TheNorthCydeRises

Quote: Why do you think this team is averaging 6 pts less than last year even though they added JJ, Zaza, Marvin and Salim? The reason is that they have a shooting guard playing the point. Ummmm . . no. The reason is because Childress' point production has fallen off by about that much and Smoove is shooting like 35% FG. That's the reason. It's not like Lue was getting those guys a bunch of fantastic looks at the basket either. And Lue is a shoot first type player, much like Salim. Lue did have a good year last year, especially after Walker left. He became one of the main scoring options on the team. The difference though, is that Salim has the ability to take over a game at any point and hit big shots. You're right, he's definitely a finisher. But he's also a starter as well. He could begin a 10 - 0 run by the Hawks if given the time, to extend leads . . instead of starting a 10 - 0 run to get us back in a game. The definition of insanity is "doing the same things over and over again, but expecting a different result". Starting Lue would be insanity because it's not like he's made himself, or anybody else on the floor with him this year, a better player. STarting Salim is totally rational, because it gives the Hawks a different look and a potential #1 type option to play with the starters. He could make JJ's life as a scorer much easier, because teams would have to respect Salim when he's on the court.

Quote: Quote: Give JJ and Salim credit for the comeback. Salim hates losing and he finally got the ball enough to take matters into his own hands tonight. For those of you who want to keep Salim on the bench, why? This team looked awful for 3 quarters tonight until Salim finally started going off. It was obvious something had to give and that something was Salim becoming a focal point of the offense instead of just a complementary player. It is very simple. You put players in the role that best suits their abilities. Why do you think this team is averaging 6 pts less than last year even though they added JJ, Zaza, Marvin and Salim? The reason is that they have a shooting guard playing the point. Lue played very well offensively as the full time pg last year, averaging 13.5 ppg with a 3.27 assist/to ratio, shooting 46%, 36% from 3. Those percentages were hurt because he didn't shoot that well his first few weeks. His weakness was D. The reason Lue has been struggling this year is that basically he has been playing the 2 with JJ handling the ball most of the time. Again they aren't using their players properly. JJ should NEVER play the point. he should play sg where he is most effective. Lue should start at pg with Salim backing him up. Salim won't be able to have strong finishes if he is already tired out by the 4th quarter. Not many players want the burden of taking the big shots but Salim obviously does. They should use him accordingly. That said he still needs to be getting more minutes in quarters 1-3 than he has been. Keep in mind that Salim wouldn't be able to get off so easily in the first quarters playing against fresh starters. They can draft a pg next year but until then Lue should be the starter. I'm surprised at you exodus. You made such a good argument the past few days against Childress and Harrington . . yet . . you want Lue in the lineup over Salim? The same reasons why you wouldn't mind Chill or Al being on the bench, are the same reasons why Lue should STAY on the bench. Lue is not only horrible on defense, he can't run the team like the PG we all want, because he doesn't have a high, or even average basketball IQ. Salim is not going to get tired at the end of games if he starts. Ish, he's been playing like this all of his life. The kid could easily handle heavy minutes in the NBA, seeing that he played heavy minutes in college. WE don't need him for bench energy . . we need him for starter energy. Maybe this is the guy that will keep JJ from going through those lulls like he's been doing. Yes, we don't have a PG. We all know that. So Woodson is just going to have to play the best guys available that will help us win games. And if that means that guys like Lue, Childress, and even Al have to sit the bench for long stretches, then so be it. The thing I like most about Salim, is that he's not afraid to fluck up. I think that's part of JJ's problem right now and that's definitely Childress' problem. Al and Smoove have the same mentality as Salim, but they just don't have the ability to come through in the clutch like he does. Thank God for Salim. Because I was on the verge of being pizzed off the entire weekend . . . until my Bengals beat the Colts.

