RedDawg#8

Dixon vs West for Backup gaurd

Hunter vs Sims and Silar for backup Big

my take

Hunter and Dixon if we take 2 players

West if we only take one player (he can gaurd 3 positions)

(Wonders what Carmelo had to do with anything)

Jeez Diesel,

Yes, there are better SF's in the NBA than Marvin.

There are also better PG's than Bibby, better SG's than Joe, better PF's than Josh, and better Centers than Horford.

You continue to act like Marv is the only player who can improve on our team. BUT HE'S NOT.

Our team is good because of the sum of it's parts. Individually, we fall short in several matchup's against the top team's.

We would love to see him become an All-star, we also would love Bibby, Smoove, and Al to be all-star's too.

We underachieve as a TEAM, not because of Marvin Gaye Williams, the #2 pick of the 2005 NBA Draft. (What the hell has Andrew Bogut done in the league btw?)

Our ENTIRE STARTING 5 are 1st round draft picks and NONE of them are superstar's, not even JJ, so just let it go!!!!

Stop with your microscopic view of Marvin's game and see the bigger picture. for the sake of our sanity *exxageration*

I think once Joe Smith actually plays, we should be able to determine how we really feel about not signing DA.

As our roster stood, had we signed DA he would have probably been the backup PF instead of Smith.

Comparitively, Smith is a seasoned NBA player with tons of regular and post season exprience. Woody loves his "pick and pop' capabilites. at his age though he prolly will suffer through some wear and tear this season and miss time here and there. 6'10 225 F-C

DA is an NBA rookie, but has years of pro basketball experience overseas. His jumper looks pure and that would make him a good pick a roll candidate as well. He is in those "prime" years of a player and looks to move around very good on the court. His health shouldnt be a concern for Houston. he is 6'11 and looks atleast 235-240 lbs PF-C

I think having DA here for multiple years instead of guys like Smith and Collins for just 1 season would have been a more ideal situation, but as mentioned, DA wanted a larger role. If he could really ball though, he surely would have earned more time.

For the short term, I think we got a decent deal. But 3 years from now when DA is still playing, Smith is retired and we are still signing journeymen bigs, we may feel worse about this.

the Wiz have much more to prove and improve than we do. Yes we have to improve winning road games, but they have to improve winning games period.

Diesel, you remind so much of Skip Bayless, or Terrance Moore in that when it comes to Marvin, it seems you enjoy stirring up controversy more than actually making a factual case without being hypocritical. Over the entire off-season every angle you have used to dis-credit Marvin and those who support him have been thwarted with facts. Nobody on here is saying he is a world-beater, but that seems to be what you think he should be and what you think he has to be. If you can seriously just let go of his draft night expectations, and then focus in on our team we have and how all the parts fit together as a whole, it may make excepting Marvin and his role a little easier.

Nobody is saying Marv cant, wont, or shouldnt do better, but to single him out over and over as if he is the only player in a Hawks uniform that isnt playing to his potential is getting tired and quite funny imo. Each of our players are deficient in some way. Bibby literally cant defend or drive the ball, he sits on the outside way more than Marv does. Joe gets to the free throw line less frequently than Marv, Smoove's stats dropped across the board last season despite getting his raise (which happens to be higher than Marv's) and he is overall just less effecient than Marv, has a lower bball IQ, and is just immmature. Horford hasnt improved his post game or added any weight or muscle since he got here and he was a #3 pick who has been a starter from the jump, at least Marv earned his way into the starting lineup.

All this in mind and what's your biggest argument against Marv??? He isnt aggresive enough. THATS IT! he has a very complete package but you just have to harp on that one aspect.

This is the thing, Smoove may NEVER become a good jumpshooter or control his emotions on the court, and when he gets older and loses his athleticism, he wont be able to last in the NBA. Horford may NEVER become a dominate C for us because he is out of position, Bibby WONT get his young legs back and be able to drive like his early years,.

BUT!

Marv will continue to have an all-around game and those skills will only get better and more refined and when he is actually needed to be the aggressor, he still has the potential to do so. His deficiency is not skill-related, or physically dependent, its only mental and once the light-bulb goes off, he has all the tools to live up to his billing from draft night. until then, he is still accepted and respected by most Hawks fans. I appreciate what he brings to this team, nobody on this team can duplicate everything he does. He is a great blend of athleticism, actual skill and smarts.

C'mon Diesel, Jackie Moon said it best:

"E-L-E....Everybody Love Everrybody"

Diesel love Marvin, i know its in you man

based on the box score, the Hawks appeared to have played a pretty decent game, outdoing the Pistons in everything but shooting percentages. The shots just didnt fall for them. Horford went 1-7 and didnt get to the line any. Im not sure who was defending him but those are bad numbers for our starting center. As a team we only shot .385 from the feild, and went 1-12 from 3p land. if we woulda hit just 4-12 or .250 then we're talking about a tie game. Overall, doesnt seem like much to worry about.

