TheNorthCydeRises

OK Ex. I have a task for you . . if you decide to accept it. I listed 9 prospect big men who I thought were overpaid as centers or power forwards who also play center. What I want you to do, is list at least 9 defensive prospects or good offensive big men who were given big money contracts ( 7 million or more ), and have been worth every penny or close to it. Try to exclude star centers that were great right out the gate, like Shaq, Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard, or Chris Bosh. Those guys were good right out the gate. The guys I listed didn't set the world on fire in their first few years in the league, but still got big momey. So list the guys who weren't all that to begin with, but went on to develop into a good player and has been worth the money. Ben Wallace is obviously one. I'll even let you have Chris Kaman, since he'll be the next center to get a ridiculous contract. So all you have to do is name 7 more guys. And list what they make please. And before you try to explain anything away, just see if you can do it.

Of course I do Ex. But I also don't want to just throw away money at every marginal big man I see either. That's exactly the kind of stuff Isaiah is doing in NY. Except he does it with guards and swingmen. The NBA is a business. And when you run a business, you have to spend your money wisely. I know ZaZa isn't the answer at center. But maybe we can find a young center or even draft a raw one, and see if he develops into that defensive presence. There's no way in hell that I believe that Nene Hilario is the missing piece that enable us to win a title. He isn't Dikembe Mutumbo. Nowhere near close to that. I'll say this about ZaZa. IF he upped his shooting % to over 50%, then he could defintely be an asset to this team. Then you could find a defensive center that didn't have to provide offense, to play in those times when you need a stop. ZaZa's problem last year, was that he just couldn't finish around the rim. Which is also the reason why he grabbed so many offensive rebounds. He was grabbing his own. I think adding Nene to this team, if healthy, could've gotten us to being a borderline playoff team. But I don't see him developing into the type of center that will bring us a title. And if that's the case, shoot, maybe even a guy like Solomon Jones could be the 15 minute defensive center we need on this team, to get us to playoff level. Diop in Dallas basically fills that role. And he only averages 15 - 20 minutes a game.

As for the Hornets probably making a run at Nene, I think that's a pretty fair assessment to make. All you have to do is look at who they drafted, to figure out what they were trying to do. They sign both Hilton Armstrong and Cedric Simmons to bolster their frontline. If GMs around this league place value in Nene like Denver did, the Hornets would've definitely made a big time offer to get him. Which is probably why Denver decided to lock Nene up, before he was officially on the RFA market. But if he were with us, and the price to re-sign him is 9 - 10 million, that's a hell of a price to pay for just a defensive minded center that will give you limited offense. We've seen too many kids in this league that are one-dimensional big men, get ridiculous contracts. Then the team whines and complains about how much money they make, how little production they're actually getting, and how much their contract is limiting them from improving the team. Here are some big men who are currently "stealing money" in this league: - Theo Ratliff ( 11 mill + ) - Erick Dampier ( 8.6 mill ) - Adonyl Foyle ( 8 mill + with another 18 million owed to him ) - Kwame Brown ( 8 mill + ) - Tyson Chandler ( 9 mill + ) - Eddy Curry ( 8 mill + . . although Eddy can at least be a viable offensive option. Eddy at least has a chance to be worth his price tag ) - Samuel Dalembert ( 8 mill + . . good Lord, and we were supposedly hot and heavy after this kid last summer. Good thing he stayed in Philly ) - Raef LaFrentz ( almost 11 mill . . lol, that's incredible ) - Rasho Nesterovic ( 7 million + . . for a guy that has only had one year as good as ZaZa's last year ) And the one thing you should notice about this list, is that every one of these teams, with the exception of Philly and the Knicks, have ALL traded these guys after a few years of signing the big money contract. And of these guys, only Curry looks to be the guy who could be anywhere near worth the money. Damn . . the more I think about it, the more I'm glad that BK didn't pull the trigger on a Nene deal. If it was going to cost us over 7 million to re-sign the guy, then the risk is probably not worth it. Let Denver figure out that their 10 million a year center, is probably worth only 6 million.

