thesheedera

It is a great thing to see, finally. Hollinger's preview says it all: Only one small forward took fewer 3-pointers per field-goal attempt than Williams, and only seven had a higher rate of free-throw attempts per field-goal attempt. Based on those numbers you'd think he was a lumbering post player, but he's a jump shooter. Really, I swear. In fact, nearly half of his attempts were long 2-pointers, and only three players in all of basketball -- Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady and Travis Outlaw -- took more long 2s than Williams. He made a healthy 45.4 percent of them, the best mark of any player in the top 10 in attempts, and only Portland's Outlaw had a greater proportion of his attempts come from this distance. Not extending his range has been the second most frustrating thing to see from him for this Marvin fan. The first has been his overall lack of aggression compared to his college days. I'm not sure what to think about it, but this could be the final nail in the coffin of Marvin becoming a strictly perimeter oriented player who occasionally mixes it up inside. The potential good news - if he can become a really dependable 3 point shooter, his entire value to our team changes dramatically in a way that definitely translates to more Ws. Increased point production and better spacing of the floor, as well as directly addressing one of our team's biggest weaknesses. The potential bad news - I really hope it doesn't lead to him standing in place more than he already does. I REALLY wish we could watch these games to see how these shots have been coming in the flow of the offense.

I'd put it this way: When Josh Smith is having a great game, we're almost unstoppable. Marvin rarely has a great game. When Josh Smith is having a good game it helps us win, and it gets fans excited. When Marvin is having a good game it helps us win as much as good JS games help us win, but it isn't as exciting to watch. When Josh Smith appears indifferent, he doesn't help or hurt the team. He's rarely indifferent. When Marvin appears extremely passive, he doesn't help or hurt the team. He's more often extremely passive than Smith is indifferent. When Josh Smith is having a BAD game, he can really disrupt the team and cause us to lose. It doesn't happen often, but when it does it's crystal clear and destroys more of his built up good will than it probably should. When Marvin is having a BAD game, it hurts the team to some degree but it isn't significantly worse than the effect of his extremely passive games. Smith is currently the better player with more upside and marketability. He's impact is more volatile with spikes of highs and lows. He can REALLY help you, but he can REALLY hurt you. Luckily for us the peaks far outnumber the valleys, and because he's such a young guy still, logic suggests that the trend will continue to accelerate towards the positive. Marvin has a steadier impact, but his peaks are not close to Josh's peaks and his valleys aren't as low as Josh's valleys. Most of us would accept more valleys from him if it meant a lot more peaks, but ideally his entire curve would rise and his steadiness would remain the same. These two guys are ABSOLUTELY compatible, and their yin-yang could be a perfect combo if they can both trend in the right direction. Even if Josh remains as he is, we'll get plenty out of him. If Marvin remains as he is, we would be better off without him.

I don't have much confidence in Woodson, but I voted "yes" because I don't think getting to the 2nd round of the playoffs is much of a reach or this team. This roster has been pretty stable, and we'll have the benefit of Bibby playing from the beginning of the season, Law with a year under his belt, and the possibility of help from Speedy too. Marvin, Smith and Horford have another year of experience and an offseason under their belts and JJ still has several prime years to go. Losing Childress hurts, but the roster additions and my assumed improvements noted above will more than make up for his departure. Last year we were a win away from the 2nd round, and as an 8 seed. I don't EXPECT to make it to the 2nd round, but it is possible, in spite of who our coach is. Best case scenario: 5 or 6 seed and a trip to the 2nd round. Worst case: we finish right at or below .500 and miss the 8 seed in a new and improved eastern conference. My expectation is somewhere in the middle - a few games over .500 and another decent showing (6 or 7 games) as a 7 or 8 seed. I want an experienced winning coach asap for this team, but I have no confidence in the ASG making it happen any tme soon.

Has AHF chimed in on Morris since we signed him?

I have no idea if this is good balanced info or a serious spin job, but it sure as hell seemed informative to me. I haven't been paying much attention to this situation, so thanks for a great recap. Now if it's just a huge spin job, go to hell you red bastard. ;)

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/h...liams_news.html

You're still dense. The article was about Sean May being back at school. If the article were a critical piece on Marvin Williams' offseason workouts, then yes, Marvin should defend himself by listing what he's working on and who he's working with. In an article like this one, there's no reason for him to get into the specifics of his summer workouts. The question you're assuming he had no answer for was never asked! If the reporter did ask questions about Marvin's summer workouts, he sure didn't seem to fel the need to expound on it. You and a few others are taking the absence of evidence to try and prove something. You might as well claim that Josh Smith has never worked on his ball handling because in the last article I read about him he never mentioned it. See how that would be dense?