Also the Pistons were playing 2 starters and Ben Gordon late when we were sitting all of our starters so down the strecth of the game, the outcome got kinda skewed.

Hunter 14 pts and 7 boards is really making a push for a spot

Miles and Dixon got playing time and did ok., i think the 3rd string guard spot is winding down to them and West, and I honestly would be happy with either of the 3. Robinson hasnt seemed very productive in 2 outings and Wilks is just short (yeah im hating on his height). West did go 0-for tonight with no points or rebounds. he probably has the least skill but his heart and athleticism is carrying him right now.

1. Why are we bringing up Flip? He isnt here anymore. He plays for Charlotte. Crawford IS NOT Flip. Crawford IS Crawford.

2. If what Marvin, or any other player does leads to our team being succesful, then why complain. When we stop improving as a team is when we should worry about individuals who might be holding us back.

3. Putting Crawford in the starting line-up with Joe DOES NOT gauruntee that we will be a better team. There is a thing called CHEMISTRY that we have in our starting 5 that almost no other team in the NBA has coming into this year. (Boston is the only other team i can think of)

4. Stop acting as if Marv's injury led to more success without mentioning how we played the majority of those games at HOME when he was out. We had one of the leagues best home records last year but a very mediocre road record.

5. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING A GOOD PLAYER COME OFF THE BENCH! even if he may be a better individual player than somebody in the starting lineup. i.e. Manu Ginobli, Jason Terry, Ben Gordon (when with bulls), Pietrus (behind Lee last year), Odom (Better than Bynum, but Bynum gives them a better ovr line-up when Gasol plays PF), Illgauskus (better than Varajeo, but 2 C's is unneccesary), Rasheed (behind Perkins), etc, ETC.

You dont just throw your 5 best individual players on the court because they are the most talented. doing this can lead to one or more players playing out of position and effectively working against your team (i.e. last years Piston's: A.I, Stuckey, Hamilton, Prince, Wallace line-up). Its better to just have more firepower off the bench then force somebody into the starting line-up.

At the end of the day, Bibby is our best PG, Joe SG,Marv our best SF, Josh our best PF, and Horford our best C. Crawford is OUR 2nd best SG/PG. dont force him into the starting unit because he is a B+ SG and Marv is a B- SF.

13, 26, 30, 37, 47,

i say we add between 8-10 wins this year easily.

that gives us 55 to 57.

i know many ppl are conservative when giving predictions, but remember, this teams record wasnt a reflection of their talent or potential. We didnt max out last year, we actually under-achieved. We lost MANY winnable games last season. just think of how many road games we handed away last season. i can see us having a winning road record this year, coupled with a slighlty improved home record. We lost a home game to LAC for crying out loud, i think those games we "should" win, we will win this year.

That looks too Golden State Warriors-ish. Im almost sure the 3rd Jersey has to be Red or Silver, with white and blue trim. I doubt/ hope/ pray that they dont bring back yellow and try to make it work with our current Navy blue.

I definately wouldn't mind having him. I thought I was the only one who caught that he was on the camp roster. I like him alot more than Mike Wilks (due to his height)

I will say this, as our roster currently stands I think we need one more combo gaurd and a true SF. But seeing as though we dont have any SF's invited to camp I will scratch that from my wish list. We are potentially 5 deep at every frontcourt position but only 4 deep at the guard spots

PG: Bibby, Teague, Crawford, Johnson

SG: Johnson, Crawford, Evans, Teague

SF: Williams, Evans, Johnson, Smoove, Joe Smith

PF: Smoove, Smith, Williams, Horford, Pachulia (possibly even Joe in some situations)

C: Horford, Pachulia, Collins, Smith, Morris

If we throw another Combo gaurd in the mix we will have a flexible roster with 5 potential player at every position

My favorites for that spot is between:

Juan Dixon: 6'3 Scorer, veteran, adequate defense

Mario West: 6'5 Athletic, Energy, Defense, Heart

Frank Robinson: 6'4 Quick, Energetic, better scorer than West

[sidenote]

Since we obviously will add at least one more big, I truly would like Hunter since he can shoot now, and send Silar to the D-league.

i disagree. Josh has neither handles or a jumper. Marv is superior to him in both those areas.

