REHawksFan

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

I'll admit to being critical of Garrison a lot but it's pretty obvious why he is playing.  Now that things have regressed to the mean it exposes that we are a very average 3 point shooting team. These are the top 4 who also happen to be 4 of the best teams in the league

Boston has 4 guys >40% and 6 guys shooting better than Bogi from 3.  

Very average indeed.  If we looked at only the Top 6 Hawks by %, they'd still not rank in the Top 4 at 38.35% (would rank just ahead of Phx for 5th).   

We have 3 plays over 40% and they've barely taken 200 shots between them. 

OKC has 8 players that have combined for nearly 1,000 attempts.

Bos has 4 players but they've combined for 1,400 attempts

LAC has 4 players for 1,300 attempts

Min has 4 players for 1,100 attempts

29 minutes ago, AHF said:

Peo - What standard are you using to evaluate whether someone hurts the team?  Is it negative +/- stats or perhaps record with and without that player or something else?  If we're going to go down that path, I want to make sure I understand it and then we can discuss whether that standard makes sense and see how it applies to each player's career.

He's using whatever data point supports his opinion at the moment.  Right now it's win loss record because that's what he thinks says the team is better without Trae.  He never mentioned win loss record until the team went through the recent winning streak without Trae. Doesn't matter that the teams they played were without significant pieces.  That part doesn't prop up his opinion.  

27 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

What’s the one common denominator Peo?

Trae? OO? Bey? Vit? CC’s improved play? Refs calling games differently now? Team adapting to Quin’s system? 

Seems there are a number of factors that could be contributing to me. 

This is 100% accurate. There's a half dozen things (at minimum) that are different over the last month than earlier in the season. 

But certain posters don't want to hear any of that.  

6 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

If you care more about offensive rating than winning games, Trae is your guy. 

If you care more about winning, Trae may be you guy too.

You have to answer the question of WHY they are winning games before you can assert that the team is better without Trae. 

It's an oversimplification (and just false) to just say the team wins more without Trae. 

The W/L record is one component but doesn't tell the whole story. I could say the team wins more when they play G League rosters but that doesn't tell the whole story either. 

19 minutes ago, terrell said:

I like watching them play without him, but I NEVER said we were better off without Trae. I just said yesterday we gonna need his offense in the playin/playoffs. smh

But longterm, Ive always been it's either He or Murray.. Not both.. They're both pg's and the D is a disaster. 

Guilty by association, perhaps.  Although I would swear you have referenced keeping Murray next year, which, is implying trading Trae since you clearly state we can't keep both.  But whatever.

I agree that one likely needs to go due to the defense.  My only question is whether a legit defensive center to protect the paint would mitigate some of the disaster that is a Trae/DJ backcourt.  I like DJ a lot.  I just believe Trae is the better PG and not just by a little.  

15 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

Rather than focusing on one player who has a small chance of being drafted by the Hawks, I’d like to see what your draft big board would be if you ran the Hawks draft room. 

What is your strategy, and what are your player rankings?
 

If we get the Sac pick, I want to come out with at least one C, and one PF or wing. If we only have our own pick, I’d pick best player available among those positions. I’m not looking at any PG, and only SGs big enough to split time at SF. Knecht and Holland are the two smallest players on my board at 6’6” each. 
 

 

Here’s my draft board

First tier (Taking any of these players if we get a pick in the top 10):

Zaccharie Risacher

Position: SG/SF

Size: 6-foot-8, 204 lbs

 

Alexandre Sarr

Position: PF/C

Size: 7-foot-1, 216 lbs

 

Donovan Clingan

Position: C

Size: 7-foot-2, 280 lbs

 

Cody Williams

Position: SF/PF

Size: 6-foot-8, 190 lbs

 

Kyle Filipowski

Position: PF/C

Size: 7-foot-0, 248 lbs

 

Matas Buzelis

Position: SF

Size: 6-foot-8, 209 lbs

 

Second tier (players I’d be happy to walk away from this draft with if any of the top tier players are gone before we pick):

Ron Holland

Position: SF

Size: 6-foot-6, 204 lbs

 

Zach Edey

Position: C

Size: 7-foot-4, 300 lbs

 

Yves Missi

Position: C

Size: 7-foot-0, 235 lbs

 

Kel’el Ware

Position: C

Size: 7-foot-0, 242 lbs

 

Dalton Knecht

Position: SG/SF

Size: 6-foot-6, 204 lbs

 

Johnny Furphy

Position: SF

Size: 6-foot-9, 202 lbs

 

Third tier (Break glass in case of emergency. Only if we have the Sac pick and all the above players have already been selected): 

