REHawksFan

Personally, there's nothing arbitrary about looking at what Trae is actually accomplishing and then looking to see how many players in NBA history have accomplished the same or better. I think that's fair. And by definition if no other player in history is putting up the combination of numbers he is then it IS historic. You can do the same for Luka, Dame, Harden, Steph, whomever you choose. There's nothing wrong with looking to see how many people are putting up the same or better numbers as a given player. But the real question, in my mind anyway, is what is the relevance or importance of these stats? How challenging is it to put up those numbers and what do they mean? I get that you could always add in some random statistic specific to one player that would exclude all others, but that's not what anyone is doing here. If you break it down like @thecampster did and look at the combination of scoring and assists with the number of FTs, it paints the picture of a much more well rounded player than a lot of historical players. And yes, context matters too because the era they play in and style and pace of play also impact these numbers. I just think looking at the overall season Trae (or any player) has and then measuring that against other players is a good way to determine how common it is for a player to put up those numbers. IF Trae, Luka, and Harden all end up as the only 3 players in history to put up certain numbers, does it make them less historical? Not at all, imo.

He's the one young player that I had thought of that matches salaries AND might be value for value. I'd do this if I were the Hawks and Denver really wanted JC. Trae / Bogie / Hunter / MPJ / Capela I can dig that.

21-20 would look mighty nice heading out west. It's not likely, but it's not impossible either with those teams on the schedule.

Thank you. I'm glad someone else sees it. I was starting to lose my sanity explaining the same things over and over.

Well keep in mind I'm talking about his style of play, not individual play scenarios. You make it out like I'm saying that passing is never the right play. Of course it is. Nate would agree and so to, Rayford, I think. The key for Trae is knowing when to pass and when to take it upon himself to score. Again, Nate and Mr. Young would agree. You like putting words in people's mouths that we didn't say. It's not a zero sum deal. It can and is both. I'm saying I think Trae and the Hawks fair better when early in the game, Trae is establishing his own scoring whether through jumpers or attacking the lane. Then he and the Hawks play off of that. By play off of that, I mean PASSING. I swear I can't figure out if you are being difficult just for the sake of it or if you actually believe the nonsense you are claiming that I say, or intend to say. Either way, I think we've reached the point where I'm no longer interested in explaining the same things over and over and over to you.

So is Atlanta not interested in Randle or is Minny not interested in trading KAT? Unless Atlanta intends to match whatever offer JC gets, I find it hard to imagine they could do better than Randle for JC/Snell. Personally, I'd just keep JC if I were in charge, but I'm trying to think through the options if they weren't on board with JC longterm.

Now you are getting it. For Trae, making the right play is shooting first. Facilitating once that's established. Glad you came around, this discussion was exhausting.

Except it IS consistent with what I've been saying. This is where you seem to be employing selective reading or comprehension skills. I've said over and over today that I applaud that pass. No issue with it whatsoever. It fits EXACTLY with what I've been saying. Trae established his scoring early in the game and then let the facilitating flow out of that. That's EXACTLY what he needs to do. His growth is in understanding at what points he needs to be the superstar and at what point he needs to trust his teammates. That's where he's still learning. But the way the game played out yesterday was exactly the way @TheNorthCydeRises and I and others have been saying Trae needs to play. I'm not sure why you keep thinking I don't want him passing. How much larger and bolder and using colorful fonts do I need to do to get you to actually read the post and comprehend it????? To your point about Nate, I've also said IF they can develop into a consistent defensive team then that will also take the burden off of Trae and make it less necessary for him to be be that scorer that he needs to be now.

I already explained myself in that thread and again in this one. But what the hell, here goes again. When I say "playing the right way," I'm talking about this idea that LP used to talk about all the time and several, including you, on here have alluded to. That is, pass the ball around until it finds an open man, making the extra pass to get the best shot. The problem I have had with that system is - with few notable exceptions - this team didn't have the supporting cast around Trae to actually MAKE the open shots consistently. How many times have we all groaned when Cam or Gallo or even Kevin missed a wide open shot throughout the game? But hey, Trae made the "right pass" and his teammates blew it. With Trae, he needs to score for the Hawks to win. The data suggests he needs to score at least 25-26 points for them to win. I hope we can agree on that, since it's factual information and not my opinion. My point in saying that "playing the right way" doesn't really work for Trae is that generally when he plays games with a focus on facilitating, he does so in lieu of looking for his own shot. Against the Pacers he played the entire game and didn't take a single 3. But hey, he had 14 asts so he was really facilitating. And the Hawks lost by 12 pts. What I have noticed with Trae is that he's almost always going to find his teammates throughout the game. He's only had two games all year with less than 5 ast and only 6 games with less than 7. He's going to facilitate. But he seems to play better overall when he establishes himself as a scorer FIRST and then lets the rest of his game flow through that. "Playing the right way" runs counter to that because it means that early in the game and throughout the entire game he should always be looking to make the next pass and facilitate for his teammates. But his teammates don't consistently come through. And not only that, defenses KNOW his teammates don't come through consistently so Cam / Solo / etc... will ALWAYS be open for Trae to pass to. So when he's more focused on looking for his teammates, he's foregoing his own shot to the detriment of the team. I'm not now - and have never - said he shouldn't rack up assists or that he shouldn't facilitate or make the right pass. What I am saying is that usually when he's focused on that early on, he has a harder time getting into his own offense later. Bottom line for me, Trae seems to play better overall (that's both scoring and facilitating) when he's looking to score first and then letting the passing flow out of that mindset. And it makes sense too because as he establishes himself scoring, it will open up more spacing for his teammates and make their offense easier. And not JUST 3pters. I want him focusing on the floater and attacking. Then once he's drawing the defenders, pass out of it. It also gets him in an early rhythm that a lot of times is carried throughout the game. I really hope this makes sense. I'm tired of arguing with you about this, but this is my opinion. And it's one that's backed up by a good bit of data. I'd appreciate if you want to discuss it, that you at least characterize what I say accurately going forward.

