Johann

Quote: And don't forget about those 4 blocks. It would take Shelly 2-3 months to get that many! I think it would take Shelly a season to get 4 blocks. They should change his nickname from Landlord to LEADFOOT. He won't be a landlord with Horford around. This is the kind of stuff I don't like. Shelden Williams is starting his second year in the league. Very few come into the league and prosper right away. Physically, he is no leadfoot. He has average hops, above average agility. Not much footspeed, though he is quick. Good wingspan, not a lot of height for a post player. But his problem is standing reach. For someone with his wingspan to have such a low reach, his shoulders have got to be near his waist. All that said, S. Williams is the kind of guy I want on my team. He has said he WANTS to play center. How many undersized guys have you ever heard say that? He hits the weights. Few do that to the point of developing dominating strength, and it looks like Shelden will. He is smart. After seeing players like Speedy and their negative MRI's, I can't see knocking Shelden, who is a man. He had a shoulder brace most of last year. Did he sit? A pulled hamstring this preseason. Did he ask to sit? Last game he busted a hole in the Court, and bled from his head and both elbows. Did he sit? He is not a shotblocker. He has no vertical reach. What he has is darn good strength which will improve, good smarts, and balls. He will not stuff the ball back down Howard's or Aldridge's throat, but when he learns what he's doing at this level, neither of them will get position at their favorite spot. A guy like that plays by using his strength and leverage and timing, and moves guys away from the basket. Wes Unseld was a couple inches shorter than S. Williams, and Wes is in the Hall of Fame. I am thrilled if Al and Acie can translate their games immediately into the NBA - if that is true we are incredibly lucky. But that is rare. Shelden has physical limitations, but he's got heart, and strength. When he gets his game, I think we'll be glad to have him, and I think he will give us good minutes at the 5. Give the kid some time.

K. Thanks. See you tomorrow man.

Quote: Agreed...Shelden needs to dispense with the head fakes. When you have a noggin the size of Shelden's, that is going to throw you off-balance! LOL!

If you sell a stock at the market, you get what the market will offer, not necessarily what you want. My question is, do you want to dump him now for the best offer? I think your responses have already answered that you are not just in the "dump now" camp.

You can't choose between whether you just want to dump him at the market, or wait?

I think center IS the answer for him. My thinking on him turned the other day when I read a quote from Shelden that he WANTS to play center. How many guys want to do that these days? Not JO, not Gasol. It's rough under there, night after night. Lots of elbows in the face. Shelden is the type that may just hurt a few elbows. The guy likes to pump iron. You can't teach that either. Big Ben is one of the few who likes to do that. I leaned toward Foye on draft night, as the most likely to be able to play point, but it wasn't a strong lean, and I was not upset with Shelden. He's got no vertical reach, and is not hugely athletic. It will take him a while to learn to position, and where to position, and to get the timing down. Timing on rebounds is a learned instinct, and just takes a while. I compared Shelden the other day to Wes Unseld. I hope that turns out to be valid. The only thing is, Unseld, though he was shorter than Shelden, came into the league and won rookie of the year AND league MVP his first year. I give SW a pass this year, as a development year. None of the Dookies set the league on fire at first. Coach K must give them definite roles and hold them to it, and those roles don't necessarily translate to the NBA. Shelden is always going to need some help defending longer, more athletic guys. I am hoping Horford and J Smith can provide that help. Longer term (beginning next year) I see Shelden as a better option for starter's minutes at the 5 than ZaZa.

Appreciate your comment but I am really wondering what percent want to trade him for whatever we can get right now. I assume there are lots of players we would trade for the right piece, Shelden Williams certainly included. I want to know how many are giving up on him now. Is it the overwhelming majority, or are just a few throwing a fit right now?

