terrell

I think were at the point where we are evaluating everyone and if we dont get out of the 2nd rd well we will make serious changes .

Trading Crawford does nothing because teams wont give us the premium but will instead try and steal him from us by offering scrubs.

If we dont make it out of the 2nd rd we will choose two of our starting five to keep trade the rest and consider resigning Crawford as a key bench contributor depending on his asking price.

Our starting 5 for having played together so long plays with no sense of urgency ,no passion . We talk about how young they are but look at how often they come out flat when was the last time we saw them play with some serious bounce and spring in there step from the start of the game . They are the oldest young team Ive ever seen . When I watch OKC and look at how emotional and raw that young team is I cant overlook that something is missing from our squad . Unless this team can somehow recapture that you keep two and use the rest to try and get that back .

Shouldve did Smoove for Amare last year

"something is missing from our squad." We need to find a Westbrook.

It has now been 1 & 1/2 seasons since the franchise has made a significant addition to this team. Draft picks #19 and #27, who don't even play, are not significant additions and minimum salaried veterans as not considered significant either.

I can understand standing pat if I'm the Lakers or Spurs and have multiple rings but not with just two second round playoff sweep dissapointments. The Hawks have had the exact same starting roster for 3 full seasons now and the results are not getting any better.

You can count on the Falcons to make 1 major move every off season:

2008 - Signed Michael Turner - top RB in that years FA class and RB was a primary need with Dunn being through.

2009 - Trade for Tony Gonzalez, greatest TE of all time. That was the Falcons primary weakness on offense at that time

2011 - Signed Dunta Robinson - top FA CB in that years FA class. CB was the Falcons primary weakness on defense.

I know its apples and oranges but they are still fruits / sports.

Allow me to edit myself.

After the first 2nd round playoff sweep Sund did add Jamal Crawford who won 6th man of the year. That was an excellent and the type of addition the team needed.

Unfortunately that did not equate to 2nd round playoff success. With a healthy roster and the Crawford addition the Hawks are then swept from the 2nd round again........and there have been no moves.

I'm sure Sund is talking but his hands are tied in that he can't flip expiring contracts for longer contracts without going into the tax. That shrinks his pool of possible trades.

How'd that work out for the Falcons? Good reg seasons, out in the Playoffs. At least the Hawks made it to the 2nd rd. Just sayin. And you could compare Dunte Robinson's contract to Marvin, Bibby, and Zazas, in terms of performance vs. pay. And btw, we all know Sunds hands are tied. Just like BK's was. Why cant we just have 1 owner? OMG!

I know Chris Kaman's name is tossed around each year as being on the block. WIth his health issues and DeAndre Jordan's flashes of talent, that could be more true now than ever. If the Hawks are looking for a way to win now, yet still stay somewhat financially flexible, I have a trade proposal that could do that, as well as could possibly pay off big come playoff time.

Atlanta receives: Steve Nash, Chris Kaman, and Grant Hill

LA receives: Marvin Williams, ZaZa Pachulia, Mo Evans, and , future ATL 1st round pick (protected)

Phoenix receives: Jamal Crawford, Eric Bledsoe, Brian Cook

Why Atlanta does it: Steve Nash is as good as it gets on the offensive side as a floor general. He's a penetrate and pass-first PG. His defficiencies are he's 37 and he's weak on defense, but he can't be worse than Bibby is now. The key in this deal is Atlanta retains Teague to learn from two great PG's of this generation (Bibby and Nash). Atlanta also adds a solid big man that has seen his fair share of health concerns; however Marvin is slowly becoming that same way so this is a way to rid ourselves of his contract. Kaman does become a FA after the 2011-2012 season at the same time Bibby and Nash do. Grant Hill gives us a vet SF who's having his best season in years. He's a crafty guy that would love to win it all this year. He'd have a much better chance here than PHX.

Nash/Bibby/Teague

Johnson/Wilkins/Crawford

Smith/Hill

Horford/Powell

Kaman/Collins/Thomas

Small lineup-Nash, Johnson, Hill, Smith, Horford

Why LA does it: Kaman can be a dominate big man, but he's fragile. They've needed a presence at SF. Some feel Aminu may be the answer. Others don't. Marvin gives them a guy who can either come off the bench for them or step right into a starting role. ZaZa gives them a tough big man reserve that stays healthy. Evans is an expring but gives them depth. If they have any hopes of making the playoffs this year or next, these are the types of risk/reward deals you have to make.