I think that's like asking "do you think I should choose a Ferrari or a Lamborghini" if I wanted to drive fast.

Well that's a completely different subject - different thread. I'm definitely disappointed with Marvin's career so far, and I've said it plenty of times. But this thread is about is what he's doing this summer and what he did last summer, and he's been getting railed for both for no good reason. We should be damn glad he's in Chapel Hill. Far better there among people who know basketball rather than hanging out around Philips Arena with the ASG and our incompetent staff.

The problem is that no one here has any evidence that Marvin ISN'T focusing on basketball! There are 24 hours in a day. You CAN take a few classes AND work on your game. College athletes do it constantly, and many have far better work ethic than professional players. Many pro athletes run full time business on the side. You simply can't be working on basketball 100% of the minutes you're awake, because you'd literally kill yourself. He wasn't on one of those rosters becuase that random internet poster didn't have all the rosters handy, and that particular summer league has players that come and go depending on their summer schedules. I can't find the link, but there were a total of 8 teams in that league, and one of the rosters had 17 guys on it. I have no idea how many agmes any of those guys listed actually played in or will play in. It was just one example of what happens in the RTP community in the offseason, because apparently many posters seem to think they're all just playing playstation and watching spongebob.

Here's a clip from one of the pickup games in the Dean Dome. No Marvin for this one, but it's a pretty good example of the kind of games that take place throughout the day, every day in gyms all around the RTP. This one is for UNC campers, but from what I understand many of the games have refs to keep things balanced, and hell, refs gotta practice too. http://gallery.mac.com/benlora#100341 Stackhouse and Jawad Williams among the former players in this game. I think Jackie Manuel is out there as well. Not excatly And1

You sure about that? You think Antawn's just working on his And1 moves too? Ironic that you mentioned him, look where his name lands in this post from inside carolina about one of the summer leagues: "Team Rosters Nolan Smith, Olek Czyz and Kyle Singler are playing on Barnstomers with Sean Dockery, Rasheed Wallace, Gerald Wallace and Shammond Williams. Miles Plumlee and Jon Scheyer are playing with Raymond Felton, Sean May and PJ Tucker on Team Felton. Lance Thomas is playing with Jerry Stackhouse, Reggie Bullock, Josh Howard, Danny Green and John Wall on the Regulators. Elliot Williams and Steve Johnson are playing for E-Net with Ty Lawson, Wayne Ellington and Josh Powell. Other competition includes Antawn Jamison, Marvin Williams, Ed Cota, David West. David Noel, Deon Thompson and Gavin Grant. Admission is free. There are games tonight, July 15th, 17th, 22nd, 24th, 29th. 31st and August 5th from 6 to 10 PM. Playoffs run from August 9th to August 11th. Every team plays every time they play. The games are at NCCU's main McClendon-McDougald gym. So stop complaining that there are no pickup reports and get your butts over there to make your own reports!"

Marvin told us he was playing pick up games until a Hawks's assistant told him to "work on his game". Not true. You don't know WHEN that conversation took place, you don't know who contacted who, and you left out that he also said he was working out in the morning, pickup games later in the day. That may have been a week into the offseason, or 3 months. YOU DON'T KNOW!

Okay, so you ARE as f@#$king dense as Diesel...AND Walter. Congrats. You do realize that you're taking something at face value that is from Walter taking a quote from one article out of context. You don't know when Marvin and Fizdale first talked, and you don't know who contacted who. You don't know who Marvin's working out with, or what he's working on, or how vigorously, but becuase one article (that was primarily about May becuase he's a local pro that the Bobcats have had a lot riding on) only mentions Sean May, you know for a fact that May's the only guy Marvin's had any interaction with all summer. Funny that when Childress went to China, no one was dumb enough to assume that ALL he did during that offseason was sight see. Funny that when Horford goes back to school everyone assumes he's working his tail off all summer. Admit that your bias is preventing you to be rational about what Marvin's up to this summer and last summer.

And how do you know that May is the only guy he's working out with? If you and Diesel are so sure of his summer workout schedule, please be so kind as to share it with us. There are dozens and dozens of guys working on their games in the RTP right now. And you assume that Marvin's ONLY working with May? Because the article didn't mention anyone else? You're as f*@%ing dense as Diesel.

