TheNorthCydeRises

Quote: It not so much that we didn't get Paul. It's that Billy Knight failed to get us a true NBA starter at PG. Right. And we still have time to get that quality NBA starter at the point either with the Harrington trade, or during the offseason. Also keep this in mind. If we did draft Paul, it's safe to say that neither Salim or Joe Johnson are here. Why? I don't believe the Hawks would've went small guard . . small guard in the draft by taking Paul and Salim. The guy they would've taken, is Ronny Turiaf out of Gongaza . . who has a heart problem now. And drafting Turiaf probably means that we don't have ZaZa either. Either that, or they wait to go after ZaZa after finding out about Turiaf's heart condition. And instead of JJ, we probably go all out to get Eddy Curry or Tyson Chandler and toss the bank at them . . even with the risk on Curry. PG - Paul G - Chill F - Smoove F - Al C - Chandler or Curry So with this lineup, we'd have our PG and C . . but we'd still need a 2 and a backup PG, and a capable bench. And Diaw would still be here. That's not a good thing seeing how he struggled for 2 years here. People are wrong to assume that if we take Paul, that everything else would've fallen into place exactly the same way.

Nate Robinson . . . co Pac-10 Player of the Year last year . . along with Salim Stoudamire. Instead of typing everything out, here is his scouting report according to nbadraft.net Quote: Strengths: World class athlete... Simply on another plane with everyone else athletically... 42 inch vertical leap and 4.4- 40 yard dash speed... Very strong... Get’s to the hole at will... Able to finish at the rim well because of strength and jumping ability... A jitterbug... Constantly moving... Solid defender who is rarely beat off the dribble... Extremely quick hands and is always in the passing lanes... Rebounds well for his size... Excellent at positioning himself around the hoop... Decent ballhandler who plays at top speeds for the full game... Excellent condition... Rarely tires and excels at the end of games when most players are fatigued.... Does whatever it takes to win... Fearless... Doesn’t back down from anyone... Has a killer instinct... Excellent in the open court as he has great court vision and often finds teammates with nifty dishes... Also played defense and returned kicks for the UW football team... Decided to focus on basketball his sophomore year, but rumors are circulating that he will return to the gridiron... Possible NFL future.... ****** Weaknesses: Listed at 5-9, but is closer to 5-7... Shot is questionable at this point... Inconsistent at times... Often get’s too wild and tries to do too much, but when he plays within himself he can do great things... More of a scorer than a shooter right now... Needs to distribute the ball more... Height along with shot are the biggest issues... In other words, Nate is like a steroid version of Earl Boykins. If Nate was 6 - 2, he would've been the #1 pick in the draft last year because of his quickness and leaping ability. Just like if Salim was 6 - 4, he'd probably have been a top 3 pick at least. But because Nate is 5 - 8 or 9, everyone always question his ability, even if they know that they shouldn't. This guy will win the dunk contest on All-Star weekend if he doesn't miss his dunks. As great of a leaper as Spud Webb was, Nate is that, and more, because he can dunk with power . . at 5 foot 9 inches. As much as I love what Salim Stoudamire brings to this team, I'd trade him in a second for Nate Robinson. Nate isn't one of those great passing PG's, he's just a great floor leader. And he's very aggressive going to the hole, something this team isn't good at doing. LOL @ the Knick's website. Looks who's picture is on the page? http://www.nba.com/knicks/ With Steph already trying to convince LB to play him at the 2, in the same role he had Iverson in, look for Nate to crack that starting lineup soon . . especially if he keeps playing well off the bench. If not, LB is a complete idiot. You don't keep guys who can ball, off the court. You hear that Woodson? You don't keep guys who can ball, off the court.

What's really scary . . or frustrating about this team . . is that the Hawks could legitimately be 6 - 6 right now. - 2 pt loss @ Portland . . on a questionable aiss call - 1 pt loss vs Memphis . . because of missed FTs and the inability to secure a rebound in the final second - 3 pt loss @ OKC . . after the amazing comeback and having the ball with a chance to take the lead in the final 20 seconds - 2 pt loss vs Portland . . after blowing a double digit lead in the 2nd half and going ice cold in the 4th quarter. Even with all of this team's flaws, the Hawks could EASILY be 6 - 6 right now . . which would tie us with Milwaukee as the #8 seed in the East. So at 6 - 6, would we be having the same complaints about this team? Would we be willing to trade off key guys, just for the sake of filling "needs" with less talented players? To be honest with you, I think this is all about these guys learining how to play with each other, and giving a FULL AND COMPLETE EFFORT while on the court, than about the need for a PG or coaching mistakes. These guys have to realize that each and every player on this team is going to have to scrap and claw every minute on the court, in order for us to win games. You said it yourself in another thread. One of the things killing this team, is the lack of production from Marvin Williams. And you can add about 2 - 3 more people to that lack of production list. ( Lue, Childress, Smith ( at times ), etc ) And production doesn't necessarily mean points all the time either. It's the little things that KILL this team. Not blocking out . . not being aggressive on offense . . not hitting free throws in critical points in the game . . not fighting through screens to get to shooters. Basically, it's all about desire, smart play, and the ability to do the little things it takes to win games. People always talk about Salim . . but to be honest, he's the only one on this team that seems to get it. That's why the Hawks need to make a point to play the guy 30 minutes a game . . even if his shot isn't falling. When he's on the court, he seems to do the little things to help his team.

