg FEWER when Smith was playing. (when he was playing most of that time was at PF). So this concludes that Smoove is better defensively for our team when he is at the 4.

Amare is not as mature or tough as Horford is so he may feel as abused by playing out of position. But I think if anything Horford really showed to us he is fine with playing the Center position, because if there was any doubt that he could play there it would have arose during his rookie season, we would've seen a him hit a rookie wall or something where the coaching staff would see that he needs to be a PF. But nothing like that, arose so I think he is fine in his role and is only worried about getting better as a player and team.

Due to the make-up of our team with Josh flourishing at the 4 spot for us, and Horford having a amazing rookie season while playing Center when most say he is a PF. I see no reason to even look at a starting C this summer or anytime in the near future. I think Horf and Smoove complement each other perfectly together as bigs and we shouldn't look at trading Smith for a Center. Only reason to trade for a Center is for depth IMO. These two together are cornerstone bigs and I can see them as a formidable frontcourt during a deep championship run. Thoughts?

I think all this Smoove trade talk is irrelevant. Personally I wouldnt trade Smoove for any of those guys Dolfan mentioned. As none of them are worth what Smith brings. Smoove is still blooming offensively and defensively he's already a anchor for us altering shots and blocking some. The kid has a poor jumpshot and not great footwork in the low post but he still manages to use his athleticism and agressiveness to get about 18ppg a night, Imagine when he does have a decent jumpshot and a good low-post game in his prime! Josh is the FACE of this franchise right now, JJ is our leader but to the non ATL fans they see Josh as head of our team and thats not a bad look, from the former slam dunk champ. NONE of those players mentioned by Dolfan can replace what Josh has done here and will do here. So just match the offer sund and lets look at doing something to upgrade the 3 spot. Richard Jefferson???

Yea I can't wait for that to start. I think the biggest priority is establishing Acie's confidence and letting him know he has the green light to shoot and score like the old A&M days. I wonder if David Anderson would be attending, that would be really interesting. Summer league line-up?: PG: Acie SG: West SF: ????? PF: Anderson C: Horford

Quote: You're giving up too much for him. I do not believe it will take this much. I would offer Marvin for RJ straight up. If the Nets balk, I'd through in Solomon. I believe Zaza is more valuable than most on the board. We needs to have Zaza to play up in his contract year. That wouldnt even work under the CAP rules. But as I said in my first deal mentioned I think a Marv/Speedy/2010 1st for Jefferson deal is the way to go.

Quote: RJ is a quality young player and i would bet they could get more for him than we would be willing to offer. There is a rumor out about RJ going to LA for Odom. I dont know about that, the market for a swing guy like RJ isn't too high now a days with only a few teams needing some one like him. The highest I would be willing to go is a Marv/Chillz(SNT) package and I think that beats or atleast is up there with the Lamar for RJ swap that LA turned down last year and probably will turn down again.

Quote: I'm high on RJ but I don't think we can get him, Diop, FJ, and we're def. not keeping Salim. That lineup would more than likely win the east against OLD Boston. I disagree, I think we can get him. He is def. open for trade the Nets are not hiding that fact. If the Nets dont bite on taking back Speedy's contract, then I think giving up a little more wont hurt too much. How about a modified trade of: Marvin/Speedy/Zaza/2010 1st for Jefferson/Hassell Line-up (with potential signings): Bibby/Law Johnson/F.Jones Jefferson/Chillz/West Smith/Malik Allen/Solo Horford/Diop/Solo

I think a guy like Fred Jones from NY would love to come here, and I think he would be welcomed. He can create for himself is a good shooter plus he can defend. He can be our James Posey, for a much cheaper price. Other guys maybe Devin Brown, Devean George, Malik Allen, Eduardo Najera, Juan Dixon, Matt Barnes, Kareem Rush, Dan Dickau, Quinton Ross, Keyon Dooling, Francisco Elson, Roger Mason, Primoz Brezec

Quote: Well I like Richardson but not to give up Smoove. Smoove will be a top ten player in this league within two years. I say we go Marvin/Chillz for JR. You say star power; Smoove's star is on the rise big time. Just wait till we get some national TV dates. Law/Bibby JJ/? Richardson Smoove Horford. Agreed. I dont really mind that trade if Smith isnt involved because getting a guy like Richardson does help. But giving up Smith is a horrible price to pay.

