Smoov for the long term? or will it be Marvin

[DawsonsCreek]

I think Smoov is one of the most gifted athletes in the league but it just seems like he makes the same mistakes over and over and over again. Everytime I watch a game hes shooting illadvised jumpers and trying to run fast breaks which turn into disaster. I figure that he and Marvin are playing for one longterm spot on this team, because I dont think ATL can keep both. I think Horford is a keeper at PF. Something about Josh just doesnt feel right. I think its his attitude (sour face on a daily basis) and his inability to not make the same mistakes on the court(turnover waiting to happen). To me, he's the same player as last year. He can sure fill up a stat sheet but at the same time hes holding himself back from being alot better then he is(which would be scary).

I hope he can get it together. If not Im ready for Marvin to be the fulltime SF in the future (hopefully we can get a center next year and let AL play PF).

[exodus]

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I think Horford is a keeper at PF.

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What has Horford done to be a keeper? He rebounds well but he doesn't have the upside that Smith has by a longshot.

[SmooveTheFuture]

Would be asking these questions in the summer time no. The fact that SMith hasnt played his best bal in these 5-6 games doesnt mean anything a season is measured by 82 games not a handful. I think he will be alright when its a said and done. Alot of fans on here are what have you done for me lately fans the said people bashing marvin last year are the ones saying he is the greatest ever now.

[HawksFan87]

I'm not happy with the way Smoove has played these first 6 games, although he is getting much better. The thing is it is just 6 games. And the HAWKS have more to lose if they where to trade Smoove then if they where to trade Marvin who.I think is actually looking like a real NBA player now... Billy Knight is dumb but not that dumb.

[Diesel]

Even though I may talk about trading Smoove, I still believe that Smoove is the most necessary player on our team. The fact that we can't find Smoove a place in the offense speaks more to coaching than it does to his play.

[Murat]

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I think Horford is a keeper at PF.

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What has Horford done to be a keeper? He rebounds well but he doesn't have the upside that Smith has by a longshot.

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What upside? Horford has as much upside as Smoove does.

[AnakinJoe]

What plays do the Suns run for Marion (other than the occassional back door alley-oop)? I can't think of ANY play (other than that one) that we could run for Smith in a half-court offense. He can't dribble well enough to be isolated on a wing. He can't pick and pop. Catch & shoot? Maybe pick and roll but he still needs to be able to drill the open shot (or dribble) if both defenders collapse on Smith's teammate. He hasn't shown any post-up strength or skills.

Let's face it, he's not a skilled offensive player. He could score 16-20 points/game just on fast breaks and garbage plays, which is essentially how Marion gets his points. If Smith stayed in constant motion on offense like Childress does, looking for the open seams near the basket, then he would find himself open for a ton of dunks and easy lay-ups. He should be shooting 55%+ and not less than 40%.

[exodus]

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I think Horford is a keeper at PF.

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What has Horford done to be a keeper? He rebounds well but he doesn't have the upside that Smith has by a longshot.

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What upside? Horford has as much upside as Smoove does.

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Why is that? Because he is 10 pounds heavier?

he is averaging almost as many turnovers as Smith and hardly handles the ball at all. At least Smith is trying to make things happen. Horford just looks clumsy with the ball.

He doesn't look good with his midrange shot or from the line. His post game has been weak.

I just don't see what he has done for anyone to assume he is the long term answer at the 4.

[Murat]

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I think Horford is a keeper at PF.

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What has Horford done to be a keeper? He rebounds well but he doesn't have the upside that Smith has by a longshot.

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What upside? Horford has as much upside as Smoove does.

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Why is that? Because he is 10 pounds heavier?

he is averaging almost as many turnovers as Smith and hardly handles the ball at all. At least Smith is trying to make things happen. Horford just looks clumsy with the ball.

He doesn't look good with his midrange shot or from the line. His post game has been weak.

I just don't see what he has done for anyone to assume he is the long term answer at the 4.