You can always tell when the likes of Deisel and Walt realize their arguments/complaints are absurd. It's not like these guys haven't been on the board ALL DAY LONG, they just don't have any other ways to spin their nonsense.

Again - this is only a partial list of guys who are either currently or have in the past spent their summers in the RTP working on playing/coaching basketball: Michael Jordan, James Worthy, Jerry Stackhouse, Hubert Davis, George Lynch, Eric Montross, Antawn Jamison, Sam Perkins, Brad Daugherty, JR Reid, Sheed, Boozer, Dunleavy, Josh Howard, David West, Sean May, Felton, PJ Tucker, Shammond Williams, Ronald Murray, David Noel, Ricky Clemons, Jawad Williams, Clint Deas, Josh Powell, Roy Williams, Dean Smith, and Bill Guthridge, Larry Brown, Michael Jordan, George Karl, Mitch Kupchak, and Phil Ford... And that's from the top of my head, the article this thread started, and Stackhouse's summer league rosters. That's probably not more than 5% of the successful basketball players/coaches who have spent their summers in the RTP (Chapel Hill, Raleigh, and Durham) and Winston Salem over the years. I love how Walt and Diesel spin the idea of spending a summer in Chapel Hill into something not related to basketball. Chapel Hill IS BASKETBALL!!!!!! World class facilities World class competition (not referring just to Stack's summer league - that's a mishmash of both world class and lower level talent - there are regular games in dozens of gyms throughout the area in the summer, including daily games in Chapel Hill with former, current and future Heels as well as friends from other programs or NBA teams) World class expertise to work with and learn from UNC basketball is a family (as are many other programs of course). Guys return to Chapel Hill. They work together, they help each other get better, they look out for each other. Some work the camps, some are in school, some are just there to take advantage of the citical mass. But they're all WORKING. The competition can be fierce - there are scuffles and scraps - this ain't just some guys playing horse. The pickup and summer league games are only part of the equation. These guys are putting in time eevry day to improve their games so they can make a living. The best that ever played thought it was a good place to spend more than a few summers (and I saw him there many times as a kid, visiting family who lived there), so I see no reason why it wouldn't be a good place for Marvin too!

A few other players off the top of my head who spent summers in Chapel Hill working on their games, whether they were working towards graduation or not: Michael Jordan - took classes James Worthy - took classes Jerry Stackhouse - took classes Hubert Davis - probably not - graduated before NBA George Lynch - same as Hubert Eric Montross - same Antawn Jamison - took classes Sam Perkins - not sure Brad Daugherty - not sure JR Reid - took classes Sheed - pretty sure no classes ...and dozens and dozens more. Many of these guys have brought friends/NBA teammates with them to add to the critical mass. Added to that are countless Duke alumni (that article mentioned Boozer and Dunleavy)and friends/teammates that live in or around the research triangle during the summer. Wake and NC State alumni too, although some of them may be sleeping as far away as 30-45 minutes. Marvin and May are also spending some time participating in Stackhouse's summer pro-am basketball league, with other slackers such as current/former NBA players Stack, Sheed, Josh Howard, David West, May, Felton, PJ Tucker, Shammond Williams, Ronald Murray, David Noel, Ricky Clemons, Jawad Williams, Clint Deas, and Josh Powell. The amatuers include about 50% of the current rosters from UNC and Duke, as well as some from Wake, NC State and other local programs, and even a few of the best high school prospects in the region. While in Chapel Hill, former UNC players have access to such horrible basketball minds as Roy Williams and his staff, Dean Smith, and Bill Guthridge. Not to mention that alumni have complete access to the UNC strength and conditioning facilities and staff, which are probably better (and certainly better funded) than what the Hawks provide. Throughout the spring and summer, more unqualified basketball people are available to meet/talk/work with while they come in and out of town such as Larry Brown, Michael Jordan, George Karl, Mitch Kupchak, and Phil Ford. The Research Triangle region is one of the world's great epicenters of the international basketball community. I'm willing to bet the only place that has as good or a better collection of talent, knowledge and experience during the offseason months is whatever spot that Team USA happens to be in at that moment. Marvin is exactly where he should be. It's the place where he can best improve his basketball skills, physical condition, education, and prepare himself for his presnt and future in the NBA, as well as his future after basketball.

Thanks for all the responses - sounds like status quo in AtlantaSpiritLLCland. Do just enough to get people's hopes up, then let the momentum fizzle with inaction and incompetency.

