phoostal

The only difference BHD, is that Babcock isn't the one picking the players in the draft or making the trades for the players he thinks this team needs to win. Let's see what Knight could do making these kind of moves. I'm not saying it would work. Maybe Babcock and I have a similar philosophy. But, the guy wasn't very good at getting the right talent. Get someone that can make the right moves. P

Here is what my plan stated since you are having a hard time finding it my posts. All you had to do was read the above posts, I copied and pasted it for you: Let's say we didn't trade Wallace. By the way you act like I didn't support the move of trading Reef before. I did. I think this team needed a change. I just think should have kept Wallace. Anyways I digress, Wallace was here. We came close or we made the playoffs we sign Wallace and Kobe. Sort of like the Lakers with Malone and Payton. Kobe's chances of coming to Atlanta were much better with Wallace here than without him. He would have taken Atlanta more serious than he does now. We can also still trade JT and our pick to move up in the draft or get another player. So many of the options you gave me could still be attainable. Just not a top 3 pick. Then the following year guess what you still have that 11 mil coming off the books. Not to mention with todays draft even if you pick 18-22 you could still get a decent player. For the simple fact that the draft is pot luck wherever you pick. Your odds are better when you draft higher but you never know. This is from anothter post earlier on this topic: Some beleive you build through the draft, I won't argue with that. But, I also think you do it through free agency and some good trades. I think you get good relatively young free agents or through trades it can also work out. Then you sprinkle in draft picks to help maintain the status you acheive. I think that approach is more beneficial than just tanking the season and trying to get a top 3 pick. Unless you know you have the next Jordan or LeBron. I wouldn't do it. You may laugh at the 8th playoff seed. But, I look at it as a stepping stone. Let's say they kept Wallace. With what has happen the last couple weeks the Hawks may have been in good shape to make the playoffs. That being said it would bring more exposure for the team. A lot more positive press than negative as well. But, what this really shows people, is maybe Atlanta isn't that bad. They made the playoffs they have plenty of cap room. They are relatively young. They are in a good market. They have new ownership. The sky is the limit. The only negative I can think of is not having a top 3 pick. Even though I don't think that is that bad. There are no guarantees in the draft and I think the positives of this scenario out weigh having a top 3 pick. This franchise has nothing but a chance to get better under this picture. Higher playoff seeds in the following years. Free agents would be more apt to sign here. I like free agents more than draft picks for the simple fact they have proven themselves in this league. Yes, I maybe missing out on the next Jordan or LeBron by not being in the top 3. I'm willing to take that risk on a proven commodity than an unproven commodity. That my friend is smart business. Choosing the proven commodity over the unproven. In the long run I will be turning over a steady profit or winning in this case. Please do me a favor and read next time. At least this time I didn't have to write that much since I copied and paste. Also, why should I look at a specific reply. I think if you are going to call someone out on something you should look at the entire arguement before making a statement. The message board to me is like going to a bar and BSing with your buds. You are the one that is taking it too seriously. P