Quote: Doesn't matter who it is against....Salim plays the same every night he will make mistakes but he gives effort...combine his shooting ability with his ability to get to the rim...he has good vision...add that with his chip and some good coaching and Salim can be special. He is more talented than Gordon in my opinon. I agree with his cousin Damon when he said Salim is the second best player on this team...but the team doesn't know it yet. I knew this type of game was coming from Salim. I just didn't know when. But I'm glad that it came tonight, because if this game would've stayed a blowout, it had the potential to be a devestating loss to this franchise, to the fan base, and to anybody else who even remotely supports the Hawks. I can see the headlines in the AJC sports section now: "Hawks get stung by the Hornets" "Paul proves why he was the right choice for the Hawks" "Johnson a no-show in 2nd half, as Hawks lose by 31" Instead, this fan base will be a buzz about Salim "bleepin" Stoudamire and his 24 point, 4th quarter performance. What would've been really disturbing about this loss, is that Joe only took 3 shots from like then 4 minute mark of the 2nd quarter, to the 2 minute mark of the 4th quarter. In actuality, Joe should've been the one taking all of those shots to try to get us back in the game, not Salim. But I guess that's not Joe's makeup. He may be our best player, but it very well may be Salim that ends up being the leader of the bunch. When you have a guy like Al and Smoove, who think they are 50% shooters from 15 feet and out, and a guy like Childress who looks shellshocked on offense these days, this team has NO CHOICE but to give Salim not only a starting position, but also 30 - 35 minutes a game and 15 - 20 shots a game. This team may have to give Salim that many shots, so that he can have an impact on the game. You just can't put him in for 6 - 7 minutes at a time, and see if he hits his first 2 or 3 shots. That Ben Gordon stuff isn't going to work here, because we don't have any decent outside shooters except JJ. Smoove had a nice all-around game too . . when he wasn't taking that mid-range jumper. But this team has to try to let JJ and Salim play together as much as possible. Maybe that'll be the tandem that can get us going and produce some wins.

Good debate between Diesel and exodus. Exodus, right now, has the stronger argument though. WE all know that Childress has talent. He showed that last season. But if the guy isn't going to be aggressive on the offensive end, and if he's just not good enough on the defensive end to guard the 2's, then Chill becomes a major liability to this team. Say what you want about our defense, but we're pretty bad on offense now too. Marvin got the start tonight over Lue, and it didn't translate into much. My question to Woodson, is . . why not start Salim in place of Lue and Marvin in place of Childress? I think Salim is going to be the guy to really step up and take a leadership role on this young team. Once he cracks the starting lineup, he may never come out. Unlike some of our other guys ( including JJ at times ), Salim will be in full attack mode throughout the game. When we start winning games, it'll be because of our offense and not our defense. To me, Childress has the same mentality toward the game as Trenton Hassell ( who I know personally ). Both are laid back type of guys on the court, that will do everything that the coach tells them to. And while both possess the ability to be decent offensive players, they defer to others, in order to do whatever particular job the coach wants them to do. In Trenton's case, it's to be the defensive stopper on the T-Wolves. He sacrifices his offense, in order to put more effort toward defense. Problem with Childress, is that even if he is playing hard on D, it's not translating on the court. And since he's so passive on O right now, his presence on the court is actually detrimental to the team. I'm not giving up on Childress because it would be stupid to do that right now. But it also wouldn't hurt to start Marvin and Salim with Al, JJ, and ZaZa . . just to see if it will light a spark with this team. It wouldn't hurt one bit to start these guys for the next 4 - 5 games.

Stop the Chill bashing. No one was bashing him when the season started. He's just not playing with confidence for some strange reason. Hell . . most of us probably would've agreed that he was our 3rd best player before the season started.

Al 0 - 7 since 1st quarter. And you have to love the Spurs lay up drill

LMAO . . and as I was typing that, the Spurs get 3 point blank shots to push the lead to 15. (( sigh again ))

Seeing that Al is 0 - 4 since the 1st quarter, you might be seeing a lot of Smoove this quarter. (( holding up 4 fingers )) This is our quarter

Hawks outscored so far 56 - 30 . . since the end of the 1st half. (( sigh ))

Quote: We can be up by 72 in the first half... If it's not past the third quarter, it means nothing. Somebody needs to teach Woody to make adjustments. Experience will have to teach Woody how to coach with a lead. Being tied at the Half might help him try to figure out what the Spurs are going to do and what he needs to do to offset it.. Because that's what Pop is doing! The adjustment: take everything to the basket The result: Spurs build a 9 point lead Hawklings trying to hang tough though and not let the game get out of hand.