Davis/Foye/Warren

Gordon/Butler/Evans

Williams/Aminu/Gomes

Griffin/Smith/Diogu/Cook

Jordan/Pachulia

Why Phoenix does it: Nash is nearing the end of his career. He's still highly productive; however Phoenix (although showing signs of life in the past week) has little chance of making the playoffs or making much noise if they do. They have talent, but may find it best to start building for the future. They're currently close to luxury tax territory and might like to move below the cap and focus on a few years from now when Vince Carter's mammoth deal comes off the books. They've already locked down their role players for the next few years so they can build using young talent and these guys. They'll need to lock up Dragic long-term as well since he'll be their PG of the future. Bledsoe is a talented young PG that gives them insurance if they don't retain Dragic. Cook and Crawford represent 2 large contracts coming off the books.

Dragic/Bledsoe

Carter/Crawford/Dowdell

Peitrus/Dudley/Childress

Frye/Warrick/Lawai/Cook

Gortat/Lopez/Siler

These deals improve us this year without breaking up the key part of the "core". It gives us financial flexibility going forward. We'll be in luxury tax territory next year (almost certainly after new CBA), but have significant flexibility after 2012.

Can you imagine Nash leading breaks with Smith?

Thats highway robbery for us. IF KAMAN CAN STAY HEALTHY. And that's a big IF. So basically we give up Jamal for Kaman and Nash. Wow! Marvin, Mo, and Zaza, shouldnt be in the league anyway.

LOL...ok Mr. Crawsome. First did you read the title of the thread? It said HAWKS on front page of nba.com, not Josh Smith. I am just glad that the HAWKS are being mentioned in a positive light instead of the usual negatives that get thrown around. The Josh Smith comment was just a side note because I PERSONALLY agree.

Jeez you are right, there is a lot of selective reading/viewing going on. :magnifier:

Who failed to comprehend this time? :smile:

lol!

Oh no, not the infamous basketball IQ word. lol

Sorry fellas. Didnt mean to turn this into a highschool/college thing at all. Just puzzled as to why all the hate for Smith. Only brought up the high school thing because that's the only thing I could think of at the time. lol! And I was being sarcastic when I said it.

Still no response on my earlier post, typical. As to the high schoolers argument, sure I could find some that hate them for whatever particular reason usually dealing with such gems as "it sets a bad example for the kids" "or they need to understand the the importance of education" but the decision to increase the age limit for the NBA draft was strictly a business one.

The NCAA benefits from having the top highschool prospects increase their ratings for the year and the NBA benefits by having a minor league develop these players for free all while giving these same prospects wider exposure and therefore making them easier to market in the pros (read: more money). Where's the hate in that?

Schools receive more hype for carrying these "one and doners" as well because fans tune in to watch a future NBA prospect in his "beginnings." Just in the last draft alone 9 of the 14 lottery picks were underclassmen with John Wall headlining them. Where was the preference for guys that stayed in school?

This of course is an entirely bull s*** tangent because it has nothing to do with how a player drafted before the limit's inception is perceived. You are using a "joke" as really a poorly constructed disguise for you not really having an argument outside of your opinion about your favorite player. I posted facts as the first person to respond to your original post where I compared Al and Smoove "basketball wise". You proceeded to respond to everyone after me who quoted you with more of your baseless opinions but never bothered to address my response. I'm amused but I like dancers on the 'Squawk. To stay with your highschooler lolz joke observation, last I checked the Reddicks, Sheldens, Acie Laws, and Hansbroughs are not held to a higher degree than the Kobe's, Amar'es, Dwights, Lebrons, KGs or even Smooves. It seems that if you just so happen to be a better player then you are recognized as a better player. Go figure.

My favorite player? lol! When did I say that? Preciate the comments. Just love talking Hawks man. No hard feelings.

Who are these people that hate on high schoolers considering that 3 out of the top 5 MVP candidates are high schoolers and plenty of the lottery picks are "one and doners" who only go to college because they have to. If anything staying in school is actually a detriment to a player's NBA stock as many believe you lack upside. These are actual facts by the way, you are the one having trouble believing them. I already pointed out where Al excels in a previous post in this very thread, you are welcome to dispute it if you like. No I did not go to Florida.

Look it up. I'm sure you'll find some. And they're facts according to you, and you only. Nothing but an opinion to me.

And it was a joke for the last time. Just dont understand all the hate for Smith. But whatever. And btw, why cant high schoolers come out early again??