Maybe you should read all my posts. Mister Perfect. I said I can see your point in my last reply. I was just bringing up another option to rebuilding. Please take the time to read all posts and then come back with something educated to say. I never said my way was right. I always state that this is just my opinion. I have stated that I maybe in the minority. I always gave you reasons my plan may work or may not work. So before you make ignorant statements and embarrass yourself read all my posts. I have stated I didn't like Babcock's way, but you don't read posts. I have stated that I just don't understand how you can root for a team to lose and still be a true fan. Some have come on to explain their position. I have a better understanding. You can see that from my last email. Maybe you can't see through the forest yourself. Because I have stated before the plan that is taking place is no guarantee that it is not going to be as smooth as some thing. Sorry you think I'm rude. I may have come acrossed rude because I said true fans don't root against their teams. I apologized if I hurt your feelings. But, honestly I thought this was a forum to express your feelings and share different ideas on how to make this team a winner. Because bottom line we are all fans of the Hawks, Right? I can admit I shouldn't have called you a joke or an embarrassment. I have a way to make the Hawks better and so do you. So don't act like you are god either by saying your way is better. Only time will tell if this works out. I hope it does. Like I have stated since the beginning. I do think you should do a little more reading than what you have done. I wouldn't have to be typing this response if you read all my posts on this particular subject. Also, please don't give me this BS of looking in the mirror to see who the real fan is. I think my whole campaign during this time period is how I want to see the Hawks be a success now and into future years. You would have seen that if you read my past posts. I wasn't just thinking about this year. This is what pisses me off, read everything I write. Instead I have to come back on to retype things I have already stated. Do you really think I like to type these long dissertations? No, I don't. I just feel like I have to because people like you don't read all of the posts. You just pick out one think, "oh he just called me a joke or said I was an embarrassment" well there was something behind what I said that led to those statements. When you read you say why I said the things I said. Also, then you will see from people's responses their views and how I came to a better understanding some of the fans positions on this matter. As stated in my response right before your post. And if I'm still offensive to you and so rude. You don't have to ever respond to my posts. F' it! It's just a board to talk about our favorite team. Hell, we can go round and round on anything. That's the beauty of everything. Don't be upset, let's discuss it and that is what I was trying to do. Generate a discussion. On other possible plans to make this team better, than what we are doing right now. But, you may never see my point of view. And I don't want to force you to see it. Either you do or you don't. Just like you don't agree with me on what's good for baseball and what is not good for baseball. Instead of continuing to discuss that you just got upset and said you didn't want to discuss it any further. And all was doing was bring up facts to state my case. If you can prove me wrong with the stuff I bring up, please do. God knows I'm not perfect and I'm not right. I want people to educate me with their knowledge of subjects as well. Help me get a better understanding of why I'm wrong. Maybe the next thing you can get pissed with me for is AJ Feeley. What a waste for the Fins to get him. Not a major upgrade over Fiedler. I've like the Fins longer than the Hawks maybe we can debate that next. But, then again maybe not because I will come across to rude. LOL. In conclusion, if I offend some sorry. I like to discuss philosophies and theories that will be beneficial in the end. I like to look at both sides of the story and then come up with a conclusion that has the best result. That was what I was trying to do here. I came up with a plan that I thought could keep the Hawks winning, instead of rooting for them to lose. I gave reasons for this, I also said how they could sustain this with the right free agents and trades. Then I also concluded that if we feel on our faces than it wouldn't be any worse than we are now. We just wouldn't have a top 3 pick. That's all just trying to give a little perspective on another way of making things happen for this organization. Sorry Dolfan. That I got you so upset. P

Fair enough. I never said you weren't fans. I just said if you were a real fan you wouldn't be rooting for them to lose. I like the approach some have taken by saying hey I hope they win the rest of their games this year, but if they don't I will be happy because we get a top 3 pick. I don't see anything wrong with that philosophy. I just don't understand openly root for them to lose. Don't try to win on purpose. I just don't like that kind of an attitude. Thats just me. I'm not saying everyone should be like me. I maybe totally wrong for the way I think. I just wanted some feed back of why a fan would openly root for the team to lose on purpose. But, I see your point of view that people see losing as helping out in the long run. But, only time will tell. I just wanted to bring up a plan where we didn't have to lose as much. P

Check again my friend. Look up the box scores starting with that Denver game. You will see that the trio of Hawks did play. So thats a 55% clip. P

I'm tired of losing. I never once didn't agree with the moves of changing the roster. Like NY I think we made one to many by letting Wallace go. Even if Wallace didn't resign, I still think we could have gotten more this off season. Hell yeah, I'm impatient. I'm tired of losing. I'm tired of being laughed at because I like the Hawks. I'm tired of having broadcastors bag on us, no matter what city we are in. I'm tired of getting no respect. It's sad. So I presented a plan that I thought may work without us having to lose. And I get crucified for it by some. Sorry if I want this team to win right now. You may say tanking this season will lead us back in the following years. You maybe right. I was just presenting a plan that could do it sooner than later. And it would also keep us up near the top for a long period as well. I just see more chance of failure with tanking the season than I do by winning. No one can convince me that losing is good. I have played enough sports that I know what losing does to a team, franchise, and community. Its not good. No matter what kind of plan is to follow. I feel it leads to more set backs than it does to success. I'm just giving another option of why wouldn't have to root for the team to lose. It just seems contradicting to me to root for the team to lose so that we are better in the long run. P

