RedDawg#8

Does anybody remember against Boston in the playoffs, game 1 in atlanta the announcers said something about Mike Woodson placing an 18 sec shot clock on the team to force us to to play up-tempo? we struggled a bit at the jump but by the end of the 1st quarter we had Boston on their heels. I would love for this to be our mindset to start every game, esp since we tend to start slow and have to play catch up.

I do agee that it starts on the defensive end though. We are young an athletic, thats our biggest strength, we have to take advantage of it.

"When you go out to compete against guys of that caliber, what do you hope to gain personally"

Josh " uhm....you know uhm........nothing really, im just going out for one thing only... to make the team"

For those of us that hoped that his game would benefit from this experience, its not looking good so far.

How much more of a difference tho, Smith does alot of great things, but alot of boneheaded things as well. And just because the 76ers were willing to overspend on him (just like they did Brand) doesnt mean much. 8 mil isnt as much as you re making it seem.

Parker aint all that, and hes a backup swingman, not a starting SF/PF. Villanueva int as good as Marv, but he was asked to play a bigger roleon a sucky team. Dude is a soft 6-11 SF/PF, he gets little respect to me. and Yes Artest and Ariza who some wanted instead of Marv, even Battier are all older and put up lower stats than Marv did. But because they are vets with name recognition, they are more liked to our fans. We have a good thing going with Marv here. He shoots better tha Ariza, is more athletic than Artest and Battier combined and bigger as well. As Atlanta sports fans, we have to learn to appreciate the assests we have and not get over come with the love of other teams players who do not even perform at the same level as ours just because the world likes them more.

I would love to see Marv go one on with those guys you listed, he'd run around Charlie V, Jump over Artest and Battier. the only person that would give him a good fight is Ariza, they are very similar styled players.

I get it now, this isnt about his talent, or game or chemistry. This is about where he was drafted. It makes sense now.

Diesel, you are right. Marvin will NEVER live up to the 2nd pick of the 2005 Draft. We cant take that back though

Chris Paul will never be a hawk

Deron Williams will NEVER be a hawk.

BK messed up. YES, we all know this, but Marvin isnt to blame. He didnt draft himself with that pick.

Its 5 years later. Marvin has not become an All-Star, but he HAS become a solid NBA SF. and he HAS shown the ability to become a go to guy WHEN HE IS NEEDED.

Marvin has a game that is so smooth that you dont realize the 14 and 6 he puts up nightly. He is so smart on the court that you dont appreciate him letting the Crowd favorites (Joe and Josh) get theirs while he sits back a chips in here and there. I know it annoys you that he doesnt light it up every night, but you have to let it go. Gortat just got the MLE for playing 11 mpg and avging 3 and 3 in the playoffs. so you bet your azz Marvin is worth every bit of 8 mil per.

OKay, this is getting annoying.

Some dont like it, some dont mind what Woody said.

But I think we can ALL agree that instead of saying:

"I hope we can get 4th"

the better response would have been

"If we play to our full potential, we can beat any of those teams"

which is very true as well. Realistically speaking, we CAN beat them, and Realistically speaking, we handed several games away this year. So being a REALIST as some of you prefer, if we do handle our business we can easily win 55 games. (thats 10 more). and realistically speaking, theres a chance that one of those teams can fall, it happens. so realistically, we can finish better than 4th.

Lets hope for a championship, not 4th place. If we end up with 4th, fine as long as we fought hard every night to get it. No more looking UP to the Celtics, no more worshipping the King, no more laying down to the Magic. When we play our best, we can run all over anybody in the league. So, how bout we try to do that instead of trying to be politically correct and stay in our place.... which Woodson is happy to say is a comfortable 4th.

14 pts and 6 rebs, for a non All-Star small forward playing on a playoff team is above the the league average.

How is Smith so much more loved when he averaged 15.6 and 7.2.

So Smith is worth his contract, ( at 1.5 more points, and 1 more rebound per game while playing 1 more minute a game) but marvin isnt worth 2 million less.

I really dont understand the evaluation of our players worths around here Diesel. You rather pay Smith his money to dribble up the court, turn it over, get easy fast break dunks, shoot 58% from the free throw line, and avg 15.6 and 7.2 THAN Pay Marv 8 mil to take 220 FEWER attempts (in 8 fewer games), and only avg 1.5 less points, 1 less rebound, 190 FEWER turnovers (Marv avg the FEWEST turnovers of any of our starters btw)

I think we need to look at the bigger picture here. For a guy who was the 5th scoring option behind Bibby, Joe, Smith, AND Flip. to put up those numbers, that may not blow you away, but it is very VERY good compared to other non All-Star SF's. we need to get off his back and appreciate that. So he is not aggresive, he still averages well for his position. Everybody on the team cant average 20 pts a game.