I don't disagree that Josh is better but 'boring' means nothing to how good a player is. You might argue that Tim Duncan is kinda boring but is considered one of the best PFs of all time

Agreed.

You feel that factually pointing out where one player excels over another is based on some perceived bias over who went to college? What makes that logic even sadder is that while one player was worried about his midterm assignment the other was working professionally and getting paid millions over the same timespan. Clearly that has to be it.

You know what maybe, or idk means? It was a joke to be honest. Sorta like people saying theyd trade Josh Smith for Acie Law, or comparing Josh to David friggin Lee, etc.... But seriously ,people hate on highschoolers coming out all the time, and praise the guys for staying in school. Thats a fact, whether you want to believe it or not. And what does Al excel in over Josh other than his mid range jumper? Did you go to Florida?

Versatile can be used in different ways so there is no problem with that. I just don't think it is meaningful in a conversation to say that Josh can play C when everyone recognizes he couldn't start there or even play 20 mpg there. It would be like saying Horford can play SF - sure he can defend some SFs and has a good enough jumper to do that but he couldn't be your first or second option at the position.

The only positions that Josh can be your starter or top backup are SF and PF. I think that is the meaningful way to use "versatile" in this context.

Not true. He could play center for Dantoni. lol!

Biedrins is better rebounder then Josh. Biedrins blocks shots at almost the same rate as Josh. When he is healthy Biedrins is a solid defensive player. Curry is better defensive player then Bibby and now JJ can defend his own position, which he does very well. I'm not sure this trade would make us take much of hit at all on defense. In fact our defense may work better as a unit where each man can truely be responsible for defending their own man.

He's a better rebounder than Josh because nobody else on his team rebounds. I'd be good too, if nobody else went up for the ball. And like I dont know Curry is a better defensive player than Bibby? Wtf? Who doesnt know that? Bibby's d is horrendous.

I'm sure you meant offense, his value has always been on the defensive end.

Take your choice.

Biedrens is not remotely comparable to Josh on defense or offense. He is a much more limited player. So the person who said Curry would be the prize is right and the fact that Biedrens is a big man who isn't worthless is about all you are going to get. His dream scenario is to be a poor man's Tyson Chandler.

That would be me. lol! Btw, isnt Chandler a FA next year?

I'd trade Josh for Acie Law :)

Thats why you're playing computer GM.

I'd rank them in this order:

1. Horford - best all around player of these 3 hands down. Is the only player of these 3 who can defend both the PF and C position well.

2. Smoove - mental mistakes are the only thing holding him back on both offense and defense. Lacks discipline and that is a really big deal to some. This keeps his raw talent from being maximized.

3. Lee - extremely efficient on offense but is easily the worst defender of these 3.

Pretty much agree with this. Josh still has the most upside though imo. Just needs a coach to get in that azz..

IMO, Josh can't play C anymore than Lebron can - i.e., only for very limited minutes. He can play PF or SF. Not surprisingly, Josh hasn't played much center in the past. According to 82 games, he has played:

3% of the minutes at center this season

0% of the minutes at center last season

Anyone who can play significant minutes at center (and Al was an All-Star center last year) has very valuable flexibility - much more so than guys who can swing between the other positions.

I thought being versatile meant that you COULD play it if need be, not how many min you play it? My bad. And I'm not suprised at any comments reagarding Josh or Al. Josh is the most hated Hawk on earth, and Al is the most beloved. Why, Idk? 4 years of college compared to none. Maybe that's it? I know how people like to hate on highschoolers jumping to the NBA. How bout we ask LD who's the most versatile player on the team, and who has the best court vision on the team. Oh yeah, he's already answered that ?

Josh can play sf, pf, and c. No way Al is more versatile than Josh. I like Al myself, but I have to disagree with that. And have yall seen what happens in the paint when Josh goes out of the game. Al just opens up his arms and says come on down. And btw, the Hawks dont have a leader. Thats the problem. And another thing, itseems like it takes Al 10 min to decide what to do when he's posting up. Not an Al hater or a Josh lover, but I cant see why Al gets all the glory and Josh gets all the blame. Like I said Josh can be frustrating at times, so people usually overlook what he brings to the table. Thats understandable I guess.

Just to add what you are saying...Al is a leader, he is a much better ball handler and Al can also play center along with PF (more versatile).

Josh can play sf, pf, and c. No way Al is more versatile than Josh. I like Al myself, but I have to disagree with that. And have yall seen what happens in the paint when Josh goes out of the game. Al just opens up his arms and says come on down. And btw, the Hawks dont have a leader. Thats the problem.