It might, depending on what player is out there. Just like the "what if" speculations about who would offer Nene what, if the Hawks had him . . the same goes for Indy's pick next year. It's all speculation because we don't fully know what Nene will be like after his injury. And we don't know what player will be available with Indy's pick in the mid-round of 2007 . . or in 2008. Personally, I think we may not have a draft pick at all next year, because I have no confidence in that Indy team making the playoffs. When it's all said and done, they may be just as good as we are, or a notch below.

LOL . . . hilarious thread. Save this for December, when everyone can see how Nene is playing. Personally, I would've done the Nene/Watson for Al deal . . if it was legit. With all of the trade rumors going around the past 8 months about Harrington, it's hard to distinguish between fact and fiction. Having said that, I would've had a hard time paying Nene anything over 7 million per year, seeing that he was still hurt at the time. And while KB's arguments float all over the place, he does make a good point about Nene. His 10 ppg and 6 - 7 rebounds isn't necessarily earth shattering. And while he is a good defender, he's not exactly one of the top 5 defensive big men in the league. He may not even be in the top 10. So the question goes back to this? Do we bring on a bad contract for a player that may or may not help us? If healthy, I Nene would help us this year, and we probably don't have any need for Lorenzen Wright. LOL . . but I still believe that we would've went after Shelden, just to make the interior that much stronger. But if he's still gimpy and has lost a 1/2 step, a player like that could cripple us financially for years to come. He'd become the new Theo Ratliff.

Bottom line is that the players we need, their own team needs them as well, making the price to get them extremely high.

Good post Ex . . . but it kind of backs up what I've been saying. Nene is obviously a guy that Denver had in its future plans. Maybe BK already knew what Nene's asking price would be, and was not even going to touch him. I gotta give him the benefit of the doubt in knowing information that we "hardcore" fans don't know. Denver was willing to pay whatever to keep Nene a Nugget. I would've never dreamed that a guy coming off of ACL surgery and had missed almost an entire year, would get a 6 year - 60 million dollar deal. It's pretty obvious now that anything less than that wouldn't have made Nene a Hawk. So what do we do? Toss max money at him? Even if we'd offered up Harrington in some sort of sign and trade, they already have Melo at the SF. To get Nene, we'd probably have to give up Smoove plus other players/picks/Harrington, just because of his weakside defensive prowess. As far as Prz goes, I definitely like his game. But here's another situation in which the team he's already on, would probably go out of their way to keep him. They probably should've kept him when they first got him, but that's over and done with now. Those two players would definitely help us on the inside. But those are two players that we probably couldn't make a decent deal with to get.

LOL . . I went to college with Ed Gray. LOL @ those poor Tennessee teams back in the day. We had no choice but to be hardcore Lady Vol fans, because the men's team was so sorry. I knew that Ed wouldn't work out with the Hawks. His shot was erratic in college, so it definitely wasn't going to fall consistently in the pros.

OK . . I'm clear on your position now. But I ask again . . who are these players ( centers or power forwards ) that we didn't go after?

I had written another "novel" of a post disputing Walter, but I guess that one got erased. Oh well.

Quote: Quote: There's no ONE person that we can reasonably obtain, that will make us better. Thats because they are taken. LOL . . they're taken and they were never reasonably available. As a Cincinnati Bengals fan, I know all to well how this plays out, when people think you're a horrible team and a horrible franchise. You're not going to get those impact players that you really need to get you to that next level. So you have to develop the talent you have now, and hope the lesser type free agents you bring in can collectively help the team. That's how the Bengals went from a 2 - 14 team 4 years ago, to a playoff contender now. They stuck with their young talent and PLAYED them. And they brought in veterans who weren't necessarily star players, but were good enough to make the overall product better. Guys like Chad Johnson, Rudi Johnson, and T.J. Houshmanzedah weren't starters right out of the gate. But over time, management gave them a fair shot to win starting spots. And all 3 took full advantage of them. Then they bring in 2nd/3rd tier free agents like a Tory James ( Raiders ), a John Thorton ( Titans ) and a Deltha O'Neal ( Broncos ) to help the team futher. And in the meantime, they cut their losses with guys like Corey Dillon ( the "star" of the franchise ) and Peter Warrick. Now back to the Hawks . . A guy like Ben Wallace was never going to come here. Not when the alternative was to go to Chicago. The only way a Mike James comes here is if we grossly overpay for him. The same goes for Sam Cassell. We didn't have a legit shot to get any of those guys. That's why you bring in a Speedy Claxton. That's why you bring in a Lorenzen Wright. And that's why you let Harrington go, so that the kids we do have now, can develop further. If a guy like Josh Smith or Josh Childress doesn't show improvement from year 2 to year 3 even when they get major minutes, then we may want to rethink about keeping those guys. But they at least deserve a shot to show everybody that they can become very good starting players/6th man types in this league