I personally think it's way too early. Sure he was supposed to be NBA-ready, but who really is when they first come in, other than Lebron? I don't know how much stock to put in what Sekou says, but he does this for a living and supposedly has seen more of Shelden's play than any of the posters on this board. Here is what Sekou says: Quote: If anything, the reserves have defined their roles much better than the starters. Al Horford and Shelden Williams have actually played really well off of each other, Horford owning his space on the floor and Williams setting up shop in and around the basket on the regular (though not finishing with the authority you might like). link It's getting to be apparent to me that the internet is the only vent that some groaners and moaners have. Last year it was Marvin Williams that was the great port-a-john, this year it's going to be Shelden Williams.

That is way too funny man

Quote: you are paraphrasing what I was saying last year. the problem in my eyes is Shelden and Woody just don't get along. Well it's just dawning on me, mainly because of the quote from Shelden via Sekou this morning to the effect that Shelden is more comfortable at the 5. Shelden is definitely still in the learning phase, still tentative. A lot of fine players are slow learners. Woody probably let him out of the doghouse after the last month of last season. He will definitely get in the game if he shows some toughness getting position on the defensive end. Is he strong enough to push Shaq away from his comfort spot on offense? Maybe (that's all you can do against Shaq other than foul him). Shelden probably can't cover Dwight, ever, but I am thinking Josh Smith has a shot at doing that, if he puts his mind to it. I think Shelden will improve more this year than Marvin did last year.

quote: for the most part I don't think most regs on this board think Horford is the answer at Center. that's why we need another big butt. FWIW, I am just beginning to think that Shelden Williams will be able to play center in this league. Granted, he is still feeling his way, and plays tentatively now. Most of the Duke guys seem to take a while to get used to the league, or maybe just to other coaching. Shelden is smart, and well coached for four years, as was Shane Battier and Elton Brand. I know he doesn't have a lot of standing reach, nor is he tall. But I saw a lot of him in college, and the guy has grit. He is strong and getting stronger. He is a worker. Wes Unseld had similar qualities. When SW learns what he is doing at this level, I am starting to think, he is going to be good.

Now that's what I'm talking about. That's the kind of thing that could start something. Could be the best thing that's happened to Smoove since the putdown by the dookie on draft night. He's going to think about that one every time he goes to the rim against anyone in practice from here out, and go up with some venom. And practice spills over, doesn't it? Can't be bad for Salim, either. And for the rest of the guys in "Woody's doghouse" whom Wood seems to all but forget about. And Marv, and the rest of the bigs - they don't want to get stuffed by some shrimp, now that Salim has shown it can happen. What about driving on "Rio?" These bigs better watch it.

Dale Ellis was drafted 9th overall in 1983 (I googled it) - higher than I expected.

Dale Ellis

Agree completely about Sean May. The only time I have ever been a UNC fan was the year they won the national championship - I got interested in them that year because of a guy on the UGa board who is diehard UNC (and Georgia stunk bigtime at the time). Through the progression of the year, Sean improved like few players I have ever seen. At the end of the year he took over virtually every game. He definitely got the best of Shelden each time they played. May is pretty gifted athletically for his size, and has great touch on his shot. Mentally he can be a dominant player. He does have a rotund-type tendency in body type, sorta like Sir Charles, so he is going to have to work to keep that in check. If he can get healthy, I think he will challenge for an All Star spot before long. I don't mean to down Shelden. I watched him too. He is very strong, and is willing to hit those weights. Not many NBA players are, and most of the ones that do succeed. Few players enter the league and succeed immediately - I am looking for Shelden to be good at the PF position, and I am willing to give him the same length of time it took Battier to show what he's got. I take Marvin Williams over Adam Morrison any day.

Quote: Can you imagine a system that would lead to more contested jumpers than last year's offensive "system"? We were a perimeter oriented team running a system where we were trying to get those looks out of the half-court. What is worse than that in terms of shot selection? Dammit. My favorite sports teams are the UGa basketball team and the Hawks. Their cycles have been amazingly parallel lately - the absolute pits 3 or 4 years ago, followed by almost imperceptible improvement each year since. Both teams have inexplicable offenses. It is particularly frustrating with the Dawgs because the Harrick (Wooden) half court offense was the most beautiful thing I have ever beheld. Neither Woody nor Dennis Felton HAVE an offensive scheme, apparently. The "plays" they run are to get the ball to the best perimeter shooter and let him shoot; if he is doubled, get it to the next best shooter. There is one token big under the basket. Early in the clock, often the teams are instructed to toss it in to him. Lots of times the pass is intercepted because the big is covered and just stands there (no scheme, no screen). If he catches it, the big just throws it back to the best shooter, because for some inexplicable reason the other team does not just concede the basket to our token big. Am I failing to see something important?