Quote: Well, I will say it like this... I believe that Chillz will be better than Miller. I have seen Miller straight up Suck.. But I have to wonder if Miller would compliment JJ well? It might be extreme and a thought unspoken, but we might ought to think about JJ being the one that moves. I mean, his lofty salary and his great skillset could get us a lot in return... I say this knowing that he's the best thing we have had in Atlanta.. BUT if we can't compliment him well, why not shop around.. I would definitely look at a JJ for Mobley, Wilcox, and a 1st (unpro). (( Taking the bottle of Grey Goose away from Diesel )) Mobley, Wilcox and a 1st round pick may not be as much as you think. I'd rather build the team around JJ and Al . . instead of Al and some nice players with no upside. I don't think Mobley and Wilcox up their games if they come to ATL. Mobley is a nice SG, but I can't see the guy ever playing better than he is right now . . especially if he comes to a team without a quality PG. And Wilcox? He's never impressed me on offense or defense. He'd be a backup behind ZaZa and he wouldn't improve us defensively. And that 1st round pick may be very low, seeing that the Clips have the 5th best record in the NBA right now. So we trade JJ for a 1st round pick that may be 20th or below . . a nice, but aging SG that may see his game regress without a quality PG . . and a PF/C that may not be much better than Obinna Ekezie? Thanks but no thanks. I'll take my chances with JJ's upside as a player, over that trade.

You can live with Salim's turnovers, if he's agressive and making more positive plays than negative. 6 is too many. 3 is probably about right for him, if he plays 30+ minutes. With more experience at the position, the ball handling is bound to get better. Maybe Salim could become a mini Sam Cassell in the coming years.

T-Mac, when a team scores 57 points in a half, you can't use that "back to back night" excuse. Key word for the 1st half: AGGRESSIVENESS Al was outstanding. Salim was great. And Chill, Smoove, and ZaZa played within themselves and did a good job. Key word for the 2nd half: SUSTAIN We'll see if a well rested Joe Johnson can come out and really assert himself in this 3rd quarter. We'll see if Salim and Al can sustain that aggressiveness and continue to make plays on the offensive end. And we'll see if we can shore up that perimeter defense, seeing that Boston is 6 - 9 from 3 point range. Come on fellas, come out like you want it in this 3rd quarter. Blow this game open . . in our favor.

Nice stuff from Trace. Exodus, not to beat a dead horse to death, but I think you do understand what Salim brings to the table . . but you're too caught up in "who can play what position". I'm all for Lue playing the PG, even starting at PG, IF . . and that's a big IF he can make good decisions, run the team, and be aggressive on offense. When he's on the floor, that's should be the attitude he has to take. He did it in the first game of the year, but really hasn't done it since then for an entire game. If he can't do those things with JJ and others on the court, he then becomes a huge liability to this team. And if Salim is to be on the court during crunch time, who is running the team? Is Lue in the backcourt with Salim at the 2 and JJ at the 3? Or is JJ running the team, with Salim sharing some of the duties, while being one of the designated scorers. In all of these discussions, I don't think any of us expect Salim to run the team more than JJ would when he's out on the court. What we do expect, is for each of those guys to play off of each other and get their shots. What it comes down to is which 2 guard combos can work the best together and be the best asset for the team? JJ and Lue or JJ and Salim? Here's to Lue having a monster game tonight and leading us to victory with a 13 point - 7 assist night . . with JJ scoring 26 points and 3 assists playing mostly at the 2. Here's also to Salim having a 17 point - 3 assist night playing off of JJ, who'll have a 22 point - 7 assist - 6 rebound night as the "do it all" man. Either way will suit me fine, as long as we get the W. But for us to get the W, one of those 2 things need to happen, regardless of which backcourt gets the most time tonight. I'm not going to argue tonight, so you can have the last word on this if you want.

Rondo's "kryptonite" is his FT shooting. As a guard, you'd like his FG shoting to be over 75%, but he shoots in the high 50s%. I've seen Kentucky games last year, in which Tubby had to take Rondo out of the game during situations in which the other team started fouling to cut a lead down. It's just strange to see a PG shoot that low from the FT line. Other than that, his game is pretty dang good, even with the suspect jumper. He's easily on of the quickest, most explosive guards in college right now.

