hawkman

Well, eveyone is entitled to their opinion. I just don't know if Marvin is the answer. He has the tools to be that second guy but not the mentality. It was once said that it is much easier to tune an aggressive player down than to make a passive player more aggressive. Marvin seems to be a jump shooter by nature who is perfectly comfortable with the catch and shoot game. He seems a little out of control when he tries to slash and he doesn't have the upper body strength to finish in traffic. Maybe the second scoring option should be Salim, he seems to be a natural scorer. He can score in a variety of ways and is also a decent free throw shooter. Maybe we should give it some thought.

I think that the cause of the frustration around here is the fact that the team was supposed to be "complete" this season and ready to compete for the playoffs. When the wheels start to fall off, people get a little antsy and everything/everyone on the team gets scrutinized. Nobody wants a repeat of the last few seasons, especially when we feel that we have a better team now. Everyone gets frustrated, and everyone feels that they know the reason for our lack of success. Speedy's injuries, Shelden's production, Marvin's play relative to CP's/Deron's , Woodson's coaching, JSmith's inconsistency, and all things BK are fair game. It's a shame that we argue so much, as we all want the same thing: A WINNING TEAM. We all just just have different ideas as to how that can or should be accomplished.

Hmmmmm. There just happens to be this player from Philly who can do all of what you mentioned. And he's available for relatively cheap too.

Quote: Quote: Quote: Quote: He's been in the league long enough to make that call. Prominent NBA vets have been doing this for years. It's no different than us trading Al to Indiana. He made the choice of where he wanted to go and we made the trade accordingly. If we can do that for Al who was with us for only a few years(and very limited success), can't the Sixers do the same for Iverson? seriously. you cannot condone this type of bad behavior. athletes are role models whether they like it or not. this poses as a horrible example to the inner city children who idolize Allen Iverson. Allen's behavior says to me it's ok to not go to work because I do not like my boss. Do you know how many people quit their jobs eveyday because they do not like their boss? Let me put this in layman's terms. He did not like Mo Cheeks as his boss(coach). He wants a transfer(trade). He wants a transfer(trade) to a place of his choosing just like any other employee would want(and have received in the past). Iverson is responsible for any success that Philly has had in recent years whether you like him personally or not. He is what he is, and I respect that. I'm tired of face-men and "image guys". As far as him being a role model, blame society's screwed up values for putting a guy who puts an orange ball through a hoop for a living on a pedestal without any consideration for the "man inside". Now what if Garnett wanted to be traded to a "title contender?" like people have been suggesting lately. Does that make him a bad person? What's wrong with a guy wanting to control his own future? We do it everyday you should look into becoming a life coach. i think you would make a good one. pro·fes·sion·al·ism / Pronunciation[pruh-fesh-uh-nl-iz-uhm] –noun 1. professional character, spirit, or methods. 2. the standing, practice, or methods of a professional, as distinguished from an amateur. Iverson's behavior is not only amateurish, it's bush league. I can't be a life coach as I am personally too erratic and undisciplined It seems like this thing with you and Iverson is about more than his professionalism. It sounds personal. And you konw what? That's your business. A lot of people made up their minds about the guy before he entered college anyway. He's not exactly my cup of tea either. I would expect any player earning a paycheck to practice with his teamates. But if him deciding where he wants to work for the remaining years of his career is "bush league" and amateurish, than every working man and woman in this country is "bush league" and amateurish. The NBA is a business and you have to go where you think you can succeed.

Quote: Quote: He's been in the league long enough to make that call. Prominent NBA vets have been doing this for years. It's no different than us trading Al to Indiana. He made the choice of where he wanted to go and we made the trade accordingly. If we can do that for Al who was with us for only a few years(and very limited success), can't the Sixers do the same for Iverson? seriously. you cannot condone this type of bad behavior. athletes are role models whether they like it or not. this poses as a horrible example to the inner city children who idolize Allen Iverson. Allen's behavior says to me it's ok to not go to work because I do not like my boss. Do you know how many people quit their jobs eveyday because they do not like their boss? Let me put this in layman's terms. He did not like Mo Cheeks as his boss(coach). He wants a transfer(trade). He wants a transfer(trade) to a place of his choosing just like any other employee would want(and have received in the past). Iverson is responsible for any success that Philly has had in recent years whether you like him personally or not. He is what he is, and I respect that. I'm tired of face-men and "image guys". As far as him being a role model, blame society's screwed up values for putting a guy who puts an orange ball through a hoop for a living on a pedestal without any consideration for the "man inside". Now what if Garnett wanted to be traded to a "title contender?" like people have been suggesting lately. Does that make him a bad person? What's wrong with a guy wanting to control his own future? We do it everyday