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Come on Ex you are inteligent guy (at least from your posts) you should know that he is being misused in Woody's "offense". The guy is playing high post on offense and usualy has the ball too far from where he is used to when he was at Florida. If you watched him at Florida you would know that he was playing strictly low post. Plus he is a rookie and those turnovers will go down as he matures. He is not getting enough touches in the low post and he was calling for the ball several times last game, but nobody passed to him.

[coachx]

We keep them both.

Why do you torture yourself with thinking we can only keep one of them ?

[exodus]

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He is not getting enough touches in the low post and he was calling for the ball several times last game, but nobody passed to him.

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He hasn't done much with it when he has been down there. he can't back guys down and winds up taking a jump hook from way too far out (assuming he doesn't turn it over).

The only decent post move i have seen from him is a turnaround J. Other than that he hasn't shown anything. His midrange shot reminds me of Bill Cartwright.

[Murat]

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He is not getting enough touches in the low post and he was calling for the ball several times last game, but nobody passed to him.

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He hasn't done much with it when he has been down there. he can't back guys down and winds up taking a jump hook from way too far out (assuming he doesn't turn it over).

The only decent post move i have seen from him is a turnaround J. Other than that he hasn't shown anything. His midrange shot reminds me of Bill Cartwright.

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Be honest he isn't getting a lot of chances to prove him self that he will be a good low post scorer. He needs way more attemts than he has gotten so far.

[exodus]

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Be honest he isn't getting a lot of chances to prove him self that he will be a good low post scorer. He needs way more attemts than he has gotten so far.

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If he got the ball as much as Smith he would probably average 8 TO's.

Let him actually prove he can score before you assume he is a long term keeper at the 4 spot. He is averaging 8.5 ppg and 3 turnovers. That is pretty lame.

[AtLaS]

I have also noticed that Horford hasn't finished well inside. He seems to get the ball stripped alot when he gets fed the ball (when he's open), it seems when he goes up for the dunk or layup he's often stripped. What I mean is in situations where someone drives, Horford's man picks them up, and they dish to Horford, he's been bad at finishing those in traffic. He just needs to go up STRONG and that won't happen or he will be fouled.

[Traceman]

I think he has range up to 18 feet. He has a nice jab step J. He has a nice turnaround J. He has a nice jump hook. Sure, he needs to get stronger and he needs to learn how to protect the ball in traffic but all rookies do. As for his handles, he handles it on the break better than Smoove does already. I see FAR more potential for Horford's post game than I do for Smoove's post game.

Smoove's game is infinitely more flashy and he is a FAR more gifted athlete (hell, who DOES have the athleticism of Smoove) but I think Horford's overall potential as a BASKETBALL PLAYER is on par with Smoove's potential simply because Horford is FAR more fundamentally sound. If both reach their potential, it is like the difference between Dr. J and Moses Malone.

[DJlaysitup]

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...simply because Horford is FAR more fundamentally sound...

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I really don't know - I haven't seen enough of AH to be sure...but overall you are probably right.

Now as far as the mechanics of their shots go, JS is superior. Granted he has been shooting poorly, but fundamentally he has the better jumpshot. Al puts a bit of sidespin on his shots. It's easiest to see if you are sitting close and he's shooting a free throw or a 10-12 foot jumper.

That's not to say he can't be very effective with his shot...only that mechanically it isn't as good.

The best shooter I ever saw from a mechanical standpoint was Larry Bird. He would come down to SIU (with INDY State) and park in the corner. His shooting arm was like a well machined lever...plus he had perfect balance...nothing but net.

If nobody was in his face he could make 40 of 50 from the corner.

[AnnArborHawk]

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Now as far as the mechanics of their shots go, JS is superior. Granted he has been shooting poorly, but fundamentally he has the better jumpshot.

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Not sure I would agree with that. Josh has his entire body turned at an angle when he shoots, and doesn't square up to the basket. That's one of the main reasons his shot goes all over the place. Other than that, it's pretty solid. He's got a nice stroke and gets good spin on the ball, but I'm afraid he'll continue to be inconsistent until he learns to shoot with his feet square with the basket.