Quote: Well...I think any coach can lead a team to an 0-8 record. So it isn't like he's doing an "amazing" job for starters. There are some things about Woody that I don't like... I don't like how deep he goes into his bench. I know we're short on big men, but there are times when there really is no need to yank ZaZa, and Woody'll throw John Ed or Bat in there for extended minutes. I don't like seeing Lue and Salim on the court. I don't care what kind of advantage it gives us, it puts us at an extreme disadvantage on the defensive end...maybe even offensively too. There are times when Salim should be brought in to shoot...and you can hear Smitty going on about it in the commentary; but it's like Woody will wait until the last minute...or until it's time to play catchup... And even then, nothing is run for him. It's like Woody brings Salim in, but he wants the guys to figure it out. So you've got Al continuing to hack away, JJ continuing to try and do it all, and Lue dribbling until the cows come home. Even if the plays break down for him, he's got SO many guys that can clean up on the glass and a couple of guys who can nail the 15' - 20' shot. I don't like that he isn't trying to work with our guys who are struggling. Chill is great at cutting and getting to the basket, why isn't anything being ran for him? No curls, no picks, nothing... He seems content to let these guys figure out how they want to play as opposed to working with their strengths...why aren't we working a two man game with Al and JJ? Our best inside/outside combo? Why isn't Salim playing off of that, seeming as how both of these guys are capable of creating so much chaos in the paint and from the outside...and they both are good passers... Our defense is suspect...but we've got guys who are decent defenders. JJ, Al, Chill, Smoove...these guys aren't slackers. ZaZa isn't a stiff... Even Lue has his moments. What's the deal? It's like, we have no defensive cohesion out there...and serious lack of focus. Lapses that allow guys like Kaman to walk down the lane and dunk... Poor ball movement, strange combos, lack of focus from the players, regression of our 2nd year guys, CONSTANT ill advised shots (though I think Smoove's benching has calmed him down some)...and a lack of utilization of our strengths. We've got 4 guys in Salim, Al, JJ, and ZaZa who are pretty good at getting buckets... Many of our guys are better than average passers...but we look so stiff and separated out there. Like a pickup team full of strangers. With guys like Al, Chill, and Smoove who can jump pretty good...and with all these guys being able to pass...there should be lobs and sh!t all over the place. ANd I've seen Woody run 1 or 2 plays out of the timeouts for it... I dunno man...he isn't terrible; but even Stotts had these guys going out there LOOKING like they wanted to win. These guys, even though they're so young and whatnot, show strong at different parts of the game...and look lost at others. They play up to the good teams and down to the bad. If they looked that way for the entire game, I'd say...yeah, our main problem is personnel. There are games we could have (and maybe should have) won though...and in those situations, I think a different coach would have found a way to get it done. Ultimately, I think our guys need to get more familiar with each other; and inexperience has a lot to do with it. Though, in the end (read: near future), we will have an established coach that knows how to maintain intensity and focus and knows how to get the most out of his guys. excellent post

Quote: anyone think that josh smith can grow to become a shawn marion type player. he gets the blocks, with some maturity will get the rebounds, with maturity and hard work will develope the shot. marion is the guy that smooth reminds me the most of. he just has to be given time to grow. imagine if you were 19 going against the best in your industy and on top of that already making millions of dollars I agree. I was hoping that he'd have that same type of impact on this team, seeing that he is by far the most athletic player on the team. Shawn has always been a jumping jack and an energy type player. He was like that in high school, where he and Trenton Hassell were a lethal combo ( even though they didn't win a state title ). Even at UNLV, Shawn was always the guy that made a point to go and grab rebounds, especially on the offensive boards. Imagine if Smoove could get 6 points a night via offensive rebounds. That may not sound like much, but it would be the garbage type baskets that could improve his worth to this team. I agree with exodus when he says that Smoove could be a nice defensive presence in the middle. But he'll have to make that commitment to defense while the ball is on the floor, and while it's in the air, for him to become that player we all want him to be.

Quote: Rondo is listed at 6'1". I am all for Salim getting more minutes. In fact it is a safe bet he would be better at pushing the ball up the court than JJ. But in a half court set he hasn't shown pg skills. If he does develop them then great. And Salim was the 31st pick for a reason, and it wasn't his height. Felton and Paul are the same height and went top 5. Maybe one of you could explain why he fell to 31. Because most believed those "weaknesses" that those sites listed. They saw him as an undersized shooting guard. Scouts had concerns about other 2nd round guys like Nick Van Exel, Michael Redd, and Manu Ginoboli too. They turned out to be OK . . LOL. They fail to realize that Salim's strengths far outweigh his weaknesses. And guys like Greg Anthony and other NBA "experts" have been on record as saying that we got the "steal" of the draft, when we got Salim at #31. He's a top 10 - 15 talent with questionmarks that dropped him out of the 1st round. And LMAO @ you for listing the "weakness" section on those sites. Hmmm . . let's see what those sites you listed said about Salim, as strengths: nbadraft.net Quote: NBA Comparison: Nick Van Exel . . Hmmm . . how ironic. Strengths: Explosive scorer ... Has unlimited range on his jumper ... Lightning-quick release ... Good release point and rotation ... Outstanding clutch performer ... Seems to raise his level of play for bigger games and pressure moments... Has no conscience ... When he gets in a groove, he simply cannot be defended ... Shoots a high percentage ... Stronger than he looks ... Stellar free-throw shooter ... Moves well without the basketball ... Shifty ... Knows how to get his shot off in tight spaces ... Plays with supreme confidence ... Surprisingly athletic at times ... Can explode for huge dunks ... Improving on the defensive end ... Knows the game ... Has bounced back from disappointing junior season to put together an impressive senior campaign. draftexpress.com Quote: Salim is the best shooter in college basketball and without a doubt is the best shooter in this upcoming draft. The statistics do not lie, he shot a ridiculous percentage of 50.4% from the three-point line his senior year, which leads the nation. He shoots a very soft jump shot, getting great arch and rotation on the ball, with an extraordinarily quick release. He has a high release on his shot and that makes it very hard to block. Salim does not have trouble getting his shot off either, and he is surprisingly accurate even when his feet are not set, or if he is shooting off the dribble, moving left or right, fading away, with a hand in his face, from forty feet outit just doesn't matter how he shoots it, the odds are the ball is going to end up in the bottom of the net. Salim is extraordinary at getting the proper footwork on his jump shots and setting himself before the ball comes to him. He can step on a dime and pull up for a lightning quick jumper, often more his defender even realizes what happened. He moves well without the ball and is very calm and under control on the basketball court. He does not need much room to get his shot off from the outside. He is not only a three-point shooter, but that is what he does best and is where he is most dangerous. He will not have a difficult time making the move back to the NBA three-point line because he already shoots shots from that distance, and even beyond. He has improved his ball handling skills since he first entered college, being able to create going to the hoop now at times. He has a sneaky quickness about him and controls the basketball well, not being afraid to take the ball with purpose to the basket if he can. He dribbles close to his body and he protects the basketball as well in terms of shielding off the defender. Salim has also matured over these four seasons at Arizona. He used to have a little bit of an attitude and did not get along well with his teammates. That has begun to change this past season, as he has shown to be a vocal leader at times that isn't afraid of taking his team on his back or taking big shots. He has learned how to channel his angry and aggression to help himself on the basketball court. Now he looks like a very calm costumer for the most part and an extremely tough competitor. Stoudamire is left-handed, which makes him just that much more difficult to react to as most players are used to guarding right handed players, unless the scouting report tells them otherwise and they internalize that. Yep . . sounds like a leader to me. Everybody knows that Salim will more than likely not develop into some 6 - 7 assist guy. But he could easily develop into a 15 - 20 ppg scorer, if teamed with the right combination of guards/teammates. Even with JJ, he could get 15 ppg, if he got 30 + minutes. And right now, the Hawks need that 15 - 20 ppg scorer to add to whatever Al, JJ and ZaZa is going to give us on a nightly basis. And if he can average 3 - 4 assists along with that, it'll be just icing on the cake. Until your boy Lue steps up and PROVES that he not only wants the starting PG guard, but also could help the team by starting at PG and getting major minutes, he should stay on the bench with another much maligned SG/SF that happened to played his college ball at Stanford. Salim's aggressiveness, confidence, and production has essentially sent both Childress and Lue to the bench . . hopefully. Those guys just don't want it bad enough, compared to Salim. They don't have the "star" mentality. Salim has that. And that's what will drive him to have a nice career in the NBA. The upside of a Salim/JJ backcourt, far outweighs a JJ/Lue backcourt. Lue is what he is . . a backup PG that can do nice things sometimes. But on most nights, he's just not starter's material.