Quote: LOL @ Diesel. Exactly. Tie game now.

I totally disagree. JJ hasn't averaged man FT attempts because he hasn't been asked to take the ball to the hole. One of the frustrations he had in Phoenix, was that he wanted to do a little more, and Phoenix just wanted him to be the sharpshooter/defender. I'm not saying that JJ should become a slasher/finisher exclusively. I'm just saying that when he DOES slash, he needs to go hard to the hole, and not weak. Until this team acquires a reliable PG to run the show, JJ will have to be able to go hard to the hole and get to the line. He has the skills to do it. He just needs to be looking for contact whenever he gets inside that lane. He got inside the lane quite a few times in the Memphis game. He just wasn't able to finish or draw a foul most of the time. That's the one thing I like about ZaZa. When he does decide to take his man off the dribble, he goes hard. He gets to the line 7 times a game. JJ needs to up his FT attempts to at least that point.

Quote: We all love the "What if - - " game and dream up ways to see if it will improve our beloved Hawks !! We all know that most trade ideas aren't really going to happen, but we like to think, "What if - - " Some get discouraged after a bad game, or in this case, the fact that we are 0-6 and looking at things to get worse before they get better, and want to "Do something - - NOW" Cooler heads prevail. We realise that rebuilding from the ground up, starting with nothing left over, now that Jason Collier, the last holdover, has passed away, will be a slow and mostly painful process. Trade ideas will continue to flourish. We will continue to cuss and discuss the merits of each one. I's entertaining. It keeps us from going insane with all this loosing. Even great teams have fans who want to trade their players. Why should we Hawk fans be any different?? We're not. We'll have to agree to disagree on this subject. I think talking about unrealistic trades do nothing but make the frustration even worse. Sure, we could use all of the guys that people have tossed out, but you have to look at the flip side too. Why would those teams take on a player that we don't want anymore? If anything, it'll be teams coming to US and looking for a guy, instead of the other way around. And more than likely, they won't come looking for Childress. They'll come looking for one of our rookies or Smoove, or possibly try to swindle us with some junk deal to get Al. Barring some miracle in Dalls ( or if Dirk is still hurt ), we're starting the season 0 - 8. After that, we go to Oklahoma City. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather talk about what lineup we can put out on the floor to beat the Hornets, than talk about trades that will never go down.

Quote: Yeti, to put things in perspective about the draft picks, name one player the Hawks have drafted in the last 10 years that is a better player than Joe. (( clapping )) I'm glad someone gets it. The trade for Joe will turn out to be the best thing the Hawks have done since acquiring Dikembe. JJ got his assists quietly because I know that at least 5 of those assists came off of jumpers. 2 by Salim, 2 by Marvin, and one by Smoove. If JJ is going to play the "playmaker" postion, he'll have to be surrounded by guys that can knock down the medium range jumper. JJ just had a bad shooting game. But he kept his head in the game enough to contribute in many different ways. ( see the 6 rebounds, 12 assists, and 3 steals ) The only flaw in Joe's game right now, is that he's not going to the hole hard enough to consistently draw fouls. Guys like Kobe and AI live at the FT line. Even a guy like Dominque used to routinely have an 8 - 22 shooting game, but would go 9 - 11 from the FT line, and end up with 30 points. So if JJ is going to go to the hole, he can't be tossing up those baby hooks and half lay-ups ( ala Magic Johnson ). He needs to go to the hole HARD, and make somebody foul him. That's the only thing his game is lacking at this point. Once he learns that, he's going to be a 22 - 25 ppg player EASILY. The last shot JJ missed in the Memphis game, was one of those floating lay-ups that he CAN make, but that one just rimmed out. Memphis gets the rebound and calls time out. Then Mike Miller takes that quick shot that ZaZa rebounds. ZaZa chokes at the FT line, and the rest is history.