He's been in the league long enough to make that call. Prominent NBA vets have been doing this for years. It's no different than us trading Al to Indiana. He made the choice of where he wanted to go and we made the trade accordingly. If we can do that for Al who was with us for only a few years(and very limited success), can't the Sixers do the same for Iverson?

Quote: WOW that is so [censored] HORRIBLE you wanna give up TWO young prospects for aging iverson? zaza is a top 20 center already and only will improve over the next few years marvin has the potential to be a star speedy helps us GREATLY with our defense when healthy and u wanna trade all that for 2 years of iverson; maybe making 1st/2nd round and then be without any pg or centers and lose our forward depth? no thanks If you don't like that trade, how about switching out Pachulia for Lorenzen? As far as Marv goes I've heard a lot of talk but have seen very liitle so far. When your claim to fame is a 26 point effort during garbage time or averaging 23 points during summer league, that's not saying a lot. If that was really an indication of "superstar potential", Dion Glover, Salim Stoudamire, and Dorell Wright have just as much potential. He will be a good player but not a superstar, at least not without an attitude adjustment. Speedy IS good for the team when/if he plays that day. Unfortunately he hasn't played much, and when he does play, he's not there in the fourth when we really need him. Iverson would bring consistency to the PG slot. Whoever else we bring in that trade(Hunter maybe?) would also contribute right away. It just seems that there are too many positives to this trade to just disregard it as nonsense. Once again, this is all theoretical so don't get yourt panties in a bunch.

Less talk more IVERSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just kidding. It won't happen, but I have to admit that I'm all for it. Our team as it sits now seems like it was already built with him in mind anyway. JJ and Salim are the only two players on this team that can create their own shots. Smoove and Chill are the "do-it-all" utility types. Shelden is the blue collar defensive type that can bruise and snag rebounds in the middle. JJ is the perfect backcourt mate to Iverson due to his passing and ball handling ability. Iverson would bring an exciting, explosive scorer to pair with JJ. We're not going to get that dominant defensive presence any time soon so why not just outscore our opponents?

Quote: That's 3 of our starters, Philly would have: Pg - Speedy SG - Igoudala SF - Marvin PF - Webber C - Pachulia Philly would look awesome after the trade. PG: Iverson SG: Joe SF: Smoove PF: Shelden C: Solomon/Wright We would still be thin inside with that line-up. Philly wont get a deal better than that, not even close. What did Orlando receive for T-MAC??? Ariza What did Lakers get for Shaq?? Odom What did Pacers get for Artest? nada, AL If you trade a superstar that is in his 30's and haven't won a thing you aren't going to get a fair value. Same goes for T-Wolves and KG. Actually, it looks like a wash. We get a prolific scorer and Philly gets a decent center/power forward and a player who may be good down the road in Marvin. Speedy probably wouldn't play enough to matter. Their interior D would stink with that lineup though. We'd be back searching for another stiff to play center for us. That has to be easier than trying to find a starting PG. Philly would have to search for a PG to fill in while Speedy's knees are bothering him. Marvin would get a chance to start right away. A lot of people seem to hate on Pachulia anyway so why not? We'd make the playoffs and get beaten in the second round as opposed to barely getting in and getting swept in the first. It'll never happen anyway so why bother.