Without Hinrich, the Bulls would be forced to start Gordon, just from a scoring standpoint. And both Hinrich and Duhon are pretty good defenders and playmakers. Hinrich thinks he can shoot a whole lot better than he really can though. Too bad Lue isn't a good defender, he could warrant more time on the court, even when he is passive on offense.

Quote: I have to admit, I was surprised at what this review said: Quote: Because of his small stature [he] will have to play the PG in the NBA. So he needs to improve his Assist to Turnover ratio and concentrate on passing more. Although proficient at the point, [he] is a natural scorer and that could cause problems down the road...Off the court issues could scare some teams away as well. Yeah, this scouting report makes me wonder about Salim's ability to play a significant role at the small guard in the NBA... ...especially since this review was Ben Gordon's. LOL . . Exactly. And Chicago can afford to bring Ben Gordon off the bench, because they have a capable PG to run the show in Hinrich. Whatever future PG the Hawks obtain, they need to make sure that it's a big PG. I believe Rondo is 6-4, so that's about the minimal size PG we need playing alongside Salim when he's in the game. That big PG needs to at least be able to guard the 2's in this league, while Salim guards the 1. The difference between guys like Gordon, Salim and Jameer Nelson for that matter, and great small college guards like Shawn Respert, Randolph Childress, Steve Alford, or a Mateen Cleaves . . . is that Gordon, Salim and Nelson don't necessarily have to be wide open, or need a lot of picks, to get their shot off and make it. Meanwhile, Respert, Childress, and Alford, while GREAT college guards, couldn't even survive more than 2 - 3 seasons in the NBA because they couldn't create their own shot. I know us old time Hawks fans remember Rodney Monroe, out of NC State. The old "Fire and Ice" backcourt with he and Chris Corchiani . . arguably one of the best ever college backcourts. Hawks draft Monroe, hoping he'd be the answer at the 2. LOL. That dude couldn't hit the side of a barn, with the man to man defenses in the NBA.

And you still can't dispute the fact that when that one "legit" PG plays this year, bad things tend to happen while he's on the court, than good things. The bottom line is: which guard combo makes this a better team overall? JJ & Lue or JJ and Salim? Most Hawks fans know the obvious answer to this question. And the answer is not your boy Lue. You know what's another MAJOR drawback about Lue? Most PG's are leaders. There's no way that Lue is a leader. He doesn't have that quality about him. Ironically, Phoenix fans were telling us all summer that JJ doesn't have those qualities either. And I think there's no disputing that Salim DEFINITELY has leadership qualities. So if I have a choice between two guys ( Lue and JJ ) who may or may not step up to lead this team in critical situations . . or between a guy that I know can be a leader and a guy that I know who might be more comfortable in a non-leadership role ( Salim and JJ ), then I'm taking the latter duo. I mean, if Lue is the only legit PG on this team, why isn't he acting like a legit PG? You might have to admit that on this squad, he's not the most effective PG.