What do you guys think of RJ from NJ? He is currently on the block and I think he can be had for pretty cheap. I love the idea of him on the team because he embodies everything we need at SF position that Marvin isnt giving us. 1) RJ is a very good defender and defends the opposing teams best perimeter threat nite in and nite out. 2) He is a extremely good slasher and gets to the line with great frequency and I think that can really help Smooves game as he likes to do similar things RJ has mastered and RJ will get teams in the penalty much quicker allowing Smith to live at the line. 3) Jefferson brings the 3pt shooting were all begging Marv to develop, his 3pt % is comparable to a very known shooter in the game Micheal Redd. 4) Richard is not only a willing second option playing behind a volume shooter like Vince Carter but he is a VERY efficient one as well (46% FG) . Averaging about 22ppg in a offense mostly centered around Carter. 5) We all talk a great deal about how this team needs veterans and a veteran presence, you dont get much more "veteran" than RJ. He is very level headed and can be a great role model to the young guys. How about Marvin/Speedy/2010 1st for Jefferson Our line-up (with some potential signings): Bibby/Law/Salim Johnson/Fred Jones/Chillz Jefferson/Chillz Smith/Zaza Horford/Diop/Solo

First if all if I'm a Griz fan, I would be call for Chis Wallace's (Memphis GM) head! What a bad move spending all that potential FA money on Marc Gasol. A guy who hasnt proven anything in this league. But if this is creditable I'm happy 5yr-62mil is fine with me

Although I like the emphasis Woody has put on defense and rebounding, I like many cant stand his offensive scheme. I think over the past years this team offensively played many different ways somtimes they were running and gunning and others they were in the half court slow game, and I think this constant switching up was due to Woody not giving the team a offensive identity. We played alot how the other team allowed us to play not how WE wanted to play, and that cant be the case moving forward if we want to win. I know we all can remember the uptempo games we would have against teams like GS/PHX/SEA but then those grind it out games against DET/BOS/SAS those teams had our team play the way THEY wanted to play, and I believe that is a case of Woody being dominated by opposing coaches. Watching series like the PHX/SAS one what you see are two teams/two coaches/two offensive styles, trying there best to dominate the opposing style and establish the tempo that team wants. I dont feel that offensively from these hawks. Hopefully woody engineers this team to swing the ball like adelman's kings and take the best shot.

Yea I heard it to... and its definetly one of da best albums I've heard. Definetly buying it June 10th

Yea maybe you guys are right about not adding the 1st rounder in the Redd trade. I just added it, thinking we should kind of stay away from the draft. We dont need to get younger. But yea maybe we shouldnt add it in this trade cuz a Marvin/Bibby package should be enough. Cwell, I think were putting too much on Acie. Although he will be a good player someday hopefully, I dont think he is ready to start over Ford who has proven he is a very capable PG in this league. So I think that not getting Ford just to have Law start isnt the best move for us.

I think the man to get is Micheal Redd from the Bucks. I've seen rumors that he is available and is not too happy in his current situation and wouldn't mind to relocate. I think his shooting would improve JJ's game immensly. Especially JJ's post-up game, which im sure more of us would like him to exploit more often. I think he would do alot for Smoove and Horford as well, who's post-up games should be improved over the summer and featured in the offense next year. Marv/Bibby(exp)/2009 1st rnd pick top 5 protec for Micheal Redd Then I've seen alot about Calderon being the man that the Raptors want to keep up in Canada, and Calderon mentioning that he wants to be a starter. Meaning Ford is expendable. I think he can be had for a cheaper price than he is worth. Sign &Trade Chillz for TJ Ford Our Lineup: Ford/Law JJ/Stoudemire Redd/Richardson Smoove/Zaza Horford/Solo Coach: Mike Fratello This team in my opionion is ready to finals contenders in the weak East. I think this team can still be tweaked in terms of strengthening the bench but this deffinetly is a good start towards improvement. All Fratello needs to do is instill a winning attitude, toughness, and defense into these guys and I see no reason why they can't take over the east next year. Thoughts?