Packfill

56 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Not sure where you got that.   It was pretty clear what Trae said.  He's not interested in being on a rebuilding team and waiting 2-4 years to be competitive.  Not sure how that is bad or any different than every other really good player in this league.  

Org has a decision to make.  Are we actually going to field a playoff cailibre roster or tear it down.  

To be devil's advocate, you could take the position that (a) Trae has not been on a competitive team for 3 years now and (b) given the expanded playoff format, just being a playoff team in and of itself is not a significant accomplishment, particularly in the East for the past few years.

To me the real question is whether the current roster has the right talent and composition to be a contender.  My answer would be no, in large measure due to the defensive shortcoming, lack of size or perennial injury risks of a handful of rotation players (chiefly Hunter, OO, Bogi and JJ).

Others can feel free to disagree but I do not see how the team can solve its defensive/size issues without trading DJM (I don't think they would trade Trae). Such a trade may involve a step back in order to take two steps forward.  

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Part of that has to do with OO's development since being drafted. Not only in the games he has missed due to injury, but the offseasons he has spent having to rehab vs working on his game. It all adds up. Can't forget 3 coaches as well.

Not sure I buy what you are selling (and to be clear, this is my personal view and I am not intending to invalidate your position).  OO played 80 games last season and had a full off-season for the first time to work on his game and yet he did not get better.  Without question last season with the experience he received and the health he had coupled with the new better coaching should have been his springboard to a new level and he just did not make that leap.  That to me is very worrisome for his long term outlook.

Happy to be proven wrong.

37 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Whatever you want to think.  It isn't factual, but if you want to think it, go ahead.  Al was a better player in his prime, and there is no reason for OO to keep from getting to that level or close to it.  OO can be another Bam Adebayo.  But let's continue to label him like Al was labeled.  

I don't think it is an insult to OO to say he is not as good as Al.  That is just a fact.  

I wish OO could be as good as Al or Bam but I just don't see it.  For one thing he does not have, or at least has not to date evidenced that he has, the court vision or passing acumen those guys have.

I don't see how anyone could support having OO as the starter given his track record of getting hurt.  He is almost guaranteed to miss 20+ games a year.  The Hawks would absolutely need to have a guy behind him who is just as good, because otherwise you are setting the team up to be massively shorthanded during the prolonged periods OO is unavailable.

Just think about going forward with a frontline of OO, JJ and Hunter.  Realistically, how many games per season do you envision those three all being available?  40 games where all three are healthy at the same time?  Would you take the over or the under?

I would 100% support moving OO if the team could get a good return due to the fact that he has so far not been able to force the issue and take CC's job and the fact that he has a real availability problem.

21 hours ago, macdaddy said:

Next year Murray will be making $25 M going up to 31 M over 4 years. 

In addition, OO goes up to $14 next year I believe.

57 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Another source that thinks were more likely to trade Trae.

To be clear, Hollinger himself is not saying to trade Trae, he is passing along what he has "heard".  Whether what he has heard is credible is obviously open for debate.

Personally, I find it is unlikely they trade Trae.  Given that, I hope they move Murray because to me running it back makes no sense at all unless the goal is to be mediocre.  

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

 

 

Caption of that video is misleading since it shows highlights from multiple seasons (Ivey is in some of those highlights). 

3 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Back 2 life, back 2 reality for Mr. Coby so far. 

Big difference playing against a team that plays defense versus whatever it is the Hawks do. Hawks have an uncanny ability to allow average players have career days. 

Guys like OO and Hunter are very difficult to rely on because they get injured so often. JJ concerns me in that regard as well. And in OO’s case he isn’t even playing a starter workload. How can you rely on him to play 30 minutes a night.

I would be totally fine with packaging OO with DJM to get a better return and fit around Trae.

CC I see as having low trade value so hard to move him in a deal that impacts winning. 

15 hours ago, kg01 said:

@lethalweapon3 deserves credit as I stole it from him.  Inspired by GT's bball coach. 

Worst part of that game is it made people forget that Coby White has a mortal fear of Trae.

Coby White sure seemed to forget that. He had no fear shooting from distance or going right to the cup. 

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Both honestly should be 2nd rounders. Missi further away but he's also more likely to reach his potential. 

In my opinion they are both first rounders in this weak draft. 

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think Trae and DJM need to be split.  Both guys had positive net ratings when the other was off the court and they were highly negative when both were in the court.  I’ve never seen them synergize.  One needs to go, imo.  As always, you need a real return on the trade but I think we are in trouble if those two are starting next to each other to start next season.

I agree. Quinn has had 100+ games to see this backcourt won’t work. Time to be proactive and fix this. 

4 hours ago, marco102 said:

My favorite center is Kel'el Ware.  He has a lot to work on as far a feel for the game. motor and screening. 