Here what's completely crazy about these Lue defenders. They would want us to believe that when Lue is in the game, he's deferring ALL of the ball handling and playmaking decisions to JJ while they are on the court together. That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. Fact is, Woodson has Lue on the court with JJ to be an EXTRA ball handler and distributor. He's not deferring to JJ to run the offense. A true PG isn't just going to defer to another guy and not try to be a playmaker, just because someone else on the court tries to do the same thing. And if this IS what Lue is doing, this only strengthens the argument to see him get more bench time. The Golden St. game showed everything that was good and bad about Lue's game. He did a good job in taking good shots and being in attack mode, when coming off the bench. He had 16 points in that game and shot 6 - 12, because he was being aggressive. Lue also had 4 assists. And it should be noted that he got a good deal of those points with JJ in the lineup with him. But he also had 4 turnovers in like a 7 minute span in that game, with all of them coming at the end of the 3rd/beginning of the 4th quarter. Meanwhile, his counterpart was NOT Baron Davis, but Derek Fisher, who had 4 points, 4 assists, and was directly responsible for 3 of Lue's turnovers in that stretch. Salim, by the way, went 0 - 5 FG in that game. But ever since that game, Lue hasn't been the same player, from an attacking standpoint. LA Clippers : 2 - 8 FG in 23 minutes. 8 points, 4 assists, 3 turnovers. Salim goes 5 - 8 FG ( 3 - 4 3FG ) with 15 pts, 2 asst, and 3 TOs. [ NOTE: Game was pretty much a blowout, once JJ left in that 1st quarter. The Hawks, with Lue, Childress and others on the floor, just couldn't score. By the time JJ gets back in, we're down 9. ] Portland : Lue goes 2 - 5 FG and has 8 points and 5 assists. Salim goes 4 - 11 FG ( 5 - 6 FT ) and has 15 points and 2 assists. [ NOTE: 3 of the 5 assists come in the 1st 5 minutes of the game, where he is the starter. Matter of fact, all of his assists came while playing with JJ. This kind of debunks the notion that he's not doing his share of the distribution/ball handling with JJ in the lineup. Ironically, when the game was on the line in the 4th quarter, not only did Lue not score, he didn't even shoot the ball or have 1 assist, at a time when the Hawks couldn't buy a shot. The strength of his game, being aggressive on offense, seemed to disappear from him. ] LA Lakers: Lue - 13 pts on 5 - 10 FG, 2 asst, 3 TOs . . Salim - 7 pts 3 - 6 FG. [ NOTE: Lue starts again and plays well, especially in the 2nd quarter, scoring 9 of his 13 points in that quarter. But then, Smush Parker, of all people, takes over the game, scoring 15 of his 21 points in the 3rd quarter. 7 came against Lue to open the quarter, 8 came against Salim to close the quarter. ] LA Clippers #2 : Lue - 8 pts on 4 - 7 FG, 2 asst . . Salim - 11 pts on 3 - 9 FG, 1 asst [ NOTE: While this was the game in which Childress and Smoove took a lot of heat in, it starts to show a trend about the difference between Salim Stoudamire's presence on the court, and Lue's presence on the court. For whatever reason, this team just seems to play harder with him in the game. I don't know if it's because of his presence on the floor, the personnel that's on the floor, or the game situation itself. When team's start to go on runs, Lue becomes more passive and defers to others more, while Salim becomes even more aggressive to put the outcome of the game in his hands. The mentality is even more evident, when you see these guys in person, which I did in the next game. ] Memphis: Lue - 7 pts on 3 - 8 FG shooting, 2 asst . . Salim - 10 pts on 4 - 7 FG, 4 asst. [ NOTE: This just happened to be the game that I saw live at Philips Arena. Even though JJ had a bad shooting night, he was aggressive, along with Marvin, Smooove, and Salim, who were instrumental in the Hawks almost winning that game. When people talk +/- numbers, these are the things that the +/- ratio shows. 1st Quarter with Lue ( Hawks outscored 19 - 10 ) . . Salim in the game ( Hawks outscore Griz 13 - 5 to close the quarter ) 2nd Quarter with Salim ( Hawks outscore Griz 4 - 1 ) . . Lue and Salim together on the court ( Hawks outscore Griz 2 - 0 ) . . Lue on the court with no Salim ( Griz outscore Hawks 17 - 11 ) 3rd Quarter with Lue ( Lakers outscore Hawks 8 - 4 . . and by the way, the 8 points that the Griz got was DIRECTLY because of Lue getting lost and letting Bobby Jackson drain two 3's and another long jumper ) . . Salim in the game for Lue ( Griz outscore Hawks 14 - 13 ) 4th Quarter with Salim ( Salim plays the entire quarter and the Hawks outscore the Griz 27 - 20. And it has to be noted that it wasn't Salim's offense that helped the Hawks get back in the game. It was his ball handling, playmaking and ( gasp ) his defense on Bobby Jackson, that got us back in the game ) ] San Antonio : Lue - 7 pts on 2 - 5 FG, 2 TOs . . Salim 11 pts on 5 - 9 FG, 4 TOs [ NOTE: Of course, this was AL's great 1st quarter game. But here's another case in which Lue's and Salim's presence on the court is definitely felt on the scoreboard . . in opposite directions. 1st quarter when Lue started the game ( Hawks outscore Spurs 20 - 10 : Harrington 16 points in that stretch ) . . Salim in for Lue ( Hawks outscore Spurs 11 - 8 : harrington 6 points in that stretch ) 2nd quarter Salim starts the quarter ( Spurs outscore Hawks 7 - 4 ) . . With Salim and LUe ( Hawks outscore Spurs 6 - 2 ) . . Lue w/no Salim ( Spurs outscore Hawks 17 - 5 . . Parker 8 pts in this stretch ) . . Salim in for Lue ( Spurs outscore Hawks 8 - 6 ) 3rd Quarter Lue starts the quarter ( Spurs outscore hawks 9 - 2 ) . . Salim in for Lue ( Spurs outscore Hawks 13 - 11 ) 4th quarter Salim starts the quarter ( Spurs outscore Hawks 10 - 0 . . one of the few stretches in games in which Salim's presence didn't stop a run ) . . Lue in for Salim ( Hawks outscore Spurs 12 - 9 ) Dallas: Hawks go big, so Lue doesn't start. Lue - 7 points on 2 - 5 FG, 3 asst . . Salim - 5 points on 1 - 6 FG. [ NOTE: That big lineup had the worst offense in the world, while Lue and Salim's presence on the court seemed to keep the game close. In the end, it really didn't matter who was on the court. ] NO/OKC Hornets: Lue - 5 points on 2 - 5 FG . . Salim - 30 points on 11 - 15 FG ( 4 - 7 3FG ), 4 rebs [ NOTE: It's unfair to compare Lue and Salim on this game, seeing that Salim had the monster 4th quarter. But yet again, when a team started a major run, Lue was in the game when it started. This game, it was midway in the 2nd quarter where the Hornets turned a 1 point deficit into a 9 point lead in a little under 3 minutes. All of these runs can't possibly be Lue's fault. But you can see why his +/- numbers are so bad because these runs are just "happening" while he's in the game. ] ************ I guess if we did the same type of floor time breakdown on Childress, that we would see the same thing. But what I'm illustrating here, is that for some "odd" reason, Salim's presence on the court, for the most part, either gets us back into games, or keeps us afloat in games. While Lue, for the most part, is part of major runs that are blowing us out of games. I guess this is just a Lue Conspiracy Theory though.