LOL @ all of these magic bullet theories. Now the answer to our problems was Bargnani? LOL . . come on now. It's a well known fact that althougn Bargnani has the height to play center, he'd be more of a combination of a young Dirk Nowitski ( when he wasn't averaging 20 ppg ) and a Nenad Kristic ( who isn't a better defender than ZaZa by the way . . . just to comment on those top 4 teams in the east that don't necessarily have a good defensive center ) Everyone knows what we need. The problem is that everybody's solution is a moot point because the type of IMPACT players we need at those positions just aren't out there. LOL @ trading for Bargnani. Who do we trade? Because you're not going to get away with trading Josh Childress for him. And the Raptors probably wouldn't want to take on Al's salary to play him there, seeing how they destroyed him in the post last year whenever we played the Raptors. Everybody has these great ideas, but they don't necessarily make us a better team. There's no ONE person that we can reasonably obtain, that will make us better. So it's important to bring in a COLLECTION of guys who, if added to the current team, can make us better. I said it two weeks ago . . there's no sense in making a trade to bring in players, just for the sake of doing something. I personally wouldn't have had any problem with letting Al walk for absolutely nothing. To get a 1st round pick out of this, is just an added bonus. I'll say this until the season starts . . Do Hawks fans truly trust the kids? If not, we need to start trading them right now. If so, get behind them UNCONDITIONALLY and see exactly what they can do.

And as I told Walter . . where are we going to get this center that can play defense? Most of the centers in this league are crap. That was part of the reason for taking Shelden in the first place . . to play him some at the 5, and see if he can slow down the lay-up drill people ran against us.

And Walter . . we added the best defensive player in college to our squad. Plus we added another athletic shot blocker with our 2nd round pick. Plus we obtained a decent veteran PG. Plus we obtained a PF/C who knows how to play the game. But I forgot . . what we've done is CRAP, compared to everybody else. LOL @ that. Portland sold their entire team, and is doing the EXACT SAME THING that BK did with the Hawks back in 2003 - 04. But when he did it, it was a DUMB MOVE by us. LOL . . and where is that "dominant center"? Aldridge? You mean the same guy that Shelden MAN-HANDLED when Duke ran right over Texas last season. Even Shelden called him "soft". And look at Aldridge now? He's already hurt. See, this is what I'm talking about. Everybody wants to criticize every move we make, but don't have a viable alternative that would make this team overall a better one. Add a guard in the draft, we lose out on a banger inside. Add a big man, and at least if he pans out, we already have competent guards in place here. As far as Shelden "spelling" guys, that's where you and I differ about his role. Just because you're the #5 pick in the draft, doesn't mean you're destined to become a star player. There are plenty of top 10 lottery picks throughout this league that start out as bench players. Eventually, they may develop into a starter, or a capable 6th man. But I forget, the "plan" was to play Roy or Foye at the point. Or keep JJ at the point. Then, when the lightning quick PGs around the league expose Roy and Foye on the defensive end, everybody would be complaining, because they're really 2-guards instead of PGs. That's why people ripped us for JJ playing the point last year.