Josh is a better shawn kemp comparison. Josh can jump, block shots and dunk, but cant be depended on to knock down an open shot at all. thus he is better served in the post closer to the rim

Marv can dribble effectively, shoot from the perimeter, jump and gaurd/play both the post and perimeter, making him the better option at the 3

In case yal forgot, Joe wasnt on the Olympic team because after he participated on the national team in 2006 he came back and had that season ending injury the next nba season. He decided to pull himself from team USA stating he wanted to make sure he was healthy enough to make it through the next full season.

Alot of players choose not to participate on team USA for this very reason. Kobe was the same way before he changed his mind at the last minute and joined this year.

So drop that Joe wasnt selected to the olympic team nonsense, he was on it and opted out. In fact, all the national team members from his 06 summer raved about him and his play stating he was a great asset who was the most versatile player they had.

Joe DOES have All-World talent

Roy couldnt even get his team past the first round, Joe won game 7 by himself for the most part.

Roy has a killer instinct in lesser moments i.e reg. season

Joe has a killer instinct only in the last possible moments where he can still make a difference.

the 4th quarter of that game in the Bos series. Game 7 this year.

I think Joe tries to play a modest game and not take it over until its absolutely neccesary and almost too late

With Crawford, I say unless he has an amazing camp, he will be our 6th man, but will get starters minutes. We are one of the only teams in the NBA who will be starting the same 5 players for a 3rd season, let alone a second season. Why mess that chemistry up, it is trully one of our best advantages.

What I hope we do see is alot of different sub line-ups that are based on matchups that we use intentionally, and not because of injury or foul situation.

Bibby-Joe-Marv-Smith-Horf: Start every game with this group, and based off what happens go to either:

Craw-Joe-Marv-Smith-Horf: Against taller or faster PG's (Kidd, Chauncey or Rondo)

Bibby-Craw-Joe-Smith-Horf: Against smaller quicker SG's (Allen, West, Wade)

Bibby-Craw-Joe-Marv-Horf: Spread the court and bombs away shooting line-up (to play catch up)

Teague-Craw-Marv-Smith-Horf: Young, Athletic, run and gun group for the fans

A little off topic, but in camp i would like to see these be the 2 main units going against each other, but not the actual line-ups

Bibby vsTeague (master vs. the apprentice)

Crawford vs. Evans (6'5 offense against 6'5 defense)

Joe vs. Marvin (Best scorer against the man who will always guard the best scorer during the reg season)

Smith vs. a veteran (Hot-headed youngster vs. a wiley vet)

Horf vs Zaza (Scrappy vs Scrappier)

Deisel, Its not a bias,

When that many people on this board, and on the GS board agree on it, maybe its just the plain truth. Obviously you dont think Marv is better but you made the poll, people responed, so take it for what its worth and not for what you want it to mean.

We understand the results didnt come out the way you wanted, but that doesnt mean we did something wrong. You asked, you got an answer.

Maybe you should try to just accept Marv, and root for the guy. Im sure if the results came out different you would be telling us to root against him, so im personally requesting you just step back for a moment, put all the negative data on Marvin that you have collected over the years to the side, and just appreciate the positive things he brings to your favorite team, cuz guess what....he is here for 5 more seasons buddy.

Nobody here thinks the guy is a star player, we all know he was drafted way too high. And if YOU didnt criticize his game to the point where damn near everybody on here has to defend him, there might be more people who agreed with you, and said the more of the same things you feel, but your perpetual scrutinizing of the man has made people begin to appreciate him more as we research and find out that he is actually better than we give him credit for.

Your like a teenager who gets into it with a friend and stops talking to them, then you tell all your other friends not to like that person too, but over time people forget about what happened and like that person again, while your pride is too big to just forgive them and move on. So now you find yourself more isolated from everybody all because of a grudge that you probably cant remember how it began.

To Mr. Deisel, I say....let it go. take a deep breath, and free your mind of this hatred. Release yourself of the stress of trying to make us not like Marvin too. Forgive him for his lofty draft status and average career to date. Use your energy to instead think positively about his potential and cheer your favorite team on

What all 3 did is esentially trade away depth and chemistry for a big name.

If Shaq doesnt make it through this season injury free, the Cavs could be in major trouble

Same goes for Bos and KG,

Orlando does not have history on their side, aside from the Lakers this year, most teams that lose is the finals dont return the next year. Add to that that they will have the most chemistry issues to fill and next year could see them take a major fall.

The Cavs added shaq, but inevitably lost more depth in their front court. the only good big on the bench is Illgauskus and he can only play one position as opposed to last season when they had Ben Wallace, Joe Smith and Lo Wright who could chip in at both PF/C. I think they are planning on using James more at PF this year, hence the additions of Parker and Moon who can play more SF for them. Overall, while they have the 2 biggest centers in the East on one roster, their front court has actually gotten smaller.