Tyler Smith

Position: PF

Size: 6-foot-11, 224 lbs

 

Oso Ighodaro

Position: PF/C

Size: 6-foot-11, 235 lbs

 

Ryan Dunn

Position: PF

Size: 6-foot-8, 216 lbs

 

Tristan da Silva

Position: SF/PF

Size: 6-foot-9, 220 lbs

 

Bobi Klintman

Position: SF/PF

Size: 6-foot-8, 215 lbs

 

 

BONUS UDFA target:

Antonio Reeves

Position: SG

Size: 6-foot-6, 195 lbs

I’m calling Reeves after my last pick and try to get him to agree on a contract in case he doesn’t get drafted. If he goes undrafted and agrees to sign, I’m immediately trading Bogi. Reeves is a walking bucket and could easily become our next Crawford/Lemon Pepper/Bogi off the bench beginning in his rookie year. 

You really suggesting we trade Bogi and replace him with a rookie UDFA?  That's a bold strategy considering Bogi has been our most consistent and overall most reliable player for large parts of the season.  

As for the draft, I haven't done a deep dive and don't typically until much closer to the actual draft.  Right now, all I'm committed to is I want a C and a Wing.  

Top choices:

Edey

Clingan

Kenecht

These are the guys I've seen the most and like the most.  I'll reserve the right to replace them with others once I see more.  

58 minutes ago, thecampster said:

come on....you could quite literally call a foul against whomever is guarding Edey every trip down the floor...

This thread needs some honesty. I'll start.

 

Zach Edey has some built in limitations (mobility, outside shooting and that big man fear he's too big for his feet to the take the pounding).

The game is called different against players like Edey who are hacked, undercut, held, hooked on almost every attempt.  When you are going to miss obvious calls that benefit a player, the whistle has to be loose going the other way as well. You can't call every time Edey breathes on someone if you are not going to call the 30 fouls against him that go uncalled every game.

LBJ in his prime got hacked every time drove to the basket.

Shaq used to get hacked all game. 

It's what happens when you are a giant at your position. No one can play you straight up so you get hacked. By nature refs aren't going to call 40 fouls on your defenders. So it's a valid strategy. 

But yeah, the guys that don't like him think he gets away with everything and never gets fouled. LOL

9 hours ago, AHF said:

Agreed and both were bad defenders at their positions.  Fwiw, DJM is shooting just under 47% with Trae this season and just over 45% without him.  (SSS on the games without Trae but getting bigger).  Both good numbers for a guard his size.

 His .560% ts% is a career high by a large margin.  In defense of questioning scoring efficiency, that would probably be the worst ts% of any playoff team’s leading scorer in the league.  (It is worse than every Hawk rotation regular other than Bey this season.)

So I think DJM should be celebrated for hitting a new career best but he has never been a particularly efficient scorer so if you are throwing out the idea of him being our lead guy then consider me suspect of that team’s ceiling (his handle would also concern me for the playoffs).

Exactly. But don't tell some folks this. All that matters is they are winning without Trae so Trae must be the issue. Nevermind that the winning is more a product of Others playing better (Vit,  Dre, Bogi, Clint, and Bruno specifically) than Murray playing better than Trae. 

The winning just fits the general opinion of Trae by some so its a convenient talking point.  Murray being the lead guy on the team is not a recipe for success.  

1 minute ago, terrell said:

Yall care about efficiency now?

Well it was only one of several things I mentioned, but sure, make it about that. 

2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I don't think he has been inefficient overall.  I think he's shooting as much as he is because we are severely short handed.  He's logging a lot of minutes (too many sometimes) and has/had a sore back.  Like Trae he has his own set of flaws and a different skillset from Trae...and that's OK.

 

 

Maybe he's forcing things without Trae. And I'd understand that. But then that begs the question, why would folks think we'd be better off without Trae if this is the Murray we get? 

4 minutes ago, terrell said:

Inefficiency?

He's shooting 46% FG

36% from 3.. 

 

 

Without Trae he's avg 26 pts on 22 shots. Not exactly efficient. 

Just now, benhillboy said:

I love it.  Bogi is smart enough to challenge him.

Great team win tho.  I always enjoyed the team energy without Trae, most notably road blowouts a few years ago against healthy Grizzlies and Nuggets squads.  It’s always been obvious they play with a chip when he sits.  The all time winning percentage without him has finally crept above the winning clip with him (.454 to .452). 

Which of course has little to do with Trae but I don't expect you to admit that. LOL

1 minute ago, Nash said:

DJM 17pts on 17 shots and Bogi 20 pts on 7 shots.  I don't know if Quin is forcing Murray to shoot regardless of his efficiency or he shoots just because he can lol

His inefficiency, poor handles, and avg passing is why it's insane fir certain folks to claim DJ is the better option of the 2. Absolutely freaking insane. 