Quote: I just am hesitant to do a mid-season coaching change unless there is some clear upgrade out there I agree with this. I don't want to see another long shot coach at this point, or an upgrade to one with a mediocre record. Larry Brown is hard to get along with and plays grinding defense with a plodding, half-court oriented offense, which as you say hardly seems ideal for our lineup, particularly when you consider his disdain for kids. As long as we're dreaming, though, an intriguing thought is the idea that Phil may be available. Again, would cost the big bucks, and would require ownership resolution probably combined with big-pocket new partner. But given a pipe dream scenario, you wonder if he might be tempted by the collection of young talent on the Hawks. And you would have to hope the night life in ATL would satisfy him. Best case, though, is that Woody (and Marvin and Shelden and Speedy) has a breakout year this year and transforms into what we were hoping for when he was hired. No question, when Woody was hired, he was the hottest commodity in the league among assistant coaches, having just won a ring as the top assistant with the Pistons. Would be great if this were the year the light comes on. If it did, we could thank the ownership fiasco. Most owners would have given up on Woodson by now. These owners have been handcuffed and forced to be "patient" to the extreme.

We have got quite a mix of bigs in the rotation now. Marvin should get a shot at the post rotation. His reach could come in handy when the other guards beat our perimeter. As has been said, ZaZa may do better defensively with fewer minutes and more fouls to give. Shelden should have a healthy right shoulder, will be stronger, and a year more savvy. Ho will be a rookie, but won't have a lot of pressure with all our other bigs in the rotation. Josh Smith will be a year smarter. Plus we have a new bigs coach. If he turns out to be capable, we could see Solo be a Diop-type swatter off the bench. Lots of possibilities for significant improvement in paint defense.

I don't know for sure so call this an educated guess. The handcuff order will stay in place until the appeal process is over, and Belkin will wait until 25 or so days after the last ruling to apply for further appeal. Once he applies, it will take 60 days plus for the next higher court to decide whether to accept the appeal. If they decline, the case will return to the trial court within a week and the order will be lifted. The trial court could enter a new handcuff order at that point, however.

From the sketchy news reports I've heard, the refs he snitched on probably just did normal minor poker or casino gambling. It didn't sound like there will be any more big splash. From what I understand, federal agents first heard Donaghy's name mentioned by mobsters on various wiretaps they were running.

Speaking for those guys, though I am not quite ready to join them: He is a change, maybe the only credible one available. Many here would accept any random HS poster as preferable to the current coach, even a poster they can't stand. Exodus has said he would be content, at present, with Harry the Hawk (though Harry would hardly jeopardize job security like that).

I'm not tired of arguing, but I am getting tired of waiting for practice to start.

Good point, sheed. I hope you run into Salim in some game store or somewhere.

Quote: This whole... debate will be moot if one of those two, Shelden or Horford, can't play the 5. That's the nail on the head right there, that of course is the real issue. I guess we can't debate it because we have no way of knowing, though I think we all suspect that they can't. However, there is a glimmer of hope. Many, many have speculated as to when the basketball gods would consider that the Hawks' godawful karma (apparently earned from keeping babcock in place for years beyond when it was perfectly obvious he had no clue) would finally run out. The Dwight Howard draft? Karma still clearly in place. 2005 draft, 2006 draft? Speedy, Lo signing? You tell me. But this past year's draft... now THERE is a sea change (insert 25 exclamation points). Hawks could have very easily had no picks at all. The Pacers were nosediving and within 1 game of 10th worst in the league with about 8 games left. And the PP balls had to fall just right for us to keep our own pick - just right! Look at what happened. Could be the tide has turned! It just COULD BE one of them can play meaningful minutes at center.