Quote: Quote: It's time for Hawks FANS to choose a side and stick with it. So we can't agree with some moves and disagree with others? We have to be on one side or the other? So in order to be Hawks fans we have to be like KB? Sounds like you have appointed yourself as the Hawksquawk thought police. If you don't like what I say then go ahead and write me a ticket. I'll see you in court. LOL @ Ex. We can all agree or disagree with the different moves that "supposedly" have improved our team. But you have to remember that for every action, there is also a reaction. But unlike real physics, that reaction isn't necessarily an equal one in the NBA. If you bring in a guy like a Troy Murphy or a Chris Mihm, you limit someone else that we already have here that may develop into a better player than those guys. Maybe ZaZa can develop to be better than those guys. Look at the jump he made last year, when he actually got quality minutes. It's definitely not out of the question that he can be better than Mihm. That was the one of the points for letting Al go in the first place . . to make room for a more talented and skilled guy like Marvin Williams or Josh Smith to see if they can be on Al's level or beyond. It's almost the same situation Al was in his first years in Indiana. Yes, he got the playing time, but it was always on a limited basis. The same goes for Johnathan Bender. The Pacers had better players in front of those guys, so it hindered their development into "star" players. When Al got his minutes here, he blossomed into a quality starter. At some point, we have to give Marvin and Smoove the same opportunity, without bringing in a ton of guys to "improve" the team . . if they even do it at all. And if it means that our ascent to the playoffs is delayed one year, then so be it. As for the people still crying about the Chris Paul vs Marvin Williams issue . . . get over it already. Nothing we say or do is going to change the fact that Marvin is here and Chris is there. It's like beating yourself up for not talking to a woman that you liked, but you never had the courage to approach her . . or you were looking at her, and other women at the same time. So we might as well give Marvin the same shot Chris had in NOK, and see what he can truly do. Marvin hasn't even had a chance to prove his critics wrong, yet, people criticize the Hawks unrelentlessly for not taking Paul. That's BS in my opinion. As a bench player, Marvin was actually pretty good last year. The same goes for Shelden Williams. Let's see what Shelden can do in a REAL NBA game, before we start calling him a bust. Most of the "fans" on this board rotinely say that either Smoove or Marvin will become stars. Well, you can't become a "star" if you don't get "star minutes". And if we keep bringing so-called quality guys in, they can't get those "star minutes". At some point, we have to just roll with what we got, be content with it, and see what happens. All of the whining and crying about what we "should have done", is moot at this point. See what the kids can do this year. If they can get it done, we're set for the future. If not, then we have guys that we can trade to bring in quality players.

Quote: Quote: ...in this league, and even from IND, that wouldn't have helped this team next year and beyond... certainly, cap space presents some trade flexibility, but it takes space + current assets to = talent upgrade, vis-a-vis, playoff opportunity. I'm not mad, but I *am* very disappointed. There is not one acquisition this off-season that stands out as a grade-A move for a proven asset. Claxton isn't. SWilliams isn't. And the draft pick we're getting, won't even be a person for awhile... and as-if this team needs to get any younger? I've stood by BK, and continue to trust his judgment more than maybe I ought. But the empirical evidence suggests that any progress this team makes in 06-07 is going to come almost completely from the ability of JJ, Smoove, and Marvelous to take their games to the next level... and certainly, we're all rooting for that to happen. But I guess I just want BK to be "man enough" to admit that there *are* players he could have acquired that are *not* simply "bad contracts," and further to admit that *either* he miscalculated the market or that he has had parameters placed upon his work such that he wasn't able to do what he would have liked to have done. Absolutely the same way I feel. We really needed a veteran "dirty work" blue collar kind of guy. As well, some extra leadership on the team would have been nice as well. Not gonna quit being a fan of the Hawks, just disappointing after all the wait until the offseason when we trade Al talk. GO HAWKS!!! The ONLY guy out there left in free agency like that . . is BONZI WELLS. But what do we do if we bring Bonzi in? He's better than Smoove and Chill and Marvin. So bringing him off the bench may cause major problems. But if you start him, you limit the development of Smoove, Marvin, and Chill even more. Lineup with Bonzi: PG - Speedy G - Bonzi G/F - JJ F - Marvin or Smoove C - ZaZa Everybody thinks they have a "magic bullet" to our solution here. We probably need to do just like Chicago did the past 2 years, and just TRUST THE KIDS. THEN . . if we become a playoff team, we'll have tradeable assets to improve the squad. Until then, give the kids a chance to either become big time players . . mediocre players . . or guys who will always be bench/role players. But we won't know if we keep bringing people in.

