StonedDogs

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Ja is clearly the better rebounder.  I'll also stipulate that Ja has been better at than Trae on defense where is one of Memphis' weakest defenders so the edge is fairly slim.

Scoring:

2020-21 Ja 19.1 ppg on .537% TS% vs Trae 25.3 ppg on .589% TS%

2021-22 Ja 27.4 ppg on .575% TS% vs Trae 28.4 ppg on .603% TS%

 

Passing

2020-21 Ja 7.4 appg on  33.5% AST% vs Trae 9.4 apg on 45.5% AST%

2021-22 Ja 6.7 apg on 34.1% AST% vs Trae 9.7 apg on 46.7% AST%

 

Ball Protection - Ratio AST% to TO%

2020-21 Ja 2.18 vs Trae 2.80

2021-22 Ja 2.70 vs Trae 3.22

 

I think we can all agree that Ja has started this season hotter than Trae but his scoring this season is still inferior to what Trae has done the last 3 years (.570% TS% this season for Ja vs Trae .595%, .589%, .603% TS%).

Not a fair comparison when it comes to scoring. Ja can avg 30. He has a different coach and different cast. In his system he doesn't need to avg Trae numbers nor put up Trae shot attempt numbers. Memphis has JJJ, Bane, B Clarke, Tyus...They have a good squad where everyone knows their roles

4 hours ago, Diesel said:

This is weak sauce Stonedogs.   You said... "Luka is more skilled. He played overseas pro. Trae had one year of college. Competition is not even close"   Excuse me for reading but your mention of the type of competition they faced before becoming pros is a factor that you believe makes him more skilled than Trae.

So I simply challenged the validity of that statement by offering you examples.    If it were true then anybody who had a similar background as Luka should have come to the NBA more skilled than persons who only had one year of college.     This is why the Darko example is so damning to your fragile assertion. 

• Like Luka, Darko played as a pro before coming to the NBA. 
• Like Luka, Darko won championships before coming to the NBA. 
• Like Luka, Darko starting playing with pros at an early ages (he started playing at 14)
• Like Luka Darko was compared against players who only played 1 year of college. 

On that last point, Darko was drafted ahead of Carmelo Anthony.  Anthony played 1 year at Syracuse, however, many people at the time felt that Darko's background (similar to Luka) made him a better pick than Melo. 

What becomes overwhelming obvious is that Background doesn't mean much of anything.   BTW, the era is meaningless in this argument, it's just a deflection that you wanted to bring in....

 

Finally, let's get to the final point (and you will probably want to dwell here because over there is a lost argument).   You say that Luka is more skilled than Trae.   I have to challenge that too.  Last year when all the games had been played, Trae had more assists, more points, and a better efficiency than Luka.  It was slight but it was better. Here's the thing..  Luka is 6'7" 230 lbs.  Trae is 6'1", 162 lbs...  Trae just led the league in points and assists at 6'1" 162 lbs...  Somebody his size is not even supposed to be in the league.   Do you know how Dominant a player Trae would be if he were 6'7" 230 lbs??  Consider his game...   He doesn't play like Spud Webb or Mugsy.. who were guys his size.  His skillset is off the damn chart.   Luka has skills but if Luka were 6'1" 162, he would be nothing.   It sounds nice to say that he's more skilled than Trae but Trae probably has three times the skill of Luka because he has to make up for the lack of size.   And even with that... More points, More assists and better efficiency (Based on Last years stats). 

Yeah.. like I said, Weak sauce.

BTW, when I said the most disrespect I could muster... I wasn't talking about disrespect towards you... I don't even know you.   I was talking about disrespect towards that weak position that you took.  I can't respect it. 

 

 

I dont know why you keep using a player 20 years ago. Luka was every bit of the hype. He was overseas Lebron James. He lived up to his hype. 

Luka is not 160lbs and 6'1" so no need for the "but but but" hypothetical. 

He's 6'7", can shake and bake just like Trae, can shoot better than Trae. Can pass just like Trae, has a floater too, can post up, something Trae cannot do, Luka has more creativity around the rim. 