To be honest, Marvin doesn't need our support, at least not as far as this theoretical argument is concerned. He will be just fine. Afterall, he will always be a #2 draft pick. Heck, even Darko is still highly regarded and he has shown very little so far. Besides, this is not about dissing Marv as much as it is about questioning the decisions of the GM and organization. I see nothing wrong with that. BTW, Lebron and Wade were can't miss prospects. I watched Wade in college and he was every bit as exciting as he is now. The same applies to Lebron out of high school. I honestly can't say that Marvin was dominating on the college level. I hope Marvin does well now that he's here, but that still doesn't mean that drafting him wasn't a mistake. It's going to take a lot more than what I've seen so far to change my mind about that.

Quote: Quote: I can't beleive we've still got people so wrapped up in this Paul over Williams draft. There is one statement that can sum up why that draft was not some horrible GMing by Billy that everyone makes it seem: EVERYONE AND THEIR MAMA HAD MARVIN OVER PAUL AND HE'S ONLY PLAYED ONE GAME THIS YEAR. It wasn't just BK, you could have your pick of any GM in the freakin NBA and almost all of them would have done the same. So why should he be bashed for something the rest would have done? You gonna fire him and hire someone who would have done the same damn thing? The argument based on STRICTLY HINDSIGHT is null and void because the same people arguing how bad it was wanted Marvin too (yes i know there are some of you exceptions out there). Exactly...You would think BK well out on his own and picked Marvin from Central Middle Tennesse State or something. He was considered the best all around talent in the draft and all the so-call draft experts had hime going 1 or 2. Yeah, that's cool and all but we really needed a Point Guard. We had enough Small Forwards at the time. Dumb pick period. This will probably be argued as long as there's anyone who doesn't believe that this was a bad pick. Between the two forums I frequent, there seems to be a "Glad we didn't get Paul" thread posted from time to time. I usually just ignore them, but I can't anymore. The thought that someone can really believe that we made the right choice looking back really irritates me. It's even more irritating to see the irrelavent stats that are posted to support such a bullcrap argument. Sorry for the rant

Like I said earlier, we overthought the pick. We bring a prospect in and he blew everyone away during his workout. He just happened to be a PG. We needed a PG. Draft night comes and we draft a Small Forward. We allowed the "talking heads" to talk us out of making the obvious pick. We start Ivey at the point with Lue backing him up. Everyone moans about the logjam at Forward and that Al should be traded to "make room" for Marvin. At the same time, we have no depth at PG so we pick up Anthony Grundy. Now what doesn't add up here? We have a logjam at Forward but have to sign a PG from the NBDL after a draft that was LOADED with top tier talent at that position??? We created a problem at Forward and failed to address the problem at Point Guard. I'm no basketball genius nor am I paid to be one but this is not a decision a competent GM would make. Once again, I'm not against Marvin personally as he will be a good player in this league. I just don't see him as a superstar type player(which would have justified this pick). He just doesn't stike me as a Carmelo or Lebron type of basketball prodigy. Time will tell I guess.

Quote: That line of thinking is why Portland drafted Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan. You don't ignore superstar ability just to fill a need. OK. Fair enough. But, what if, by drafting a PG in last year's draft you could both fill a need and have a player with superstar ability? Hmmmmm.

Quote: I can't beleive we've still got people so wrapped up in this Paul over Williams draft. There is one statement that can sum up why that draft was not some horrible GMing by Billy that everyone makes it seem: EVERYONE AND THEIR MAMA HAD MARVIN OVER PAUL AND HE'S ONLY PLAYED ONE GAME THIS YEAR. It wasn't just BK, you could have your pick of any GM in the freakin NBA and almost all of them would have done the same. So why should he be bashed for something the rest would have done? You gonna fire him and hire someone who would have done the same damn thing? The argument based on STRICTLY HINDSIGHT is null and void because the same people arguing how bad it was wanted Marvin too (yes i know there are some of you exceptions out there). As far as numbers go, here ya go. 2005 draft, shoulda woulda couldas: Fran Vazquez Yaroslav Korolev Antoine Wright Maxiel drafted over players like Hakim Warrick and David Lee 2004 draft, shoulda woulda couldas: shaun livingston over devin harris luke jackson (10th pick) over everyone below him such as josh smith, jr smith, jameer nelson, al jefferson 2003 draft, should woulda couldas: Darko over Anthony, Bosh, and Wade moral of story, GM's aren't going to be perfect every time. But if they are solid to very good and don't do something moronic like pick Renaldo Balkman that high, then they aren't bad. If anything BK has been AT THE VERY LEAST one of the better drafting GMs in the league. Paul came into the league and tore it up beyond EVERY SINGLE GM'S EXPECTATIONS, even the couple that might have drafted him over Marvin. This so stupid that the media and fans keep talking about this. Get over it! This does not define our team nor does it define the skill level or success that BK has had. Hey! I like Renaldo Balkman. Great BBall IQ. Kinda reminds me of a poor man's Scottie Pippen