Quote: ...and like many have been for too long. In addition to there being no "grade A" moves this offseason there were some god awful ones. The two that come to mind are the SW pick over Roy, Foye, or even Gay at 5 and the Indy PUNT rebuilding deal. Every single move was directed towards the mediocrity and all but the Indy pick for the now. We needed a young talent at the center position to grow with the team and we needed legit, quality help. We had Al, a redundand Childress or even JS or MW, to trade, massive cap space, a #5 pick and we essentially tread water. If I'm a young hawk I can't wait to get off this team. There's too little PT or opportunity at my prefered position, too many loses, and no direction towards title contention. Anyhow, just shameful to go through this offseason and not improve our title contention potential. None of these moves put us any closer to a title. Not one. Just shameful. W LOL @ Walter. Always the pessimist. The ONLY grade "A" move made by ANY TEAM this summer, was made by the Bulls when they acquired Ben Wallace and got rid of Tyson Chandler's contract to bring in PJ Brown. Other than that, there's not a single team in the league that made some "great move" in the offseason. And people are still complaining about the Shelden pick at #5? Please. Adding Roy or Foye to this team would've been counterproductive. People are so certain that Roy or Foye can play the point. But what if they can't? What do we do then? Do we STILL go out and get Speedy, causing a backlog of guards on this team? As has been said on this board countless numbers of times . . picking Foye or Roy would NOT HAVE HELPED THE INTERIOR DEFENSE OF THIS TEAM. And that is our main problem. Not the overall talent on this team. And if we didn't have a chance to snag Ben Wallace, who in the heck is going to even spell guys like ZaZa, Marvin, and Smoove when they play the 4? Oh but of course, we could've traded down, got Shelden, and picked up some other guard who isn't even as talented as Tyronn Lue. I love how all of the Hawks critics have a problem with just about every move we've made in the past 3 years, but also say that our team has great young talent. If that's the case, we can't be messing up as bad as people seem. You can't blast us one minute, then praise us the next for our talent. People talking out of both sides of their mouths need to stop. LOL @ the notion that any of these young guys can get more PT somewhere else? Like where? Where is Josh Childress going to get 30 minutes a game, even coming off the bench? Where is Smoove going to get 31 minutes of PT ( probably upwards of 35 minutes a game this year )? And NONE of those guys are going to get a chance to be a star player anywhere else but HERE. Right here is their best shot at becoming a player that can put up major numbers. It's time for Hawks FANS to choose a side and stick with it. If you don't think this team is going in the right direction, then stay over there >>>>>>>>>>>> If you think this team is going in the right direction, come here But DON'T WAFFLE BACK AND FORTH, according to what our record is, or what moves we should/shouldn't have made. Hindsight makes everybody look like a genius. Even if we'd made all of the moves that people said that we should've made, we'd STILL have some holes on this team that needed to be filled. Damned if you do . . damned if you don't.

Good points.

Quote: The Hawks may have more potential then Indiana but the Hawks are still very young and that historically does not bode well for a teams playoff chances. That's true. But I truly believe that this team is poised to make a jump much like the 2004 Bulls did. Offensively, I don't see us losing a step with us losing Al. It's going to give other players a chance to step up and make bigger contributions. It looks like Marvin will be up to the task. Smith will at least try to fill that scoring void. Childress ( if he stays aggressive ) will be a solid contributor and could possibly be our 3rd leading scorer. Even a guy like Salim, who will probably have the same role as last year as the hired gun, should also be an improved player. Add that with JJ, and this team is on par with the Pacers. Last year, we were a much better offensive squad than them. Unless Harrington is going to come in, and shoot 48% next year, they won't be much better than a .500 team. I say 33 - 38 wins. The major questionmark in my mind for us, is if this team is better defensively. If we lower the ppg given up to around 97, we can make that jump to be a playoff team. We'll just have to see how well defensively guys like Marvin, Smoove, and even Shelden are against the starters in this league.