Quote: Quote: For Lue to be successful, he has to be the one running the show and taking the majority of the shots. That's what was happening last year. Lue is a Troy Hudson type player. Who else was going to take the shots last year? Show me one "Troy Hudson" type player with a career 2.7 assist to to ratio. LMAO. You talk like as if Lue has a 7 - 8 assist career average. That 2.71 A/TO ratio would be impressive then. But the guy has only averaged 3.5 assists/game for his career. That's like calling Smoove a decent defender, because of his block shot totals. All Lue's numbers can tell you, is that he's usually not turnover prone. But on the flip side, he's not a great set-up guy either. And under pressure, don't look for him to make a clutch play, shot or pass. And don't forget, Lue has gotten a chance to prove himself as a starter before. He had chances in Washington and in Orlando. And in each case, the team decided to go out and get another guy who could possibly do the job better because Lue couldn't quite do the job himself. LOL . . and both of those teams traded for "tweener" high scoring guards to try to run the show. ( Arenas and Francis ) As far as Salim never playing the point, that's not completely accurate. In Arizona's system, they pretty much require all of their guards to do some of the ball handling. That's why most of their guards can not only shoot the ball, they can find open people as well. Salim may surprise some people if he's given the PG job full time. Don't look for a lot of assists, but look for a lot of correct decisions when the game is on the line. I can't say the same, if Lue was running the show.

Quote: starting line up pg-chillz(cannot shoot so let him distribute the ball) sg-salim(set him up to score) sf-j.j.(set himup to score) pf-al(keep building his stock) c-zaza(continue to play well) i dont think we can go wrong by trying this!!!!!!! especially at 0-9. It wouldn't work, partially because Childress' game isn't Diaw's. But Childress wouldn't be the "point guard" in that lineup. He'd be the "point forward". With a team like ours, that doesn't have a true ball handling/distributing point guard, you need to have players all over the court who could shoot the ball. The whole JJ at PG concept wasn't a bad one, seeing what we had to work with since we didn't draft Chris Paul, and couldn't get a veteran PG to sign with us . . outside of Lue. What could be an immeadiate, but temporary solution to this team, outside of the obvious PG and C needs, is a 6 - 4 to 6 - 6 shooter/slasher. That would at least take some of the burden off of JJ to make all of the dang plays for this team. I think a "JJ at PG" lineup would have to include a player like that. So basically, we'd have to run a 3-guard offense, with JJ probably guarding the SF on defense. But JJ desperately needs at least 2 guys that can stretch the defense, with one of those guys possessing the ability to slash to the hole. LOL . . damn. That's Latrell Spreewell isn't it? I'm not necessarily saying to go out and get Spree. But a "Spree-like" player would help JJ a lot, until we get that PG.

Quote: I think we can all agree that Salim is a scorer. In order to score he would need to get shot attempts. Under which scenario will Salim be able to get more attempts? 1) When JJ, Zaza and Al are all in the game 2) When one or more of them are on the bench Shooting percentages: JJ - 43.9% FG Al - 41.2% FG ZaZa - 40.4% FG Salim - 47.4% FG Isn't the answer obvious? Reduce the number of shots that Al and ZaZa are getting, especially Al, since he struggles so mightily from the FT line . . and increase Salim's shot attempts. Al and ZaZa's extremely hight TO rates is a reason to give Salim more shots as well.