Well we don't know if they would miss the playoffs or if they would make it your right. Yes, this class is weak right now. You say exclude Kobe. Why? Tell Denver to exclude Kobe. I don't think they will. Let's say we didn't trade Wallace. By the way you act like I didn't support the move of trading Reef before. I did. I think this team needed a change. I just think should have kept Wallace. Anyways I digress, Wallace was here. We came close or we made the playoffs we sign Wallace and Kobe. Sort of like the Lakers with Malone and Payton. Kobe's chances of coming to Atlanta were much better with Wallace here than without him. He would have taken Atlanta more serious than he does now. We can also still trade JT and our pick to move up in the draft or get another player. So many of the options you gave me could still be attainable. Just not a top 3 pick. Then the following year guess what you still have that 11 mil coming off the books. Not to mention with todays draft even if you pick 18-22 you could still get a decent player. For the simple fact that the draft is pot luck wherever you pick. Your odds are better when you draft higher but you never know. We will see how it unfolds, but to slam my way of rebuilding is somewhat foolish. There are no guarantees either way. I'm just presenting option of where we wouldn't have to tank the rest of this season. Winning changes a lot of things, losing doesn't. P

Well I never recall rooting for a team to lose being a fan of that particular team. There are no set of rules, but that's pretty funny that you root for a team to lose, but your a fan? Do you want you as a fan? I guess I grew up in a different world from most. I was taught to cheer for the team you like. I guess you weren't. But to each his own. No one said you have to follow my rules. I'm just stating in my opinion you aren't a real fan of the team if you root for them to lose. You maybe right. Most people I know root for their team to win and they claim to be a fan. I guess those people are in the minority according to you. P

I think that route could be just as beneficial as the route we are taking now (making the 8th seed). The reason being is that we don't have the same people in charge. I feel it maybe easier to rebuild by making the 8th seed. Some beleive you build through the draft, I won't argue with that. But, I also think you do it through free agency and some good trades. I think you get good relatively young free agents or through trades it can also work out. Then you sprinkle in draft picks to help maintain the status you acheive. I think that approach is more beneficial than just tanking the season and trying to get a top 3 pick. Unless you know you have the next Jordan or LeBron. I wouldn't do it. You may laugh at the 8th playoff seed. But, I look at it as a stepping stone. Let's say they kept Wallace. With what has happen the last couple weeks the Hawks may have been in good shape to make the playoffs. That being said it would bring more exposure for the team. A lot more positive press than negative as well. But, what this really shows people, is maybe Atlanta isn't that bad. They made the playoffs they have plenty of cap room. They are relatively young. They are in a good market. They have new ownership. The sky is the limit. The only negative I can think of is not having a top 3 pick. Even though I don't think that is that bad. There are no guarantees in the draft and I think the positives of this scenario out weigh having a top 3 pick. This franchise has nothing but a chance to get better under this picture. Higher playoff seeds in the following years. Free agents would be more apt to sign here. I like free agents more than draft picks for the simple fact they have proven themselves in this league. Yes, I maybe missing out on the next Jordan or LeBron by not being in the top 3. I'm willing to take that risk on a proven commodity than an unproven commodity. That my friend is smart business. Choosing the proven commodity over the unproven. In the long run I will be turning over a steady profit or winning in this case. That's just my thoughts. I know it is unpopular with everyone. But, I think there are different ways of rebuilding. This maybe a good way to do it as well. I just think the odds are better with the way I'm suggesting. Only time will tell. I just want to let fans know there are other ways to rebuild than rooting for the team to lose to get a top 3 pick. P

Did anyone watch last nights Toronto game? I got to watch the 4th qt and from watching it, I can pretty much say Glover lost the game for the Raptors. He made three consectutive TO's that led to 6 unanswered points for the Celtics. This took place when the game was tied and less than five minutes left to go. He did his usual head down to the basket, let's try a spin move and hope to get bailed out with a foul call. I'm glad we waived him. He is a ball hog. Now Toronto will be finding that out. P

I think Knight will trade JT. I don't think he likes anybody on our roster except Diaw. P

Living in Orlando, they are not interested in losing TMac at any cost. They are keeping their fingers crossed that he doesn't leave next off season. They are going to try to do everything to have a good off season to make TMac happy. P