That team played some of its best ball with O'Neal and/or Tinsley out. Indy fans themselves have been questioning whether O'Neal can be the undisputed leader of the team. That role used to be Artest's. Indy was the ONLY PLAYOFF TEAM last year, to have a losing record vs the Eastern Conference. That team, ironically, was 20 - 12 vs teams over .500. So ask yourself this. Do you honestly think that the Pacers can play that well against the good teams again? When you look at the Hawks roster, and the Pacers roster, there's NO WAY IN HELL I'd trade all that we have, to get all that they have. Give me our team any day of the week over theirs.

Personally, I think the Pacers are no better than what we are right now. They start out the season 10 - 7 with Artest. Then they win 5 of their next 6 games when the Pacers decide to basically "deactivate" him. Mid-late December they have a 15 - 8 record. They go on to post a 26 - 33 record the rest of the year . . and posted a 24 - 28 record against the Eastern conference. Adding Harrington and "Brotha" Marquis Daniels, but losing Peja, Fred Jones, and Anthony Johnson . . is not an upgrade to that team IMO. They're banking on Granger making a huge contribution to that team next year. If he doesn't, the Pacers are in serious trouble.

Here's what athletic "cheating" is in a nutshell: If you had a chance to date the woman of your dreams for a year . . but at the end of that year . . not only would you lose the girl, but you would have to give up something that you love ( your car, sports, a bad habit that makes you feel good, etc ) . . would you do it? All of these athletes that cheat, are basically saying that they're willing to take on the euphoric feeling they'd have in the short term, even if it means being miserable in the long run.

24/5/5 would be nice. I think he'll be more like 22/4/6 . . with a higher shooting percentage across the board. We can play a small backcourt during times in which the starters from the other team are out of the game. We did that last year with Lue and Salim in the game together at times. Of course, they couldn't defend anybody, but teams had problems controlling them on the offensive end as well. JJ last year deferred a lot to Harrington down the stretch. That shouldn't happen this year. But I don't want him to feel like he has to take every shot down the stretch and force some bad shots either. He made a lot of good plays at the end of games, in which he penetrated into the lane, and kicked it out to a wide open guy. The one good thing about this team, is that we have a lot of guys who feel comfortable with taking a big shot. JJ, Chill, Smoove, Salim, and Lue have no problem taking a big shot. You'll probably see Marvin develop that mentality as well.

LOL @ this thread. I have a good idea of who BBallPrincess is. And it would explain A LOT of why she knows things that the average "hardcore" Hawks fan doesn't. As they used to say back in the 90s. "Don't hate the playa . . hate the game."

LOL @ what's MY plan. That's exactly the point I'm trying to make. (1) it's not my JOB to negotiate potential trades for Al, so what I post on a message board is irrelevant. . . but if you want my opinion, here it is: (2) we're better off KEEPING Harrington for one year, then try to deal him later, than to do some of these deals that people have proposed. But if we do that, we suppress guys like Marvin and Smoove even more. But who knows? Maybe they're ready. Maybe they're not quite. But before we trade Harrington for some awful contract in Murphy . . or some Laker scrubs . . or a bunch of expiring contract players that aren't going to see the floor anyway . . I'd just rather keep Al, trade him for picks, or let him walk altogether. People act like it's the end of the world if we don't get something for Harrington. IF we get something, that's great. IF we don't, then I have the utmost confidence that JJ, Smoove, Mavin, and Chill can get it done THIS SEASON. Either way, I like the way this team is built for next season, even if we do need improvement in other areas. And everybody knows that it's next offseason where you may see some big time talents come available. I think this franchise has already made its commitment to JJ, Smoove, Marvin and possibly Childress. The problem is, the fans haven't made the same commitment. Let's see if these guys can develop into the things that most people on this board believe they can, before bringing in guys who will take playing time away from them, or take their starting spot altogether. People on this board have stated in the past that this team would be better off without Harrington. I say, put your money where your mouth is, and support the kids.