He can be a really good scorer and he's capable as a ball handler,  but being capable is not the same as being elite. Trae is elite. 

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

It's simple - defend at the level of the screen and then hustles back to the paint.  It also requires his teammates to hedge the roller giving him time to get back.  Timing and understanding of roles.

Well he does it a lot more aggressively than OO or Clint do. It's noticeable with Bruno.

1 minute ago, hylndr11 said:

bruno all over the place holding up at the perimeter affecting passing before dropping back, hes moving well and with purpose it is effecting the bulls

Noticed him doing that the last several games. He overplays the ball at the top and then rushes back to the lane. Seems to keep the offe se from getting going. 

Not a ton of passing when DJ is running the show. Same for Hunter. 

JJ makes a huge difference for this team. His length amd ball handling is very helpful. 

And Vit, what can you say? If they keep leaving him open he gotta keep making them pay. 

Also loving what Bruno has become. His energy and toughness is something we sorely need. 

Ooh....and Kobe with the pesky hands is fun to see as well. 

2 hours ago, AHF said:

His ft% is the biggest reason to have some optimism there.  A lot of bigs aren’t allowed to shoot jumpers in college because the coach wants them shooting inside.  We’ve got video of him draining practice jumpers but that doesn’t mean nearly as much to me as free throws shot in a game.  Defensive issues are a bigger concern for me than the potential to extend his range.

The FT% was my only point here.  I haven't seen clips of him shooting 3s or anything.  But I have read that Painter won't let him shoot 3s in games, which makes some sense.  I just don't get the argument that if a 5 hasn't shot 3s in college then it must mean he CAN'T shoot 3s in the NBA.  We just have plenty of examples that say otherwise.  

And his FT stroke looks good to me.  Seems natural with a nice arc on it which makes me think it can translate to longer shots (although I'm no shooting coach).  

3 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

How? How do we know the sky isn’t red? We see it.   That’s how playa!  

Sorry Spud but that's BS. You would have said the same about Brook Lopez, AL Horford, OO, JC, KAT, etc...

None of them showed you anything in college and all have proven - to one degree or another - to be capable 3pt threats in the NBA.

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Here we go!

 

 

What's Trae's timeline? It's been 4 weeks right?

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 You're grading on the very low end of the curve if you're giving Quin an A.  

That means that no matter what this team did, he was going to get the benefit of the doubt and get a high grade for "player development."  That's what we said LP's role was.  Quin was brought here to win, and not be a player development coach.

Quin could've already elevated OO to the starting center spot over Clint. He also could've played him more minutes at the 4 beside Capela, to shore up our rebounding issues and expand OOs game even more.  But he didnt.

Instead, he's opted to play small ball and emphasize spacing, with a team that isn't tough and not a high shooting 3 point percentage team.

He consistently played Bey out of position and gave him the green light to shoot, despite brick after brick being shot by him.

We gave minutes to Trent Forest instead of letting Bufkin get spot minutes with the big team.

We've seen AJ go from a promising piece of the future last season ( under Nate ), to a guy who can barely hit the floor under Quin.

Bruno, until everyone got hurt, was locked onto the bench, even when we lost Jalen in December. The one guy that could bring some energy and toughness to the frontline, wasn't even thought about until damn near the entire frontline got hurt.

Defensively, this team was a sham, in part to Quin's player rotations and defensive philosophy.

At best, Snyder gets a C+ for his coaching this season.

It would've just been a solid C, if not for our defensive minded role players and the stellar play of DJ, keeping the team afloat in March.

I think your argument against him is pretty biased. 

So you think player development was supposed to stop after LP? What about JJ? What about the other young guys who have developed? 

The record sux and the defense sucked all year. But I'd remind you that it wasn't til this past summer that Quin put in any of his own offense or schemes. 

And I'd also remind you that we started the year with 8 legit NBA players along with Kobe and AJ. AJ has been out all year for personal reasons. And Kobe is a rookie. 

Of the 8 legit NBA players, they all been healthy together for something like 15 games all season. 

Roster construction and injuries are why the record sux. Not coaching 

There's always going to be arguments against any coach's rotations and stuff. That's a personal preference thing. But all considered, Quin has been solid in year 1. 

I'd give him a solid B. 

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Soon to be Atlanta Hawks legend

 

If he actually goes in the lottery, he may not be on the board when the Hawks pick. I'm expecting Hawks to be in the playoffs.

And then he does that. LOL