They recieve my vote for most vunerable

Since Woody has been here, the PG are not required to facilitate, with that in mind, Teague will be brought along the same way.

Look at our history under woody

Lue

Bibby (in our system, not so much b4 he got here)

Acie (a big time shooter coming out of school)

Teague

Salim

All scoring gaurds

versus

Anthony Johnson

Speedy Claxton

more traditional pg's

As long as JJ is here, the offense will be ran through him, much like Lebron in Cle, and Wade in Mia

I think that the simple fact that our road record was horrible and that usually improves with experience bodes well for us.

If we can win closer to half of our road games we are at 50 wins easily

Some things to keep in mind though, aside from Bibby and Horford who maintained, all other Hawks starters had a statistically worse year. We also had the injury issue. I doubt that both those things re-occur this year. I expect that Smith, Horford and Marv improve stat wise, and Bibby regress a little with Crawford cutting into his production. JJ will prolly maintain.

If Smith alone can go back to his 07-08 level, we become very strong.

One thing we have still yet to do is play to our strengths. we to often play to other teams abilties. When we can start taking advantage of the mismatches we have against EVERY team, we will be tough beat period.

Overall, things are looking UP, there are more positive things about this team than negative.

Just getting a little overwhelmed with all the Big discussions, and want to see where everybody stands.

Once again, here we are as Atlanta sports fans, cheering for a team on the verge of taking that next step, but because ownerships are pinching their wallets we start making excuses for them, throwing away any ambitions of a championship and sulk back into "reality" as we try to make sense and understand why we dont deserve to have a championship-caliber team. We cant even agree that we we need to spend money on a backup PF. now we are saying that its a better decision to go into the season with the same depth at PF/C and hope for different results. Guess what though, thats not reality people, thats called insanity.

Boston had declining attendance and a horrible record, but in one summer they changed that beacuse they dedicated themselves to building(or buying) a championship team.

I dont know about yal but I eventually would like to see our team win a championship, not just make a good showing in the playoffs. Ive watched thru all the struggles and im happy that we are past that now, but its only a matter of time before this roster will regress and we will be back at square one. And we will start these discussions all over again. Thats why when you build a team up, you jump at the oppurtunity to make that ONE or two moves that pushes them over the edge, not sit back and feed fans the same ish and say "they should be satisfied for a while with that". Im not saying Joe Smith is that move, but its the same mindest of balking at spending money on a big that will prevent ownership from spending on the piece we need to win a title.

I think the real problem is that veterans realize there's no playing time here...

I can see how it may seem that way but the truth is, 2 years ago when we had 6 "big men" on our roster (Horford, Smith, Zaza, Shelden, LoWright, and Solo) we found a way to get the combo of Wright (11) Shell (11) and Solo (4) 26 minutes collectively. Almost all those minutes can go to just one vet player with a guy like Morris recieving maybe 3 a game.

If we have the bodies and talent to back players up, they will see time

to my knowledge, Gladyr could not participate in anything but an individual work out due to some conflict with the Euro league.

Akyol was decent, I think it was Sekou who said he contibuted on both sides of the court. I dont think he stuck out much compared to the other guys he was against tho.

Akyol apparently wants to come to the NBA this year as he is a free agent in the Euro leagues, but I doubt he's picked up (by us anyways)

Gladyr will go back overseas for at least another season.

Both want to play here eventually tho, which is why they decided to come and participate in mini camp as a show of that desire.

oh man, how ironic to see Marv throwin it down on Smoove. I almost forgot they both were in the same senior class, with Marv goin to UNC and Smoove coming straight out. that was hilarious lol

http://my.nba.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5700040557

this is from John Schumann on Smoove based on thursday, sounds like the same Smith we know and love. Other than his athleticism, he doesnt have much else.

"Josh Smith's jumper still needs a lot of work, and it's hard to see him being a part of the roster in the next few years. He's athletic and can guard multiple positions, but this team needs its twos, threes and fours to be able to shoot the ball from the perimeter.

Smith did have the dunk of the day: A windmill throwdown on Love during the full-court transition drills. But even though Smith is an adidas guy and Love rocks the swoosh, no tapes were confiscated."

Based on what we have seen and heard I wouldnt mind Siler and Koralev, as well as bringing Hunter back. At least both Koralev and Hunter have NBA experience so it wouldnt be a big risk filling out the roster with them. I also wouldnt mind having Randolph be an IR player and Siler step into the 12 -man unit.

Bibby-Teague

Joe-Crawford-West

Williams-Evans-Korolev

Smith-FA Big-Hunter

Horford-Pachulia-Siler-Morris

This would give us a solid 1st and 2nd unit of NBA proven players (Teague exception), and solid (but not ideal) big man depth.