I've been unable to really keep up with the last week of news on Smith. I don't care about every last detail, but what's the big picture? What's happened on the Smith front since the Childress announcement? What are the chances we come to a mutually beneficial agreement and keep him? Is a sign and trade more likely than keeping him? Are you all excited about the possibilities of a sign and trade, or are we looking at a doomsday scenario?

I'm surprised that more posters here wouldn't want Felton. I like Acie and think he has potential, but I haven't seen anything that tells me he'll be better than Felton. Felton's 3 years into his development as a PG, and most PG's take some time. He's been hindered by the fact that his team has been horrible, their coaching is as bad or worse than ours, and he's played a ton of games at the 2 spot - way out of position for him. That has hurt his FG% cause he's been matched up for stretches against bigger guards, and he;s been forced into a role that requires him perfomr as a jumpshooter, which ahs never been his game. He's not a great shooter by any menas, but he is a very good "scorer" from the 1 spot. He's also an up tempo player in a system that's been more half court, and will only become more limited to the half court with LB in the mix. Bickerstaff and Jordan seem convinced he's more of a combo than a PG, yet when he gets to play exclusively at the 1, he plays much better and their team performs better. He finished the season #7 in the NBA in apg this year, that certainly makes a decent case that he should be used only as a PG. Deron and Paul have been better, and I don't doubt that they will continue to be better, but those guys are at a very elite level already. I also admit that Calderon looks like a better prospect than Felton at this point, but I want to see him run a team on his own before I'm fully convinced. What other young PGs are out there that have performed as well as Felton or retain as much potential as he does? Rondo? Very possibly, complete freak of nature and seems to hit timely jumpers despite the knock on his ability to shoot. BUt how much of his success was playing with such a loaded bunch of vets? Tony Parker's had the benefit of playing with great players, but I think he's pretty darn legit too. Kidd and Nash probably don't have much in the tank. Billups has more but probably not by much. I don't really consider Baron or Gilbert true PGs, but they're obviously on a level above Felton. I like Law, but Felton's closer to a known quantity as a young PG and after watching him display excellent leadership qualities in college I don't think he's lacking in the intangibles department. Why not give Felton a shot and let Law try to beat him out as he gains experience? If we want to be up tempo he could be a great fit. If he goes to the Knicks be prepared to change your opinion on him after seeing what he could do in D'Antoni's system.

Quote: I agree it's insane and irresponsible. Even if you can afford it, why WASTE all that gas? These enormous vehicles just continue to give money to the arabs. JJ, if you want to throw money away, why not give it to the homeless or charity instead? I love JJ as a player, but my opinion of him as a human being went down a little. Would you rather he buy a small jet and give money "to the arabs" that way instead?

Quote: I already stated that Marv should take up a soccer camp and hit the weights... Put on some beef and work on the footwork... (if he stays) Funny you mention this, Marvin actually played soccer (gaolie) in highschool for a season, maybe 2.

Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: 16. Philly 17. Toronto 18. Washington 19. Cleveland 20. Denver 21. New Jersey 22. Orlando 23. Utah Target: Roy Hibbert/Robin Lopez Definitely Cleveland. They are championship quality. They don't have time to develop. Everybody is talkin the loss of Lebron to NY. Cleveland is over the cap. You can't send them Mike Bibby's huge deal for even one season without having to take back a huge chunk of salary. Bibby is earning MORE than Lebron James at present. Even if they cut salary by NOT resigning anyone whose contract is expiring, I'm pretty sure that there's only three guys who have enough money on the books to help make room to take on Bibby's deal-Ilgauskus, Ben Wallace, Wally Sczerbiak. They're not going to give us any of those guys AND a first round pick to get Bibby's expiring contract. I can't even begin to draw up a trade with Cleveland that deals with the salary issues and still nets us a first round draft pick. No I didn't say Pick for Player. I said that Cleveland may deal their pick. As far as a trade: Marvin Williams, Speedy Claxton, and Mike Bibby for Wally Z, Eric Snow, Damon Jones, and a 1st. Before you go balking... We get a 1st rounder... and 3 ending contracts. Plus both Wally and Jones can shoot! They get a Young Marvin and they get to try Bibby out with James for a championship run. I didn't know you thought Marvin's age was still relevant.

Quote: Most of you have a personal vendetta against the Atlanta Spirit Group and every little thing that goes wrong is somehow their fault. How can every little thing not be their fault? They are responsible for everything that's happened, good and bad, to this franchise since they came on board. Who else woud be at fault? Every player, coach and front office employee is under the umbrella of this ownership group. They are first and last.