Seriously people . . we're in the 2nd week of the season. The 2nd week. A lot of you are acting like we should be 4 - 2 right now. At best, we should be 3 - 3, but realistically 2 - 4 ( Portland, Memphis being the win . . with the other win possibly being against the Lakers. ) The Clippers are obviously vastly improved. So is Golden St. To be honest, the 0 - 6 start does suprise me. But seeing that we lost 2 games at the buzzer, also gives me hope about seeing this team reach that 30 win mark, IF we take care of business against the Eastern Conference lower and mediocre team. But when you guys toss out these trades for mediocre position replacements, I just have to wonder where your heads are at? - I'm not ready to give up on Childress or Smoove after 6 friggin games - I'm not ready to trade Al, just to make room for our youngsters - We haven't played an Eastern Conference team yet, the very conference in which the Hawks SHOULD get the majority of their wins aganst. And they match up much better against the East teams, than they do the West teams. - Salim and Marvin are obviously going to improve as time goes on. And they may improve quickly than most people think. - I'm sure in the heck are not willing to trade ANYBODY on this team, for the mediocre PG's and C's that most of you have been tossing around, just because we need help in those positions. *********** What every Hawks fan needs to understand, is that this team was destined to go through stretches in which they'd struggle to get wins. But they'll also go through stretches in which they win 3 in a row, 3 out of 5, 4 out of 6 games. But the bad stretches were more likely to come at the beginning of the season, than in the middle or near the end of the season. This is a young team, so you have to understand that young teams are very inconsistent and streaky. Woodson is going to have to tinker with this lineup for at least another week or two, before settling on the guys that will give us the best chance at winning games on a nightly basis. But for right now, Woodson is just going to have to go with the guys that are playing the best on that particular night. The only guys that have proven that they can bring it night in and night out, are JJ and ZaZa. That list will also include Al, once he gets back to being 100%. When you watch the Hawks in person, as I did Saturday night, you see what the problems are: - interior defense and perimeter defensive rotation - consistent perimeter shooting - inability to finish in traffic or drawing fouls - team is just "soft" all around You also see what this team is good at: - JJ and his shooting/playmaking ability - ZaZa's aggressiveness on the offensive end ( even if he is too soft to convert sometimes ) - Salim and Marvin having confidence in their games - Smoove showing the ability to be a dominant rebounder, when he sets his mind to it Trading Childress for a PG that isn't even starting on his current team, isn't going to solve our problems. Jack and Duhon may be good defenders, but they still don't provide the scoring punch that JJ needs to be playing with him on offense. The same goes for Devin Harris or Earl Watson. Trading Al for a big man is unrealistic, because how many decent big men are traded from teams that need them? You think trading Al for a Michael Sweetney type player is going to solve our interior defense problems? How about Adonyl Foyle? How about the "Kandi Man" in Minnesota? You just can't trade this guy for ANYBODY, just because we have a "need" at that position, and expect this team to suddenly become better. The NBA doesn't work like that. No matter what people say about Al, he's EASILY the 2nd best player on this team . . EASILY. I'd hate to see a game in which we don't have Al in the lineup. OOPS . . we already have seen what happens ( see the 1st Clipper game ) So in the meantime, we have no choice but to roll with what we have. Personally, I want to see this lineup start games: G - Salim G - JJ F - Williams F - Harrington C - ZaZa I think this lineup gives us the best chance to put points on the board and keep people honest on defense. With JJ being the main "playmaker" in this line up ( don't call him a PG if you don't want to, but he is easily our best playmaker ), he'll have the option to keep it himself and score, toss it out to Salim and Williams for open jumpers, or dump it down to Al or ZaZa to get them a look from 12 feet and in. With Salim and Williams starting, it'll also give the Hawks a more confident bunch out on the floor. Funny to say that about 2 rookies, but Salim and Williams are already poised enough to make the correct decisions with the basketball on offense ( whether it be to shoot it, or put it on the floor and try to make a play for someone else ). I liked the confidence that both players showed on Saturday night. Bringing Lue, Chill and Smoove off the bench, may pay off to be a better option for this team in the sense that they'll be able to do their thing against the other 2nd teamers, instead of mainly going up against the other team's starter. Look at Milwaukee. You think if the only thing they'd done was to bring in Bobby Simmons, that everything would be OK? NO. They not only had to draft Bogut, they had to trade Mason for Magloire, plus get back one of their 1st round picks from 2 years ago, and HOPE he played anywhere near the level he played in his rookie year. It pretty much took the Bucks 3 years to reshape that team from having Cassell, Big Dog and Allen, to the squad they have now. If you're a Hawks fan, you better be willing to wait AT LEAST that long, before we really start to turn the corner and become a legit 7 - 8 seed playoff team. But this WILL take time, unless one of these youngsters rapidly matures and becomes a star. So what does the future hold for us, seeing that we're now 0 - 6? Let's see: - we play the world champs in San Antonio tomorrow night - we play 5 of our next 7 and 8 of our next 12 games on the road ( 6 of those 8 teams made the playoffs last year ) - we don't have a significant stretch of home games until Dec. 16 ( in which we play 4 out of 5 at home ) and Jan 14. ( in which we play 7 straight and 8 out of 9 games at home ) - 13 of our next 22 games are on the road, with the vast majority of them coming against last year's playoff teams. In my opinion, these are the most winnable games until Jan 1st. * @ OK City * vs Boston * vs Portland * vs Miami ( if Shaq is still out ) * vs Toronto * @ Utah ( if AK is still hurt ) * vs New York * vs Philly * vs Charlotte * @ Toronto If we win all 10 of these games, that'll put us at 10 - 18 by Jan 1st. Personally, I'd be satisfied if we're 8 - 20. Realistically, we could be looking at a 6 - 22 record by Jan 1st. Having a Chris Paul or a Jamal Magloire here right now, probably doesn't change that, because we have so MANY holes . . not just one major hole. But before any of you talk about trading anybody, you better make damn sure that one of these kids can become a star by the end of December. If they can't, we really can't afford to let anybody go until that time. And if and when the time comes that we do have to trade Al, we bet not trade him for some scrub who has less ability than he does, from an impact standpoint.