Both of their shot selection could be better, but Luka skillset is better overall. Yes, playing overseas atcthe age of 15 and 16 pro TODAY is extremely beneficial than playing in Nike Summits, AAU games and high school games. 

Trae is a more talented Steve Nash bud. Nothing wrong with that, but having him as your leading piece to build around? No. You have to equip with with a Durant and top 3 center to talk rings. IMO 

I dont even care for Luka but I'd build around him, Ja, SGA, Garland. I can guarantee coach Bud didn't want to rebuild around Trae. Dont give me that whole he didn't want to rebuild. No, he didn't want that situation. Trae will have a revolving door of coaches and interims 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

My last reply I meant with all the disrespect I could muster... 

So the competition before they became a pro matters... A lot... by your account.

Well Let's see...

Is Luka More skilled than Jordan?  Jordan played in that College atmosphere that Trae came from...

Oh.... 

How about Lebron or Kobe?  Neither of them went to college.   They came right out of High school...

The basis of your argument is silly.. to say the least.  The level of competition you faced before going pro is really meaningless.

Oh... you roll your eyes at me and still doubt and attack my position.  Well let me help you..  Luka isn't the only player to play overseas pro before being drafted... I can get you a whole list but this one here should help you the most...

Darko.

Darko had so much potential that Marc Stein asked NBA executives whether he should be drafted over LeBron James. No one said yes, but they did agree that Darko was good enough to be No. 2:

yeah... GTFOH...

With all the disrespect you could muster? Ok sport, its just online with some guys you don't know, calm down. Its a gif.  Probably would have felt disrespected if the gif were actually you. So now lets get to your points...

1. Jordan played three years of college compared to Trae one. Cant really compare college of the 80s to now. Back then the college players were well seasoned, fundamentally sound. These days its AAU ball, youtube highlights, blue checks and likeable factor. Microwave players. Jordan of the 80s could be a one and done today. Luka could have dominated in college and one and done. Trae never played in a college atmosphere like Jordan. There was nothing like Duke vs N Carolina. Trae never played in a college title game and never won one with a game winning shot on the biggest stage.

Luka has won championships. Did Trae win a high school championship? A bunch of 6 footers as comp? 

2. Is Luka more skilled than Jordan? Luka has been pro since he was 16. Is he better than Jordan? No one is. Is he better than Kobe? Kobe is Jordan 2.0. Is he better than Bron? Bron is Magic on steroids. The two exceptions. Generational talents. Is Luka more skilled than Trae yes he is. 16 against pros. Thats NBA players, college players and the same intl team that took redeem team down to wire. And played great against team usa in 2012. Trae will not be selected for team USA. Why do you think? 

3. Why are you using Darko as your argument? Why are you comparing anyone to Lebron James? 20 yrs ago man. Lets try to stick with whats happening today. You are really triggered over there about Trae. Maybe he will get on a single knee and get you a championship ring one day.

9 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Huh?

How about : Trae got to the ECF to lose to champs 

I mean if you're handing out credit for losing let's be complete.  And Ja won 1 game and lost 2 against the champs.  Grizz w/o Ja won 1 game and lost 2 also.   Wow he really gave them all they could handle?

Come on guys.  Are Ja and Luka better than Trae?  Maybe.  Luka probably is.  Does that mean they have or will win more and have a better career.  No. 

Yes Ja played the hell out the games he played. No one is taking the ECF away from Trae. 

And All around game Ja is better than Trae. All around game. Luka is more skilled. He played overseas pro. Trae had one year of college. Competition is not even close

5 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Trae also had key pieces of his team hurt, including the big man in the middle.

Trae is so great, Miami deployed their version of the Jordan Rules against him. They sent double, sometimes triple teams at that dude.  I watch Ja on a nightly basis, and Ja isn't seeing the defenses that Trae is.

Luka and Ja isn't seeing guys blitz them with triple teams, trying to stop him.  Teams actually want Luka to shoot  the ball, because if anybody believes in his "hero ball" the most, it's Luka.  As for Ja, teams are terrified of his athleticism, so they let him take outside shots as well.

With Trae, teams fear the pick and roll AND the deep 3.