To me he's the most talented center in this draft.  I'm looking for a two way center and he fits that mold better than any center in this draft in my opinion.

He can shoot, defend, and moves well.

 

Ware and Missi are talented but need substantial development. I doubt either will crack an NBA rotation for at least a year and a half, and more likely two years, after being drafted. 

Hawks need to make some major moves this off season. Rolling it back plus some draft picks will not change the results. 

The fact that Bufkin.and Mo can’t get run over third stringers is not a ringing endorsement. 

Call me a hater but I do not see the upside in this roster. 

3 hours ago, shakes said:

 

never good when I need @NBASupes to come in and explain my jokes to people.    Never good, but always appreciated 

For some reason I was thinking Jalen Hardy (g-league alum and now on Mavs) versus Jaden Ivey.  My bad.

1 hour ago, shakes said:

I see two future HOFers, one potential good player who I know nothing about and then two overrated stiffs from Purdidn't who both peaked in college..

Chet peaked in college?  His rookie year says otherwise from my perspective.

Unless I am wrong Zach and Edey are the only two of those guys who suited up for a U.S. college program.

My focus is on defense.  Ideally I want a big and a big wing, at least one of which is ready to play as a rookie.  Clingan is definitely a target but unfortunately I am expecting him to be gone before I get to make a pick.

That said, I would be looking to move Murray in the off-season so the return on that trade may change what I do in the draft.

C+ for Quinn from me.  Injuries is the only excuse.

Outside of JJ I am not seeing the player development - all the other recent draftees have either been injured or otherwise have not evidenced definitively that they can be reliable rotation pieces going forward.  Bruno, Vit and the Mathews will go back to being third stringers once everyone else is healthy.  

15 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I don’t think rookies should play anyway.  

I understand where you are coming from Quinn . . .

17 hours ago, KB21 said:

I like this draft.  

To me that is a draft high on upside and low on on court contributions for at least a year or two.  If I was the Hawks GM I want one of those first rounders able to play from day one.  Maybe that is asking too much from this draft.  

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

None of them were excellent players. 

Oscar wasn't 

Luka wasn't 

Frank wasn't 

Hansbrough is the best of what you listed and he wasn't one and he was a MIP candidate and a 6th man of the year candidate. Tyler probably ended up the 15-17 best player in his class which is around where he got picked. 

Jimmer had a worst DBPM than Trae Young in a middling conference and didn't have a PG game but was PG size. His career went as expected. 

None of these guys were excellent. Most were just good. Hansbrough, very good. They weren't as good as senior Clarke, senior Cameron Johnson, senior Edey, and junior Mikal Bridges. 

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=tyler-hansbrough--jimmer-fredette--frank-mason--luka-garza--oscar-tshiebwe

Excellent players 

https://www.tankathon.com/players/compare?players=zach-edey--mikal-bridges--brandon-clarke--cameron-johnson

The biggest issue those against Edey have is really their floor is just insanely too low. Edey floor is very high for most situations. It's his upside that's an issue for most teams. 

So Hansbrough was not a better college player than 5th year senior Cam Johnson in your estimation?  Hansbrough was player of the year and won a title for a reason.  Also of note, that of the 4 UNC players drafted in Hansbrough's draft that year he had the shortest career of the bunch.

And let us remember what Cam Johnson is - a decent rotation player with a nice outside shot and just enough defense.   The Hawks could use him as an upgrade over Bey.  

50 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I missed on a bevy of OADs. Reddish, Bamba, WCJ, Bol who had medical issues, Ayton who's disappointed. 

Only upperclassmen I've ever missed on was Toppin and Cameron Johnson. I had him as a late 1st rounder. I didn't see him being a 100 million dollar player. I felt small ball 4 would be his role but didn't realize, he wouldn't be a liability playing it. I was wrong on him and PHX who took him at 11 was right. Shouldn't have wrongfully graded an excellent college player. Him, Edey, Clarke, and Mikal Bridges were EXCELLENT college players. If someone is excellent in college, you should think they will at least be productive NBA players. At the least. They weren't excellent for no reason in college. All of the greats who played and only so few have been excellent. 

Plenty of collegiate all-americans and players of the year that have done nadda in the NBA.

Two recent Wooden Award winners are Oscar Tschiebwe and Luke Garza.  Or look back a few years at Frank Mason, Tyler Hansbrough and Jimmer Fredette.

Looking at the list of winners - Kevin Durant's freshman year was nuts!

While I think this is a great win I do not view any individual game as evidence of any specific long-term trend.

In saying that, I note that with or without Trae this team is mid - and has been for a few seasons now (basically since they lost in the ECF finals).  

I am hoping DJM's opportunity to play point in Trae's absence and the spike in his numbers help inflate his trade value so the team can move him in the off-season for a better long term fit next to Trae.  I still think that trade has to happen to move this team to the next level.  I wish I felt differently.

Great win.