Your right BHD, I work at a garbage dump for living. Picking up trash and looking for my new cardborad house. Your a joke. Just because I don't have the same views as you, don't insult me by saying I'm not smart enough to be a business man or an engineer. I don't need to justify myself by telling you my profession. Since we don't agree you must be dumber than a monkey, because even a monkey can make sense of everything I have said on this board for the last couple of weeks. Is that fair to say? Of course it isn't. So why don't you quit with the insults and lets have an intellectual debate. You have your feelings of how to rebuild a team and I have mine. Don't compare basketball to a manufacturing plant. It's not the same. There are different ways to rebuild. Did I say it was the wrong move to not make any of the trades Knight has made? No. The only one I had a problem with was Wallace. People make the arguement that we weren't going anywhere with Wallace. Well, how do you know? How do you know he wouldn't resign? How do you know we couldn't got more from him in the off season? How do all of you so called experts see the future? Please save it. You maybe right or you could be wrong did you ever think about that. I never could stand Babcock for the record. For all of you assuming that I did. My whole point to this arguement, is this I can't stand to have these so called Hawks fans rooting for this team to lose. If you are a fan you shouldn't root for them to lose. Let's say this, What if the lottery picks don't pan out and lets say we don't sign any significant free agents in the next three to five years. More importantly we are still losing. Players that we do have through the draft get better and sign with anoher team when they are a free agent. Because they don't want to stay in a losing environment. How good is the plan then BHD? Please tell me. The Clippers of the East Coast. We really aren't improving on our laughing stock image. Guess what Mr. Engineer/Business man no matter if you tear your company down to start over. Losing breeds losing. You have to have a small success and build on them. But, if the above scenario takes place. There is no success to be found. I will agree with you on one thing. Change had to be made. I think they were wrong to pull the quick trigger on Wallace, for reasons discussed above. But, to simply root for this team to lose. I don't think makes you a true fan. Even if you are looking for the gold at the end of the rainbow. You should always support the team and I don't think that is done by rooting for them to lose. It's funny you come on here and crack on Crawford and Sura. But the funny thing is that they might be all you have to cheer for in the next few years. Players just like Crawford and Sura. So you might want to get use to rooting for guys like that or you will be rooting for us to lose to get those precious lottery picks each and every year. Because we no what free agents think of Atlanta (hell, SJax even said it his article last week that people don't want to come here)and where these picks will go after their contract is up and isn't staying Atlanta. I hope I'm wrong and every draft pick we make is a superstar and all the good free agents want to sign in Atlanta. But comparing to Atlanta to other franchises in the league is like comparing, well McDonalds(other franchises) to Uncle Joe's BBQ(Atlanta). An established restaurant to single restaurant that no one knows if they are going out of business or about to thrive. Most smart business men will invest in the sure thing. Granted some can make millions gambling, but most fall flat on their faces. Let's hope we make the millions on gambling. Is that a good business analogy for you? P

Please explain how 5-4 is well over 80%? My math tells me that is 55%. Please tell me. Unless you know something I don't. P

Go back and look at their record since the trade. It started with the loss to Denver before the all star break. Maybe I missed counted so they may have gone 5-4. That still isn't way over 80%. Just get the facts straight. I know you are still bitter, but hey Reef wasn't going to make the playoffs here and now he won't make the playoffs there either. P

There is nothing to enjoy about this team losing. You like being a fan of a team that gets blown out by the Pistons. Watching on the dish and hearing punch line after punch line by the Pistons announcers. I guess that puts a smile on your face. I'm glad someone enjoys it. P

So tell me this KB, what if this team fails to get the first or second pick? They don't get that beloved superstar. What do you do then? Root for them to lose again next year? I'm not saying trading Reef and Ratliff was the wrong move. I think they should have kept Wallace they could have done better with him and gotten more from him in the offseason in my opinion. But, I think Knight is now forcing this team to lose. As for Knight, I will give him the benefit the doubt until the start of next season. Let's see what he does this off season. But, I don't think these guys are really hurt. I think is trying to make it as easy possible for this team to lose games on purpose. That I don't respect. You may think that is genius. Because we may land the 1st or 2nd pick. But if we don't, well he looks like an A-hole. Because we could have gotten more from Wallace this off season and we may have won more games with him to attract free agents. Let alone we would have only gained a couple of spots in the lottery. P

I think you are a joke or an embarrassment if you root for this team to lose. That is if you are a true Hawk fan. If you are then you shouldn't be rooting for the team to lose. Now that is just my opinion. But, I think true teams pull for their teams to win. Even if they do suck. No I don't live in California. I live in Florida and is just as bad here. Last night listening to the Orlando broadcastors making jokes about the Hawks. You think I appreciate that? Hell no. Especially when the Magic have the worse record in the league. The only way to shut those people up is by winning. And yes I have been to every Hawks game in Orlando. That is 15 years for a total of 30 games. But, I have never found myself sitting in the Orena rooting against the Hawks. So you maybe pissed called you an embarrassment as a fan, but you are if you deliberately root for this team to lose. You mine as well jump on the LA or King bandwagon. P