Quote: It's simple... Kobe produced more than JJ. He was more effective. The Hawks aren't competetive. The Hawks are so low right now that lower isn't going to make much of a difference. This team MIGHT win 13 games. Bottom of the barrell. The point is that the Hawks are so bad right now it doesn't matter if JJ plays or not. I mean, they done atleast this well without him last year. It's early, but I don't think JJ has improved the Hawks anymore than Walker did at the start of last year. He brings some ball handling and some sort of Steve Smith like game, and that's not bad. But, it's not on the elite level and elite is the type of player the Hawks have paid for basically. Gotta love all of the negativity from Hotlanta. This dude is completely judging JJ on 4 games. Like he's supposed to come out and play like Michael Jordan or something. The guy goes 11 - 20 FG, pumps in 26 points to keep us in the game, yet, that's still not enough for Hotlanta. What about the other guys Hot? People have been saying all along that Chill and Smoove MUST step up their games and play better. If they played ANYTHING like they did at the end of last year, we'd probably be 2 - 2 right now . . not 0 - 4. Ask Kobe what the difference in actually having "help" feels like? He had Devean George, Lamar Odom, and Smush Parker giving him tremendous help the entire game. Kobe's 37 points kept the Lakers in the game. It was the play of the others that acutally "won" the game for them. Without Smush's 21 points, the Lakers either lose . . or barely win last night. But the guy knocked down just about every open shot he had. The question isn't about JJ. The question is when is Smoove going to have a 15 point - 10 rebound game? When is Chill going to have a 18 point - 7 rebound - 4 assist game? When are either of these guys going to step up and start knocking down shots when we need a basket the most? These are the guys that truly need to step up and help JJ and Al, and turn this thing around. JJ could've scored 40 last night, and we'd still probably would've lost. Just keep the hate coming if we start to win. Don't waver on your hate.