And don't talk about Luka until he wins a game in the WC Finals.  Ja too, for that manner.  The Hawks were a referee getting in Trae's way away from reaching the NBA Finals, or at the very least pushing the Bucks to a game 7.

You so-called Hawks fans can keep sleeping on Trae if you want, thinking someone else is greater.  Tell them to lead their teams within the brink of reaching the NBA Finals.

At this point I think you're trolling for Trae. You gotta let that ECF run go. Hawks surprised everyone that year. Huerter also won a key game. The league has caught up to his game now. Maybe its bad coaching. Ja and Luka for one are in a tougher conference so lets get that out of the way. Hawks and Warriors are both #8 seeds. Doesn't mean Hawks and Warriros are equal. 

In the playoffs Ja saw all the defenders thrown at him. You simply cannot contain him. 

Luka as well, you simply cannot contain him. 

Ja and Luka has a few more tricks up their sleeve than Trae and they're doing it in the tougher West. 

You can't say "but but but Luka hasn't won a WC game." Lol he carried his team there against our generations best team over the past few years. Against 3 HOFers. 

Lol Miami deployed their version of Jordan rules against Trae? Jordan broke those rules buddy and won 6 titles. 6 and 0 in finals. If Miami had done to Jordan what they did to Trae, Jordan comes back the next year bigger, better, stronger. 20 games in and Trae looks the same. 

No teams do not want Luka to shoot because he CAN shoot. They guard him and he just pulls up over his defenders. And teams respect Ja athleticism so they try to pick their poison. He can hit the three, pass, dunk, and has a ridiculous layup package. Trae is good at two of those. 

He just lacks the attributes others currently have. Nothing wrong with that. 

Trae can pass, break you down off dribble, mid range, and shoot the three.

Ja can dunk on 7footers, break you down off dribble, pass, mid range, and shoot the three

Luka can dunk, post, break you down off dribble, pass, mid range, and shoot the three. 

Ja gave the champions all that they could handle

Luka got his team to WCF to lose to champs

Trae got shut down by #2 team in the East in 1st round 4-1

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

No such thing as great when they barely score 100 points. The offense sucks 

Cmon man cut them a little slack. Both teams fought hard tonight. Good game

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Trae needs a guard who is a PDS guard. Bogi is one. Kevin was one but sadly, defense will only be average at best with that tandem and that's with Gobert and Okongwu. On average, you will have the WOAT defense. Hopefully AJ develops and fills that role. 

Its almost sad we have to build to Trae strengths. 

MF cant play defense its 5 on 4

We have to hope for someone to step up and bail him. 

He's about to be on his 3rd coach.

Hard to imagine We're gonna win a title. We've seen the team who has won

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

No team have 2 dynamic PGs like we have either.  Both guys were red hot last night.

The more I read these comments, the more I think all of this is about getting AJ the ball so that we can celebrate him having a great shooting game.  The fact that he got no more touches, despite having complete control of the game for 3 quarters, has irritated everyone.

I honestly don't think most people cared if Hunter or Collins or anyone else on the team getting more shots.  They just wanted AJ to get more shots.

 

I honestly think Collins and Hunter would thrive under a new system. Almost want them to be traded so fans will see they aren't the sole problem. Ya gotta run plays for these guys. 

I just think the Hawks would be a much more exciting team with ball movement and balance. They have the speed and quickness. NBA fans around the country are on notice now. Trae is "lil fella", a meme, a wannabe villain and DJM is now considered a fake tough guy. 

6 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

This is why I almost don’t wanna come back here when we lose. People say some outlandish stuff. 
 

JC is playing like crap overall and Hunter is inconsistent. That’s why we are up and down right now but we need to chill like you said. 
 

People think Trae is the problem? Lol. If Trae didn’t do what he did we would lost by 30! 

Trae is a big part of the problem. Coaching will be a revolving door with him. He has an ego issue. Its so obvious he wants his numbers. He wants his all star voting. He wants to be the main event. Its just obvious at this point. This team needs a coach to come in and make him an NBA point guard. 