Quote: Marvin wasn't THAT far ahead of Paul and Deron. I agree most GM's had Marvin over them, but it was based on potential alone, he was pretty much unproven in college. You don't draft another SF when you already had 2 good young ones like Chill and Smith (AND Diaw), not to mention we still had Harrington. And especially considering our GLARING need at PG. I just don't see how it's so inconceivable that Paul wouldn't be a good player. I admit I wasn't that high on Deron, I actually really liked Felton too. But Paul had a good shot, was a great passer, is super quick, and was a league leader in steals. It's not like Marvin had a Melo like freshman year, he came off the bench and scored 10 ppg, Mike Mercer did that last year. I agree he has a pretty good shot and the TOOLS to be a great player, but he was based on potential alone and we already had SO much of that on our roster. BTW I don't think that most other GM's would have drafted Marvin over Paul if they were in BK's situation. I remember RIGHT AFTER the draft people were questioning the pick. Almost EVERY mock draft I saw had us picking Paul. I also remember an interview with Paul and he even THOUGHT he was going to Atlanta because he had a great workout here. Marvin, on the other hand, came in almost an inch shorter than reported and was out of shape when he worked out. All that being said, I like Marvin and am rooting for him to be great, and I also know that it is expected for him to take a few years to realize his potential. But at this point it was a bad pick. Exactly. I hate the fact that we had this philosophy to draft purely on potential at what has to be the most inconvenient time in our franchise's recent history. We needed a PG. We worked out a PG. That PG had the best workout of any prospect that we brought in. Then we drafted the player who had an "OK" workout, but seemed to have "potential". I don't care what any talking head had to say about this draft, BK...WE NEEDED A POINT GUARD!!!! A point guard came in highly decorated and heralded and then proceeded to ace the workout. That same point guard was available in the draft when it was your time to pick. What do you do??? Duh, pick another SF because we we want to, and I quote, "deal from a position of strength". UNBELIEVEABLE!!! Heck, for the sake of argument, let's throw out this whole Marv vs. CP3 thing altogether. That still leaves us with 3...count 'em...3 point guards that could have run this team for the next ten years. How in the world do you blow that and call yourself a GM?!?!?! This whole Marv vs. Paul thing isn't even an argument. It shouldn't even be up for debate until Marv does better than the 8ppg and 5reb's he averaged last season. As it stands now, it was a mistake and any debate otherwise is laughable. With that said I hope Marvin becomes all that everyone hopes he will become because I sincerely believe the Hawks' future as a franchise is tied to that pick.

Quote: I think Marvin will eventually be a better player than both of them as well. In comparing Deron and CP though, I think the systems may have some effect on their play respectively as well. CP seems to be the focal point of the New Orleans offense, where as Deron is simply part of a terrific pick and roll tandem with the focus being more on Carlos Boozer. I will agree that Deron is a far better defender at the point guard position, and he definitely fit the style that I believe Mike Woodson would prefer to run in Atlanta which is more half court and defense oriented. I hope your right about Marvin for BK's and the Hawks' sakes. Right now, this looks like one of the biggest blunders by the Hawks organization outside of the Nique trade. Sometimes, I think that you can overthink a draft to the point that you question the unquestionable(see Vince Young and the Texans). We went into that draft with a glaring need and the resources to fill that need were present throughout the first round. Inexplicably, we failed to draft a PG and instead grabbed another SF. How is that even possible?!?!? Do you realize how well this team would be doing right now with one of those PG's from that draft? I can't understand the reasoning of some on this board. This can't be explained away with team stats. It was a mistake pure and simple. Paul/Deron/Felton/Jack were/are the answers to our continuing problems at PG. We had the chance to groom a high quality PG to grow with this young team and we blew it.