Quote: Quote: Yes, I am saying Lue can't score. That is simply moronic. Lue is a career 38% shooter from 3, 81% shooter from the line and was averaged 13.5 ppg for the Hawks last year. Open your eyes. Quote: And yes, I think Salim should start at PG. He is a rookie, and will make mistakes. But his upside for the team far outweighs a few TO's in his rookie campaign. We will never win with Lue at the point. Did we win last year with Lue at the point, when he took those "big shots"? No. Are we winning this year with Lue running the point? No. It's time to do things differently. It's called growing pains. They didn't win with Lue at the point last year because of lack of talent, although he was the main cause of a few of their wins. This year they have added JJ, Salim, Marvin and Zaza so they have many more weapons than last years team. And Lue hasn't been playing the point most of the time when he is in the game. Generally JJ has the ball in his hands and that is why the offense is so stagnant. So you want to take a guy who hasn't even played the point in college and make him the starter over a veteran who has played point his whole career and was very effective at the point last year? If you think that gives them the best chance of winning games this year then there is no point arguing with you. Some people on this board are still not getting it. Lue and Salim are basically the same player. The difference is that Salim has the "intangible" quality . . that fearlessness about him ( much like his cousin Damon ), that will enable him to do a lot more great things in critical situations, than Lue could ever imagine doing. Iverson has that quality. Baron Davis has that quality. Nick Van Exel has that quality. Chris Paul looks to have that quality. Even Earl Boykins has that quality about him. Even a guy like Nate Robinson ( who I'd trade for Lue in a heartbeat ), has that quality. For Lue to be successful, he has to be the one running the show and taking the majority of the shots. That's what was happening last year. Lue is a Troy Hudson type player. And you can't play those types of players limited minutes most of the time and get the most out of them. Problem is, you can't play them for long stretches either, because if they're not on their offensive game, their defense will absolutely destroy you. Salim could be added to this type of player as well. So because Lue and Salim are similar players, you have to make a decision on which one to play and which one will give you the best chance at winning games. We've tried starting Lue with JJ, and it didn't work ( especially in the 2nd half ). And these numbers just make the case for Lue being out on the floor with JJ, even worse. And once last night's game is calculated into these numbers, it'll only strengthen the case for Salim being out on the floor even more. http://www.82games.com/0506/0506ATL.HTM Here's some numbers for you Lue supporters. We won 3 games ( out of 29 ) once Walker left the team. In the 3 games that we won, Lue scored 29, 23, and 32 points respectively. Also in those 3 games, he only led the team in assists one time ( 6 assists in that final win ). So it wasn't Lue's floor leadership as a offense-running, distribution type PG that was enabling the Hawks to win games, it was his scoring ability as a guard who could get his own shot, that was doing it. Until we find that "dream PG" that can maximize the abilities of the players on this team, we have to play the players that will give us the best shot at winning. You don't even have to call Salim or JJ a "point guard". WE don't have one of those on this team right now. So we just have to play "ballas" who can do the things it takes to win games. Talking about what Lue did last year, is like talking about what Childress did last year. It's meaningless right now.

Quote: Why do you think this team is averaging 6 pts less than last year even though they added JJ, Zaza, Marvin and Salim? The reason is that they have a shooting guard playing the point. Ummmm . . no. The reason is because Childress' point production has fallen off by about that much and Smoove is shooting like 35% FG. That's the reason. It's not like Lue was getting those guys a bunch of fantastic looks at the basket either. And Lue is a shoot first type player, much like Salim. Lue did have a good year last year, especially after Walker left. He became one of the main scoring options on the team. The difference though, is that Salim has the ability to take over a game at any point and hit big shots. You're right, he's definitely a finisher. But he's also a starter as well. He could begin a 10 - 0 run by the Hawks if given the time, to extend leads . . instead of starting a 10 - 0 run to get us back in a game. The definition of insanity is "doing the same things over and over again, but expecting a different result". Starting Lue would be insanity because it's not like he's made himself, or anybody else on the floor with him this year, a better player. STarting Salim is totally rational, because it gives the Hawks a different look and a potential #1 type option to play with the starters. He could make JJ's life as a scorer much easier, because teams would have to respect Salim when he's on the court.