You say without Trae they lose by 30? I'll say with Ja they win by 30. Ja just understands the game better. Ja would see that AJ was hot. Ja would get JJJ involved. Or Bane involved. He would see Brooks has the hot hand. 

Team needs a coach to coach the PG, draw up plays and tire opponents defense out. This whole coaching staff and culture needs to go. Im tired of interim and assistant coaches. Team needs a head coach with good playoff success to come in with his own staff to change the culture. 

There's just no reason why both PGs should have that many shot attempts. No team is doing that

15 minutes ago, terrell said:

Keep going...

HC

PG

GM

Shouldn't hear any more of let him play his game, he needs the ball, give him some time to settle in.

Shouldn't hear any more, but he took us to the ECF. 

He's still your GM, I dont care what label Fields has. 

Hawks have three big problems personnel wise...

3 hours ago, Wretch said:

So, I don't like pointing fingers.  Everyone at this level is extremely talented, it's just a matter of is that talent fitting together and is it being used optimally.  Do we want to be good or do we want to be great?  Greatness is difficult to achieve, but if that's what we're shooting for, then we have to trim the fat.  We need to examine, without bias, sub-optimal aspects of this squad.

The offense is one.  There's nothing "wrong" per se.  We're winning.  Sure we got to the ECF's playing this way, but the league adjusted and sent us back to the drawing board.  Our counter was to bring in DJM.  He's supposed to take the pressure off of Trae, but all that's happening is Trae standing around on the weak side.  Sure the pressure is off of Trae -  he's watching Dejounte take his turn.  It's exactly the same when Trae runs the point. 

This "attack the paint" offense without ball movement means the defense can just drop and guard the penetration.  It'll work as long as we're hitting cutters, lobs, floaters, and midrange jumpers.  I have my doubts about it being effective vs. playoff basketball.  If we're hitting from the perimeter, it's a different story - but still no different than our run to the ECF's and regardless, the ball HAS TO move for CNS.

There's other things that I think are sub-optimal, but I'm still waiting a few more games before I put my concreate opinions out there.  I can speak on Trae's shot selection though.  If he's wide open or has good separation from the defender at +30ft, that's actually a good shot for him.  Pounding the ball, dancing with the defender trying to create space and shooting that same shot with a hand in his face is a wasted possession.  It would be INFINITELY better for him to use his gravity to pull the defense with him and pass to an open shooter.  Even if he puts up a floater or goes glass and misses, it's still better shot but it also opens up 2nd chance opportunities.  Those long shots he misses also create long rebounds which favor the defense.

Sounds perfect to me. I couldn't have written that any better. 

18 hours ago, Wretch said:

I've been watching the clips after each game.  Like, go look at some pick and pop basketball or watch a few minutes of Golden State and how they move.  I know, I know...that's a beautiful offense, with legendary shooters, and a coach who played/studied under the triangle offense.  I get it, but we don't do a lot of that.  Go look at ball/player movement videos, PNP break downs, and then go watch clips of our offense:

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022200263&PlayerID=0&RangeType=0&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Regular Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612737&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

That's us every game.  It's all.....dribble, one shot.  One pass, one shot.  Dribble, dribble, dribble, shot.  We're not forcing the defense to react.  So little to no catch and shoot, and a lot of ISO into traffic.  Which only Trae and DJM are reliable at, so when they're on we're ok...when they struggle with the zone, we're not. 

Aside from guys knocking down the open shots they do get from the occasional catch and shoot, we've got to move the ball.  Otherwise, we're just playing YMCA ball, taking turns attacking the basket.

So with all of that said and a beautiful breakdown by the way? Who is the problem? 

On 11/23/2022 at 3:01 PM, marco102 said:

Generally everyone does, but list out the strikeouts? 

John Collins - Hit

Trae Young - Hit

Kevin Huerter - Hit

Omari - bust

DeAndre Hunter - remains to be seen, but def not a bust.

Cam Reddish - Not a hit

OO - Hit IMO

Jalen Johnson - remains to be seen

AJ Griffin - Hit so far.

 

Looks like Travis has more hits than busts.