I'm really not sure what else I can say to help you understand. My statements have been the exact same in every post. He needs to be a scorer first and then facilitate. Why are you ignoring half of what I say? I'm legitimately not sure what your issue is and why you continually mischaracterize the things I have been very consistent about.

And you can't find one line where I've said Trae should not be a facilitator and should only shoot. Not one. Yet you continually mischaracterize my comments and statements in an attempt to make me look like I'm saying he should stand around and shoot all game. It's tiresome nonsense.

This I agree with completely. It's a balancing act that Trae has to learn / understand. When to be a scorer and when to facilitate. I personally think he's had his best overall games and put the team in the best position to win when he establishes himself as a scorer first and then facilitates off of that. Of course, situations can dictate a different course (like when he's being doubled from the jump). But in general, Trae needs to establish himself each game for the hawks to have most success. I think part of what Trae needs to learn is how to determine when to facilitate and when to score. That's what his dad was referring to in that Tweet. He made the right choice late in that game. I've got no problem with that choice to facilitate to Snell despite how hard Peo tries to insinuate otherwise.

No. Once again, you are wrong. I've stated numerous times that Trae needs to be a scorer FIRST and then be a facilitator for the hawks to win. I've never once said he needs to take 40 shots or never pass the ball. You are just making crap up to fit your own POV. Until they play consistent defense OR develop another consistent offensive threat (Hunter imo), the reality for this team is they need Trae to be the premiere scorer. And the data backs that up even though you conveniently just ignore it since it doesn't fit your narrative. As for the "playing the right way" comments I've made, I've been very clear that that refers to those you you that think trae should just be a facilitator and not a scorer. The games and data just doesn't support that no matter how much you want it to.

Really? You too? I expect that nonsense from Peo but I thought you were better than that.

You continually fail to understand the basic concept that Trae plays better when he's a scorer first and then a facilitator. Literally no one on this board ever has said that Trae getting assists is bad in and of itself. The problem that some of us have had is that when he's singularly focused on being a facilitator instead of being the scorer and leader that the team needs him to be, it doesn't typically work out well for the Hawks. In the 1st yesterday, Trae scored 10 in the first and got into a rhythm and played better. He still ended up with 8 assists which is a great number for him. It also helps when the team shoots 70% from 3 in the last half of the 4th quarter. I have no problem with passing to Snell in that situation as he was hot and open. I know you like to twist people's words to fit your own narrative, but let's at least try to stay accurate with our discussion.

LOL.....you sure like to make up a bunch of $h!t.

No idea why Cleveland would entertain that trade.

Can't imagine Cavs would entertain that trade since all three guys have more years on their contracts with 2 being old and declining while Drummond is a FA which clears cap space for them.

Been thinking about what, if anything, the Hawks need to improve as a team. The obvious answer is to get healthy. I get that. So lets assume we get Cam back after the break and Hunter is set to return sometime in April for the last 3-4 weeks of the regular season. Is that enough? Some questions: Is the combination of Bogie, Kevin, and Rondo sufficient to handle the backup ballhandling duties while Trae sits or when Trae is the focus of the defense? Or do we need to try to acquire an additional, legit PG? Is the combination of Clint / JC / Gallo / OO sufficient for the front court depth? Can we ride the rest of the season without an additional legit body in there? Is Bruno an answer or do we need to trade for someone? With the wing depth we potentially have once healthy - Dre / Bogie / Kevin / Cam / Snell - is someone superfluous and available for use in a trade? The obvious is Snell with his big salary but other option could be Kevin as a young player with upside. I've ignored Dunn because I have no confidence that he'll play at all this year but he's another player in the rotation if available. So where do we go from here? Ride it out by just getting healthy or make a move to try to get better?

Agree here. True TEAM growth will be evident when the Hawks no longer NEED Trae to go off for them to win. That requires EITHER consistently better defense OR another player taking on more of the playmaking role so as to alleviate the size of the burden on Trae. I've thought all season this would happen with Hunter and when Hunter returns, but the last few games have given me some semblance of hope that it COULD happen through improved team defense. And if Nate turns this squad - sans Dre - into a Top 10 defense he'll be a true miracle worker, imo. As it stands today, Hawks are 10-0 when Trae scores 32 pts and 6-20 when he scores less than 32.

Thats fair. But I thought even in the 1st he gave more effort that we've seen most of the year. He's limited physically so he's always going to give up some things.

Can we take a minute to discuss Gallo's effort on D tonight and even last night? Nate getting the best out of him.

That was fun. I like a little nerves as long as it ends well. Exhilarating.

And now 13-2 when he shoots 40% or better from 3.

Shoulda put Trae in at the last TO when the lead was 6. Ugh