Thanks for posting that piece.

Not sure what to make of Sund's comments. Some obvious issues to be reinforced:

1) It's not just a matter of paying the luxury tax, it's loosing out on revenue sharing from the teams paying the tax. The ASG is banking on those dollars.

2) They seem to be in talks about getting another piece. My take is that they did have talks about Carmelo but backed out when they couldn't make a trade fit into the tax threshold.

3) There is a good bit of hyperbole from Sund. To claim that Bibby is in his prime is certainly a stretch.

Saying Bibby is in his prime is a lie.

Josh Smith pisses me off, just as much as he pisses of anybody. But man is he underrated around here. Beware! Be careful what you ask for. Ever seen Biedrens play defense? Curry is the prize in the trade, but our defense would take a major hit. Trust me. Better hope Curry and Joe can keep em out of the lane. The Hawks are already soft in the paint. At least Josh makes you think twice before coming in there. His blocks are down, but that's mainly because he's been at sf a lot.

There is no way Josh gets traded unless in involves us getting CP3. I think there is a good chance Jamal gets traded but i think more likely is we do a minor deal that involves zaza or mo or jc2 or a pick.

Or possibly Curry/Beans. But Josh brings a lot to the table(especially when he's in the paint). Maybe even moreso than Al. Pretty soon, we're going to have to decide between the 2. Glad I'm not the GM. And I know, I know, Smith is a "headcase" or whatever, but when you compare the 2, basketball wise, Smith does much more than Al does. Just sayin. Al has the better mid range game, but Smith's the better passer, long range shooter, defender, and he also has the better back to the basket game right now imo. Decisions, decisions.

He doesn't play defense...he def has quickness and can drive to the hoop but he isn't known for being a great passer. Lately I have been reading that he is considered pretty selfish. He doesn't have a jump shot and especially doesn't have a 3 point shot.

Ok. Quickness, and can drive to the hoop. And I dont want my pg throwin up 3's all game long. Selfish? You must be talking bout Jamal, JJ, or Josh? Cause neither one should be getting more touches than Al. Maybe TJ or someone else could change that. Bibby and Jamal arent. And I thought you said his defense was avg???? That's 10 times better defense than you know who.

Other then his speed, what makes TJ better?

Defense. Quickness. Can break down the defense when they go to zone. Can take it to the hoop and get to the free throw line. Can drive and dish. Doesnt hang out at the 3 pt line, etc...................................................................................................

TJ Ford is a change pace pg but he is not a true answer to our pg woes. He is small, he is not a great defender and he doesn't have a good outside shot. If it wasn't for his contract I think he would be a journy man in this league. He would be a good backup guard and at this point in his career we have that in Bibby. We just need a true starting pg so that Bibby can take that backup role.

Well Deron and CP3 arent coming to Atlanta anytime soon. Gotta take what you can get for the time being. TJ is better than Bibby. And Jamal is not a pg. And since when did a pg have to have a good outside shot? It just has to be good enough to keep the defense honest. And btw, I'd take avg defense over no defense. One more thing, to get an elite pg, it's going to cost us a piece of the "core". ASG aint having that. lol!

The problem with most trades, in my opinion, is that the net between what you gain versus what you lose is not sufficient to actually translate to a clearly better shot at advancing in the playoffs. Though I certainly think we could use all three of those parts, losing JC would be a pretty substantial blow to the rotation, so this is a case in point.

Ford would make up for most of Jamal's scoring. Plus we add better defense to stop teams from killin us in the 4th qtr. Something that Jamal cant do. He might score 20, but he usually gives up 20 on d. Jamal and Bibby on the floor in the 4th qtr is an accident waiting to happen. You dont win in the 4th with offense, you win with defense.

Pacers get : Jamal, Zaza, and a 1st

Hawks get : TJ Ford, Dahntay Jones, and Jeff Foster

They get another scorer to help out Granger for a playoff push, a backup to Hibbert, and a 1st rd pick.

We get a scoring pg, a defensive specialist, and a productive big.

Nothing flashy, but I think it would help the team. And we all know the ASG or Sund arent known for doing anything flashy.

Ford/JJ/Marvin/Josh/Al

Bibby/Mo/Dahntay/Foster/Collins

Teague/Wilkins/Powell/JC2

Release Etan

Thoughts?

LMAO @ Marvin trying to fight. He almost fell down (again) after he threw that punch. Not satrting for a while mustve pissed him off. lol! And btw, Stern usually comes down pretty hard on no name players.