So please Diesel, why arent you bashing Smoove, because according to your judgement, he is GROSSLY Overpayed

Everything sounds good to me. Glad he wants to learn, hope he signs that contract soon as he said. Excellent answer about the fast break too lol

I cant wait to see him and Rondo battle it out in the east in the future for years to come

Imagine the Hawks record, if we had just one legit guy we could throw the ball down low to, that could score on the low block?

No more excuses guys. LOSER'S make excuses.

2004 Finals, Detroit didnt make excuses. a team of 4 cast offs and a rookie SF Dominated against 4 Hall of FAME Players.

So what if our frontcourt is undersized,

Ben Wallce- 6'9 240 and Rasheed 6'11 230

vs

Shaq 7'1 325 and Carl Malone 6'9 259

so why cant

AL Horford- 6-10 245 and Josh Smith 6-9 240

win against

Shaq, Varajeo, Dwight, Lewis, Perkins, Garnett, Rasheed...etc

Why cant Joe and Bibby beat:

Nelson and Vince

Rondo and Allen

MO and West

Anything is possible, thats why you play the seson and not just settle for pre-season paper champs. F#$@ BOS, CLE, and ORL. F### DET, CHI, WAS. We have to go out and take what we want and stop playing down to people. Imagine if DET in 2004 decided to do what the world wanted and let Malone and Payton get their ring so they could retire. You cant base your succes off of other people expectations of you, but on your expectations of yourself. until we get this, we will never reach our potential. as that columnists said, we will be PETER PAN and never grow up. We will stay in NEVERLAND and watch the adults win the championship year after year while we are happy just playing for fun and the 4th seed.

I understand everybody who is defending Woody right now, and as loyal fans thats very cool. Still, I do think that its a slap in the face to us fans who support this team and want this team to win it all one day. If we play like we did this past season then sure, we WOULD be lucky and happy to attain the 4th seed. The thing is, that if we play to our Maximum potential, this same roster CAN win a championship. Im so tired of us ATLANTANS always settling for average. We have beaten the likes of the Magic, Cavs, Lakers, Nuggets before. All 4 teams that were in the conference finals. Why cant we elevate our expectations to the point where we believe we can consistently win against them and anybody else for that matter. Who knows what will happen next year. If we play to our maximum potential:

Joe could be an MVP

Josh could be an all-star of Defensive player of they year

Crawford could be 6th man of the year

Bibby could lead the league in 3pt shooting

Marvin could become our 2nd leading scorer

Al could avg 15 and 10

We could win 55+ games

We could make to the finals

We could win it ALL

Who thought that the Magic would have made it to the finals THIS TIME LAST YEAR? or that Pistons would have won it all that year, or that Lebron would have led his Cavs to the finals in his 3rd/4th season (i forget which) or that the Heat would win it all on D-Wade's shoulders? Thats why you play the season, thats why you dont place 4th place expectations before you are even done filling out your roster. Anything can happen. Is it likely, probably not. but if you dont even TRY or Expect to acheive great things, the you will NEVER achieve them. But if you DO try and DO BELIEVE that those things can happen, then there is a CHANCE. and all 30 teams in the league start from the same place. its the ones that expect great things, who seperate themselves from the rest. Im tired of being "THE REST". I want us to start acting like we can win it all, thinking we can, and one day DOING IT

Tune in and reminisce (i dont how to spell that word) Josh Smith's coming out party to the NBA!!!

That list isn't accurate. I know JO has a player option for this season for $20 million which he is sure to cash in.

You are correct. they put asterisk's by players with options. I believe the key is:

* Player option

** Team Option

*** Buy out or opt out clause

this doesnt include some players like Brandon Bass and Joe Smith who were only listed as Forwrds. I was too lazy to sift all the PF's out from the SF's