 

JC trade block every year

Trae/Luka, I mean you couldn't miss. It was an underhanded toss

Heurter is gone

Spellman gone

Bruno gone

Cooper gone

Mays gone

Cam gone

Pierce gone

Hunter to be seen 

OO doesn't play enough 

Jalen to be seen

Griffin is a hit

Schlenk is given a generous 30% from the field. 

Durant knows basketball more than Schlenk and Nate. 

Schlenk has more strikeouts than hits 

11 hours ago, nathan2331 said:

The Cavs guards work way harder off the ball to create opportunities for themselves. Our offense is too stagnant in comparison. Trae & Murray do not need to be always be initiating our offense. We can get them easier looks by involving other players even if it comes at the cost at more turnovers. We improvise way too much because we make ourselves easy to defend.

Bingo. But I wouldn't put it on the players the Hawks run three plays it seems. 

5 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Yup agreed. We are all just trying to find a way for our Hawks to maximize what we have going on. I think SOME (not naming names) are getting butt hurt over this. They need to think with their brains and not their heart ‘s.

You know who you are, if the players know it’s a business the you should as a fan. 
 

Stop being that JC fanboy and start wanting us to be the best we can be.

 

Agenda driven b!tches. 

Matt Ryan equivalent is on this team. Its not about being a JC fanboy...

Its about being another player fanboy 

John Collins is not your problem 

4 minutes ago, JTB said:

If OO could start in place of Collins and had the opportunity to share the floor with Murray and Capela at the same time you all would be so amazed.

Collins is only starting over OO cause of shooting ability but in my opinion  OO has way more defensive impact! Its too bad we can’t see him on the floor with Capela but that’s a conversation for a different day.

I definitely agree. Ive always liked his game from high school through college. This Hawks system doesn’t utilize his skillset. He is so talented

33 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Amazing how Okonguw is not a stud off the bench. Another wasted top 6 pick it seems. 

Maybe its this team. Perhaps he's a stud with a Lamelo Ball in that system. Maybe he's a stud on the Spurs or Jazz. You have to look at how this team is run offensively. Not much to work with from a creative standpoint 

7 hours ago, Diesel said:

This team is still feeling each other out.   Not that concerned about it.  Where was all this whining on Thursday Night?  Oh yeah, the whiners only come out when we lose.

 

 

You have off season over the summer (pick up games)

training camp (practice all day with coach and teammates and refs and whistles)

preseason games (pick up games, practice w/real time coaching and teammates and ref whistles)

Regular season play 13 live action games on the road and home. 

How many excuses are you going to make for a bunch of professionals who eat drink and sleep their job from summer until Spring? 

Still feeling each other out? Lordt...what would you say will be a good date to finally gel? 

5 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

You're a 2k playing fan. You probably use Trae to score 50 a game. I can't really take you serious Bubba. So, we'll just cancel each other out if we see one another passing by in threads. 

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I'm telling you maybe one of the guys you listed can make that pass on time, on target.  And have the guts to even try.

Guts? I think Trae has freedom under Nate and all NBA guards have guts. The guys I named are the league's most creative and I didn't even mention Curry or Ball. My point is every guard in the league can do just about anything Trae can do. They can all hit a 30 footer, they all can pass, can float, can layup, can run, and be a floor general. 

Cade

CJ

Jamal Murray

Kyrie

DJM

Ja Morant

Booker

Garland

41 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I am with @TheNorthCydeRises on this. Only a few players can make that pass, Bron, Trae, Jokic, Luka, and CP3. That pass was elite of the elite passes. 

As far as finishing that, the top end finishers can finish that but it would be questionable going down from there. JC is an elite finisher so he can finish that more times than not.

I am with @TheNorthCydeRises on this. Only a few players can make that pass, Bron, Trae, Jokic, Luka, and CP3. That pass was elite of the elite passes. 

As far as finishing that, the top end finishers can finish that but it would be questionable going down from there. JC is an elite finisher so he can finish that more times than not.

So you're telling me Ja can't make that pass? Booker? Haliburton, Kyrie, Murray AND Murray, Garland, Cunningham, CJ cannot make a 60 ft alley hoop pass? 

CJ and Zion can do it in their sleep.