This is a good post. Although Spree definitely isn't worth more than a 3 mill/yr contract right now, to add him to the Hawks wouldn't hurt much. Spree's numbers were down last year, because Minnesota insisted on splitting his time with Sczcerbiak and Hassell. T-Wolves fans were mad at him last year, because they said that his defense had fallen off tremendously. Spreewell's numbers last year, are pretty much consistent with the numbers he put up during Minny's championship run 2 years ago. The difference is that Spree averaged over 38 minutes a game 2 years ago. And therin lies the problem with bringing in Spree. He's a "volume minutes" type player, much like JJ. But unlike JJ, who can be pretty consistent throughout the game, Spree gets his numbers in streaks. He's the type that can go 1 - 7 FG in 20 minutes, but go 5 - 5 FG in the next 8 minutes. And you never know when he'll get red hot and carry the offense. So if the Hawks chose to bring in Spree, they'd have to play him at least 30 - 35 minutes a game . . and start him . . in order to get the full use out of the guy. That means that one of these kids ( Salim, Childress, Smoove or Lue ) are going to see his minutes drop tremendously. Smoove would probably see more time at the 4 than out on the wing, if Spree was brought in. With Marvin in that same spot, you'll probably see the guy who is playing the best, get the most time behind Al. Adding Spree would give you another "legit" 2 on this team. That could enable Woodson to play JJ at the 3, if he has Lue or Salim at the 1. So we could go 1 - Lue 2 - Spree 3 - JJ 4 - Al 5 - ZaZa The are a lot of pros and cons that come with brining in a guy like Spree. The biggest "pros" is that Spree is a veteran player that can still create his own shot and has a scorer's mentality. The biggest "cons" are that he'll need major minutes to be effective, he'll take away valuable time away from our kids, and that he might need 2 - 3 weeks of playing time, just to get up to game shape. If the Hawks did bring in Spree, it'll be the type of PR move that is made to keep hope alive in the current fan base. In my opinion, I think the guy that is going to emerge to be the vocal and emotional leader of this team . . is Salim Stoudamire. I think he's the one guy that has the personality to take on that role. When the Hawks do start winning, don't be surprised if it's because Salim is playing very well in what ever role he's in.

LMAO. Diesel, you're usually dead on track with your analysis. But your take on Troy Hudson is absolutely ridiculous. Go to the ESPN.com T-Wolves board, and ask those fans about Hudson's defense. 82games.com ranked Hudson as the WORST defender in the league. All that guy does, is shoot . . and shoot some more. Hudson is no more than a faster and more inconsistent version of Tyronn Lue. That would be a horrible pickup for the Hawks.

Please don't judge this team by what you see in the first 2 road games of the year. It's ironic that the worst team in the league last year, has to start out with 3 road games and play 6 of their first 9 games on the road. I want to see how this team also plays on its home floor, before I start making sweeping decisions about the squad. It'll be interesting to see how this ATL v PORTLAND game turns out, seeing both teams got the hell beat out of them last night, and both are playing back to back games. Last night pretty much proves though, that we need all the talent we can get. AL may be our best player, and you can't have your best player out and expect to win on the road. It's a long season, so we have to let this thing play out before you give up hope on breaking that 30-win barrier. In the meantime, just stay cool, and let these players learn how to play with each other. And let's see if JJ can find his nitche in the offense to the point where he can be an effective scorer and mini-playmaker at the same time.

I definitely agree. Woodson should make a concerted effort to get JJ 15 - 20 shots/game. Same with Al. If those other guys get points, then that's all gravy. But our main two guys need to be shooting the rock. Eventually, Woodson is going to have to shorten this rotation. I think he's just seeing who is going to play hard night in and night out. After that, some of the guys who are getting minutes, won't be getting as many come late December.

Nicholas is the only person talking with some sense on this board. Are you people serious? You're ready to toss the Hawks under the bus and trade Childress AFTER ONE GAME? To me, that game last night was a complete fallacy. The Hawks got outscored 27 - 2 in a 7 minute stretch in the 3rd quarter last night. 27 - 2 Now are we supposed to believe that this team is THAT BAD? As far as Childress goes, he'll have to put up about 10 subpar nights for me to want to trade him. Hardly anybody shuts down J-Rich, so I knew Chill wouldn't. Just calm down people. Let this team play about 10 games or so, before making some extreme judgement.

nice job with that report

Marv will be a fan favorite by the start of the 2007 season.

No comments on Salim? For the amount of minutes he played, he had a great night. 13 pts 5-8 FG 3-4 3FG In 22 minutes. I wonder if he was the one that extended the lead in the 4th quarter?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore?gid=2005102801 INteresting box scores. 6 guys in double figures. Hawks shoot 58%