Good points. It doesn't take a genius to see what we should have done in last year's draft. I don't need to look at stats to see who means more to their team(s). Even if we didn't pick up a Paul or Deron in that draft, we should have done more to get a Jack or Felton. Marv has a lot of tools but so does JSmith/Childress. It's good to have depth at different positions(at least that's the justification for picking Marvin), but why haven't we addressed depth at the PG position? Sounds kinda hypocritical to me. You're right on in your observations Smoovethefuture. I'll use a football analogy to explain this situation--Call a fumble a fumble. If you have to look at the replay over and over again to try to call it otherwise, it's a FUMBLE!!!--We fumbled in last years draft. It happened and there's nothing we can do about it. Just make sure it doesn't happen again BK.

Quote: Did you hear a rumor that Minny was interested? No, not just interested. Iverson was quoted as saying that he hoped the deal would be finalized soon. This was all being reported during the first half of this Washington/Philly game.

It would have been nice if we could have been in on this, even if we didn't actually get him. I feel that it would have given the team and the city a "shot in the arm" despite how others on this forum might feel about AI. It seems like they would trade him for a bag of basketballs(from last season of course) right now and I say that is to our advantage.

Minnesota!?!?!?! Unbelievable!!!!!

Quote: AI was just sent home it was reported on ESPN so there may be a deal in the works now. Or, more likely, AI is so fed up he told them he wouldn't play anymore and wanted an immediate trade. The 76ers said that he would also sit out Saturday night's game. Philly appears to have a gun to their heads and they will probably not get what they want (close to equal value) because they have no more time. So, somebody is likely to get him at a reasonable price. If the Hawks could get him on the cheap (one player, Speedy, #1) I think it is worth the risk just to see if it works out. If they have to give up or mortgage more than one key player then no deal. My sense is we aren't in the mix and I have a gut feel he is headed to the Nuggets or Warriors, both who have the pieces and salaries to get it done. Nellie wants to run and he wants no more of Murphy, Dunleavy, Foyle, or possible O'Bryant. If they threw in Monta Ellis into a deal they could get him. Denver has JR Smith and Andre Miller and Smith's value has grown immensely. It will be interesting and it likely will be quick because having AI no longer even playing is bad for everybody. Are you watching the game on ESPN tonight?!?! Are you hearing this?!?! They mentioned that we were in talks to trade for AI this past offseason. I wonder what we offered them or what they wanted from us to make us pursue Speedy instead? Anyway, the Sixers have NO more leverage. They've tipped their hand and anyone in need of a superstar on the cheap will be calling. I couldn't believe how candid their chairman was in that interview with Lisa Salter. He actually stated that Iverson will NOT play another game in a Sixer uniform!

Quote: just say no to Darius. Him and Josh Smith do NOT get along. In the addidas games they argued because Darius wouldnt pass the ball. i'm intrigued by pops(if he's available) or pittsnogle. Now I did watch that when it came on FSN. His relationship with JSmith would be a concern. But we do need another guard badly though.

Stats aside, I remember watching him play at Memphis and he was a decent distributor. I don't know how easy it's going to be to find a defensive/pass first PG at this point in the season. It wouldn't hurt to give the guy a ten day and see what he can do.

AI gets to much of a bad rap. He plays hard EVERY night and actually is more of a team player than he is given credit for. This wouldn't be another JR Rider situation. He would have an immediate impact on the team offensively and we would definitely make the playoffs for the next couple of years. We would also have the most devastating backcourt (ever???). If we are a potential trading partner with Philly though, BK needs to play hardball with them as we are already a much improved team. It wouldn't hurt to try bringing him in. Besides, his contract will be up by the time he begins to wear out his welcome in the ATL. I would balk at sending them JSmith or Childress though.

Find Darius Washington and sign him. NOW!