Player Pos Age Exp Type OldTeam Anthony, Joel C 26 2yrs RFA MIA --- ---

Blount, Mark C 33 10yrs UFA*** MIA --- ---

Booth, Calvin C 33 10yrs UFA SAC --- ---

Collins, Jason C 30 8yrs UFA MIN --- ---

Curry, Eddy C 26 8yrs UFA*** NYK --- ---

Elson, Francisco C 33 6yrs UFA* MIL --- ---

Ely, Melvin C 31 7yrs UFA NOH --- ---

Foyle, Adonal C 34 12yrs UFA ORL --- ---

Gray, Aaron C 24 2yrs RFA CHI --- ---

Hollins, Ryan C 24 3yrs RFA DAL --- ---

Hunter, Steven C 27 8yrs UFA*** DEN --- ---

Ilgauskas, Zydrunas C 34 13yrs UFA*** CLE --- ---

James, Jerome C 33 10yrs UFA* CHI --- ---

Magloire, Jamaal C 31 9yrs UFA MIA --- ---

Mihm, Chris C 29 9yrs UFA MEM --- ---

Moore, Mikki C 34 12yrs UFA BOS --- ---

Mutombo, Dikembe C 42 18yrs UFA HOU --- ---

Nesterovic, Rasho C 33 11yrs UFA IND --- ---

Petro, Johan C 23 4yrs RFA DEN --- ---

Swift, Robert C 23 5yrs UFA OKC --- ---

Voskuhl, Jake C 31 9yrs UFA TOR --- ---

Collins, Jarron F-C 30 8yrs UFA UTA --- ---

Frye, Channing F-C 26 4yrs RFA POR --- ---

LaFrentz, Raef F-C 33 11yrs UFA POR --- ---

Marks, Sean F-C 33 10yrs UFA NOH --- ---

McDyess, Antonio F-C 34 13yrs UFA DET --- ---

O'Neal, Jermaine F-C 30 13yrs UFA* MIA --- ---

Ratliff, Theo F-C 36 14yrs UFA PHI --- ---

Wright, Lorenzen F-C 33 13yrs UFA CLE

i really do miss childress' game. he would save alot of posessions for us by swooping in at the last minute and getting an easy putback. with all the shooters on our team, he would be very valuable grabbing their misses. evans tries, but he just doesnt have the length. i wish smoove and marv would stay around the rim more cuz they could get some very easy buckets if they did.

You cant under estimate the value of a good bench (as we have done in the past)

when you dont have a strong bench, it limits your team esp. on defense. you cant play agressive man to man defense when theres no one who can come in behind you if you get in foul trouble. Players like Howard and Pietrus become significantly reduced on the defensive end now.

Offensively, they seem ok, but you are now hoping that their 5 starters have it going night in and night out, which is very unlikely. you are now expecting a 20 pt night from each of their starters. NOT gonna happen. Having depth allows an off night from 2 or 3 starters.

And then theres the risk of injury. Pietrus missed significant time last year, VC and Lewis are both over 30. You are gambling that they hold up for the entire 82 game reg. season AND playoffs.

If everything goes their way, they will have a dominating offensive team. If anything goes wrong, they are royaly screwed

As of right now the Magic still have a hole on their starting roster. Depending on where they play Carter, with the loss of Lee AND Hedo, they wont have a 2/3. This means they will prolly upgrade Pietrus to a starting spot, but that now removes yet another player off their evaporating bench.

PG-Nelson

SG/SF- Pietrus

SG/SF-Carter

PF- Lewis

C-Howard

Bench:

Reddick

Anderson

A. Johnson

Foyle (FA)

Lue (FA)

Je. Richardson (FA)

They still have 3 FA's to sign and one roster spot to fill and they dont have as much cap room. While their starting line-up looks very formidable, they will have absolutely no bench. Assuming Marv comes back and we add another solid big, I would strongly argue that we have a much deeper and better all-around team. If any of their starters get in foul trouble, they are screwed.

Both of them are very talented players, its a shame neither has come to us yet, we could use both of them on our team right now.

Akyol, 6-6 SG-SF, he can dribble, penetrates very often, draws fouls, shoots very well and is a pesky defender. would be a great back up SF for us.

Andersen, 6-11.5, PF-C, has a lean frame so wouldnt be much of a banger, but shoots well as we all know, can PASS, and contributes on the glass. would be a welcomed scorer to our offensively limited froncourt.

Too bad Akyol probably never will come, and we are still holding our breath on Andersen. makes me wonder why I even bothered posting this. If we ever get either though, they would add some great dimensions to our roster.

I have to say I told you so to alot of the replies. The day we got him I spoke about all of this and was getting flamed. The guy is willing to fit into a role, he was asked to play the way he did. And I also remember saying not to judge him by the way he plays on the court. He looks like an AI/Carmelo type of guy on the court, but he really has a Kobe, Duncan kind of personality off of it.

Marvin is so much better right thats why teams are were going after Charlie first hmmm I know he was URFA but charlie has the size , scoring and yes he is a better rebounder look at his numbers and the double doubles. 6 For Marvin and 14 for Charlie more then double yes playing PF but still ill take Charlie over Marvin.

Him being a URFA makes a huge difference. why would Detroit waste their time with Marvin when history shows that we would match their offer, esp in this economy when the only way to get Marv is out-bid us.

Unless somebody has a ton of money to throw his way, and a huge hole at SF, i dont think teams are gonna be as agressive with Marv as they will any Unrestricted FA SF out there.