Right now he looks a little uncomfortable shooting, like he's thinking through the mechanics too much. Probably trying to remember all the things Calvin Murphy taught him over the summer. I don't think he's quite at the point where he's comfortable enough with his mechanics to just pull the trigger without thinking.

I know how he feels...I feel the same way half the time I swing a golf club. Now what was that instructor telling me to do? Keep my left arm straight, turn with my hips...

[DJlaysitup]

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...Not sure I would agree with that. Josh has his entire body turned at an angle when he shoots, and doesn't square up to the basket. That's one of the main reasons his shot goes all over the place. Other than that, it's pretty solid. He's got a nice stroke and gets good spin on the ball, but I'm afraid he'll continue to be inconsistent until he learns to shoot with his feet square with the basket.

Right now he looks a little uncomfortable shooting, like he's thinking through the mechanics too much. Probably trying to remember all the things Calvin Murphy taught him over the summer. I don't think he's quite at the point where he's comfortable enough with his mechanics to just pull the trigger without thinking.

I know how he feels...I feel the same way half the time I swing a golf club. Now what was that instructor telling me to do? Keep my left arm straight, turn with my hips...

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Funny...the one thing I wanted to add to that post was that JS seldom shoots from a balanced/solid position. He's always moving around. You hit the nail on the head there. A quality PG who could get him open shots in approximately the same spot would help.

(OT) Golf-wise, I have a story (I'll keep it relatively short).

I've played since I was about 14. I was also a baseball player. So basically I tried to kill the ball every time I got on the tee. I cleared my hips way too early and rolled over the shot with my right hand. The result was bigtime hooks. I often thought that if I really tried - I could hook a golf ball around so far that I could catch it.

Anyway, due to some personal issue (no - not jail) I gave up the game for 5 years. Then about a year ago a friend of mine asked if I would like to join his foursome in the CDC golf league. I figured "why not"? Then he told me that one of the other guys would be our Branch Chief (my bosses' boss) Well that made me a bit nervous. I figured - if you don't want to make a damned fool out of yourself just keep cool - don't try to kill it (you haven't hit a golf ball in 5 years) - stay balanced - and keep your eye on the ball until after it's gone.

(not) Surprisingly I hit almost every T-ball down the middle...only took me 30 years to figure that one out

I love golf again now - I can play without hiking in the woods Moral to the story...balance is key in nearly all sports.

[exodus]

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I think he has range up to 18 feet. He has a nice jab step J. He has a nice turnaround J. He has a nice jump hook.

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I don't see it. his form on his shot isnt very good. His jump hook doesn't look like anything special, and he is going to be shooting it over taller players most of the time. He has had a few blocked already.

I think people have been seeing things in Horford that aren't really there. Remember he is the same age as Smith and Marvin. I would like to see him score in double figures for the second time before i start projective offensive success for him.

As much of a headache as Smith can be he can make a big impact on a game (although sometimes it is a negative one). I just don't see Horford being an impact player. I see him sort of like Childress at the 4, solid but not special.

[Diesel]

Again, I think you need to look at Coaching too.

Sure he lacks offensive skills. BUT like Marion, the right coaching can find his niche.

I think most of our team is built to run. However, I don't think our coach can teach it. Running requires discipline.. and if it's not defense, Woody can't demand discipline... especially not the discipline of an up-tempo team.

We have found that JJ and JSmoove and Lue are too undisciplined right now. Marvin and CHillz would work beautifully because they have a desire to move without the ball and to actually work for scores. That's at the root of up-tempo... The other two factors are conditioning and rebounding. I think Horf can be that rebounder... and I know we're conditioned. So it gets back to discipline and teaching.. I think Woody has confused getting the ball up the court in a hurry with uptempo... That's far too scatter brained.. You have to master, filling lanes, outlet passes, and overall trust...

We lack that. Because we have not been coached to do that!