Quote: Quote: Give JJ and Salim credit for the comeback. Salim hates losing and he finally got the ball enough to take matters into his own hands tonight. For those of you who want to keep Salim on the bench, why? This team looked awful for 3 quarters tonight until Salim finally started going off. It was obvious something had to give and that something was Salim becoming a focal point of the offense instead of just a complementary player. It is very simple. You put players in the role that best suits their abilities. Why do you think this team is averaging 6 pts less than last year even though they added JJ, Zaza, Marvin and Salim? The reason is that they have a shooting guard playing the point. Lue played very well offensively as the full time pg last year, averaging 13.5 ppg with a 3.27 assist/to ratio, shooting 46%, 36% from 3. Those percentages were hurt because he didn't shoot that well his first few weeks. His weakness was D. The reason Lue has been struggling this year is that basically he has been playing the 2 with JJ handling the ball most of the time. Again they aren't using their players properly. JJ should NEVER play the point. he should play sg where he is most effective. Lue should start at pg with Salim backing him up. Salim won't be able to have strong finishes if he is already tired out by the 4th quarter. Not many players want the burden of taking the big shots but Salim obviously does. They should use him accordingly. That said he still needs to be getting more minutes in quarters 1-3 than he has been. Keep in mind that Salim wouldn't be able to get off so easily in the first quarters playing against fresh starters. They can draft a pg next year but until then Lue should be the starter. I'm surprised at you exodus. You made such a good argument the past few days against Childress and Harrington . . yet . . you want Lue in the lineup over Salim? The same reasons why you wouldn't mind Chill or Al being on the bench, are the same reasons why Lue should STAY on the bench. Lue is not only horrible on defense, he can't run the team like the PG we all want, because he doesn't have a high, or even average basketball IQ. Salim is not going to get tired at the end of games if he starts. Ish, he's been playing like this all of his life. The kid could easily handle heavy minutes in the NBA, seeing that he played heavy minutes in college. WE don't need him for bench energy . . we need him for starter energy. Maybe this is the guy that will keep JJ from going through those lulls like he's been doing. Yes, we don't have a PG. We all know that. So Woodson is just going to have to play the best guys available that will help us win games. And if that means that guys like Lue, Childress, and even Al have to sit the bench for long stretches, then so be it. The thing I like most about Salim, is that he's not afraid to fluck up. I think that's part of JJ's problem right now and that's definitely Childress' problem. Al and Smoove have the same mentality as Salim, but they just don't have the ability to come through in the clutch like he does. Thank God for Salim. Because I was on the verge of being pizzed off the entire weekend . . . until my Bengals beat the Colts.

Quote: Doesn't matter who it is against....Salim plays the same every night he will make mistakes but he gives effort...combine his shooting ability with his ability to get to the rim...he has good vision...add that with his chip and some good coaching and Salim can be special. He is more talented than Gordon in my opinon. I agree with his cousin Damon when he said Salim is the second best player on this team...but the team doesn't know it yet. I knew this type of game was coming from Salim. I just didn't know when. But I'm glad that it came tonight, because if this game would've stayed a blowout, it had the potential to be a devestating loss to this franchise, to the fan base, and to anybody else who even remotely supports the Hawks. I can see the headlines in the AJC sports section now: "Hawks get stung by the Hornets" "Paul proves why he was the right choice for the Hawks" "Johnson a no-show in 2nd half, as Hawks lose by 31" Instead, this fan base will be a buzz about Salim "bleepin" Stoudamire and his 24 point, 4th quarter performance. What would've been really disturbing about this loss, is that Joe only took 3 shots from like then 4 minute mark of the 2nd quarter, to the 2 minute mark of the 4th quarter. In actuality, Joe should've been the one taking all of those shots to try to get us back in the game, not Salim. But I guess that's not Joe's makeup. He may be our best player, but it very well may be Salim that ends up being the leader of the bunch. When you have a guy like Al and Smoove, who think they are 50% shooters from 15 feet and out, and a guy like Childress who looks shellshocked on offense these days, this team has NO CHOICE but to give Salim not only a starting position, but also 30 - 35 minutes a game and 15 - 20 shots a game. This team may have to give Salim that many shots, so that he can have an impact on the game. You just can't put him in for 6 - 7 minutes at a time, and see if he hits his first 2 or 3 shots. That Ben Gordon stuff isn't going to work here, because we don't have any decent outside shooters except JJ. Smoove had a nice all-around game too . . when he wasn't taking that mid-range jumper. But this team has to try to let JJ and Salim play together as much as possible. Maybe that'll be the tandem that can get us going and produce some wins.

Good debate between Diesel and exodus. Exodus, right now, has the stronger argument though. WE all know that Childress has talent. He showed that last season. But if the guy isn't going to be aggressive on the offensive end, and if he's just not good enough on the defensive end to guard the 2's, then Chill becomes a major liability to this team. Say what you want about our defense, but we're pretty bad on offense now too. Marvin got the start tonight over Lue, and it didn't translate into much. My question to Woodson, is . . why not start Salim in place of Lue and Marvin in place of Childress? I think Salim is going to be the guy to really step up and take a leadership role on this young team. Once he cracks the starting lineup, he may never come out. Unlike some of our other guys ( including JJ at times ), Salim will be in full attack mode throughout the game. When we start winning games, it'll be because of our offense and not our defense. To me, Childress has the same mentality toward the game as Trenton Hassell ( who I know personally ). Both are laid back type of guys on the court, that will do everything that the coach tells them to. And while both possess the ability to be decent offensive players, they defer to others, in order to do whatever particular job the coach wants them to do. In Trenton's case, it's to be the defensive stopper on the T-Wolves. He sacrifices his offense, in order to put more effort toward defense. Problem with Childress, is that even if he is playing hard on D, it's not translating on the court. And since he's so passive on O right now, his presence on the court is actually detrimental to the team. I'm not giving up on Childress because it would be stupid to do that right now. But it also wouldn't hurt to start Marvin and Salim with Al, JJ, and ZaZa . . just to see if it will light a spark with this team. It wouldn't hurt one bit to start these guys for the next 4 - 5 games.

Stop the Chill bashing. No one was bashing him when the season started. He's just not playing with confidence for some strange reason. Hell . . most of us probably would've agreed that he was our 3rd best player before the season started.

Al 0 - 7 since 1st quarter. And you have to love the Spurs lay up drill