To answer the point of the thread, i think Marv will get something in that area

If you walk into the new season with a 35 year old 6'9" PF as your only notable aquistion in your already undersized frontcourt you've failed as a GM. Our need as it pertains to the frontcourt is adding size. Regardless of Bibby, Flip or Marvin if we spend our limited resources aquiring a forward at the expense of Zaza or any other Center we will be looking at a long season. Mcdyess should be icing after we've addressed the Center position, if we miss out on him so what? There's plenty of cheaper and younger options out there at that position we can plug in the lineup but as always quality bigs are at a premium

True, what im saying tho is that if you have a good plan, it doesnt matter when you sign player A or player B, so long as they get signed. If you can get McDyess while waiting on Gortat or Zaza to shop themsleves around the league because they are in higher demand and are thus looking for the best deal, then do it. I never said bring in McDyess and thats gonna solve our frontcourt for this offseason. I want Zaza back, but if he is taking a long time then Sund would still have to be proactive in other areas. You cant put everything on hold for 1 guy. Dice is CHEAP so the money will still be there if we get him.

Brandon Bass can do what Mcdyess does but is 10 years younger and would be cheaper

i had to research on him, but yeah i would have to agree on the value.

i also came across Nesteravic and if Zaza and Gortat are asking for too much, I wouldnt be unhappy with him at all. A legit 7 footer, shoots a good % and gets boards. over his career he has been a decent rebounder, but that wasnt the case this year.

----------Mpg--FG-----3PT-----FT---OR--DR-TOT--A--S---B---TO---FL--PTS

Rasho

Career 22.8 0.501 0.077 0.588 1.9 3.4 5.3 1.1 0.4 1.1 0.95 2.80 7.0

Zaza

Career 21.2 0.457 0.000 0.737 2.2 3.4 5.6 1.0 0.7 0.3 1.44 2.70 7.7

Gortat

Career/

Season 12.1 0.559 1.000 0.583 1.5 2.9 4.4 0.2 0.3 0.7 0.39 1.70 3.7

he probably has enough left to help us. His age is actually a good thing for us though because we can get him for cheap and still have money for other areas.

We all understand that but we need a center first then we can worry about our PF position. We need size first then we can worry about aquiring any more 6'9" forwards.

What does the order matter as long as we fill our needs. we needed a center in the draft but they chose to add to our pg situation instead. In all realism tho, our biggest need is to sign a starting SF (whether its Marv or somebody else). i dont believe Joe is moving to the 3 at all, because that really changes our "chemistry" as a team. a term that has been floating out of everybody in our organizations mouth this off-season.

We have a long time before camp to fill our needs, I doubt it happens right away. but if u have the oppurtunity to fill a need you take it, whether its a PF, C, SF. we cant afford to lose out on talent because we are waiting for 1 or 2 players.

not true... we still need a back up PF as well as back up C. We only have Smith, Horford, and Morris. Some writer stated that you need 5 quality bigs to seriously compete for a title and right now we barely have 2 since Smith likes to play outside the paint so much. Morris really doesnt even count cuz he barely does anything at all. Do you want to rely on Solo and Hunter to our bu PF?

We could use a vet like Mcdyess as well as Zaza or Gortat, even somebody like Joe Smith would help.

Regardless of who we acquire, we need to add 2 more Bigs to our roster b4 the season starts, point blank.

i feel you but, by taking the loss of Flip, Acie and Speedy's contract and replacing them with Teague and Crawford, we actually save a little. (like 2mil)

Then with Bibby, he would be taking a pay CUT, so we save some more there.(3mil+)

That savings could be used to sign McDyess for maybe around 3-4 mil

The key is Marvin and Zaza, if they ask for too much, we have to look elsewhere and possibly go with Solo or west instead. Zaza actually shouldnt demand much more than he was getting because when he signed his contract, he was gettin paid as a likely starter, he could get a 2mil raise max. Marv still could get his nice contract

the tip of the iceberg would be Childress. i doubt he comes anyway tho,

so we exchange:

Bibbys old contract

Flip

Speedy

Acie

one of the Ir players contracts

Marvins old deal

Zaza's old deal

for

Bibby paycut

Crawford

Teague rookie deal

Williams pay raise

Zaza slight pay raise (or MLE)

McDyess

Chills or FA Swingman

im not sure if this works but we were under the cap b4 and we are only spending truly on a marvin raise and chills contract... does it look good to anybody?

id prefer a mixture of both, id take:

Marvin

Bibby

Zaza

plus

Mcdyess

a back up swingman (6-6 to 6-8) ideally Childress but i doubt he returns.

giving us:

Bibby/Teague

Joe/Crawford/Evans

Williams/Childress

Smith/McDyess

Horford/ZaZa/Morris

this team would compete for a title, a great mix of scorers and tough role players. i wonder could we afford this lineup tho