I think B. Knight deliberately puts players on the injured list. I think he does this to make the Hawks short handed on purpose. He wants to do everything in his power to make sure this team loses. Last night if they had anyone of the following guys Bracca, Person, Henderson or Hanson. They probably beat Orlando. I just think Knight is making the Hawks play with 8 or 9 just so they have had a better shot at losing. Even this pick up of Fuller I questioned. Orlando just picked up a guy that was averaging a double a double in that NBDL league (Pinacle, made the shot at the buzzer in the first half). We pick up a guy that is getting 6pts and 4 boards a game. Looks like Knight was just looking for a scrub from the NBDL to fit in with these NBA scrubs. Unlike most people on this site I root for this team to WIN. What kind of fan are you to cheer for them to lose. You better hope we end up with either the first or second pick. If not this franchise gets screwed again. But, then again for some of you it will be good. Because you can root for them to lose again next year. To try to get the next high school superstar. The sad thing is we could have easily won last night, but most of you on this site don't care you would rather have the team lose. You guys are an embarassment as Hawks fans. I said it. Have some pride. I don't care if you are banking your hopes on Howard or Okafor. I would still like to see this team win. You guys don't have to worry, your boy B. Knight will make sure it doesn't happen. Someone mentioned that Crawford has been playing well of late, but he will have an injury in a week or so. You are absolutely right. Knight will see to it. A mysterious ailment that finds him on the injured list. We can not have us winning games. I can't wait till they replace Knight in the off season. Please get Rivers in here as GM and Coach. I know he wouldn't deliberately try to lose games. I saw that first hand in Orlando. His first year he took a bunch a scrubs and got them to play 500 ball for the entire season. Thank goodness he didn't have Knight as a GM. Because he wouldn't have had it that way. By the way the 500 heart and hustle record led the team to signing McGrady and Hill. Shows you what winning could do for a team. P

Play, I wouldn't say the Blazers are way over 80%, because they have gone 4-4 since the trade that is 50%. As for who got the better of the deal only time will tell. P

KG is the man to have, all he asked his who you would want on your team, ignore salary P

News David Joseph might want to think about a new line of work. SportsLine.com's Jay Glazer reported that Joseph, the agent of 49ers' wide receiver Terrell Owens, failed to send in the necessary paperwork to void the last three years of the Pro Bowler's contract. As a result, Owens will not be a free agent until after the 2006 season. Browns' receiver Dennis Northcutt made a similar gaffe on Wednesday, taking another wide receiver off an already thin free agent market. Views We're not sure who is going to be more displeased with this blunder - Owens, the 49ers, or the Bay Area media. The cap-strapped 49ers now have Owens signed on for three more seasons, albeit at a relatively cheap price, and it will likely keep the team from filling other gaps this offseason. With Owens returning, the 49ers may also want to sever ties with Jeff Garcia, who doesn't have the best rapport with Terrell these days. Meanwhile, the teams positioning themselves to make a run at Owens may now have to refigure their offseason game plans, and Darrell Jackson has very little competition as the top free agent receiver on the market.

This is kind of funny do you think his agent has a job right now. LOL

This is kind of funny do you think his agent has a job right now. LOL

Fair Enough. But, one think I will state don't blame other teams for giving away their players. Some teams have to do it so they don't lose money. For example, the Devil Rays have a payroll around 38 million, lets say they increase their pay roll to 70 million. That is almost double what it is now. They would lose a lot of money. One being that they can not recoup a pay roll that size from attendance and the market they are in. The other being what is the purpose to have a pay roll that size. Lou Pinella is going to have a heart attack. He is so pissed about what the Yankees and Red Sox are doing. What's the sense of increasing pay roll when there is not a chance at winning the division or being a wild card. What's the point? No one is going to come out for an entire season to watch a team that is 15 to 20 games out of first. Tampa Bay could have their best year and win 85 games and in all likelihood not make the playoffs. So not only do they not make the playoffs they lose big in what they will have to pay. They will be losing money big time. It's just the economics of baseball. I just wouldn't say that teams deliberately give players away or don't want to win. Maybe one or two teams fall into that. Not all teams. Pittsburgh is the same as Tampa Bay and they even have a new stadium. I may see your point that teams have more of a chance to win a World Series before they win their own division. Because even you have to see that over a 162 game schedule the teams with the most talent will win. In a short series that isn't necessarily the case. P But you are right you will never see my POV and I will never see yours. I just thought I could bring a different perspective, because I'm not a Yankee fan. I just like baseball. I would prefer parity like the NFL. Some do not. I like the feeling of having every team being able to possiblly win the World Series.