Lascar78 Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Quote: What isn't gained by trading MW for Shawn Livingston? Why do you keep bringing that up as your example. Most people here would do that, I certainly would. He's a guy with as much potential, who fits a need. The fact is they are not offering that and they wouldn't take it if we offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted June 13, 2006 Premium Member Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 MW is not a cheif cornerstone of the franchise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzachary Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Quote: What isn't gained by trading MW for Shawn Livingston? We get an equal talent, remain long and athletic, fill a position of need, and open up space for Childress and JS. Moreover, in this draft we would have less qualms about whom to select, having less needs to address.[/qupte] I bet BK would do that. It's part of his philosophy. What I consider 'abandoning the BK philosophy' would be something akin to BK losing his job, a new GM being hired who decides to jettison all of our talent and try to build a Pistons clone. [quote[i'm assuming you believe we did blow it by not drafting Paul you just don't see the advantage in stating so. Fair enough then. I hope whether or not BK is "stating it" that he knows just how much he blew it and can address the obvious fears of ownership. I fear, however, he doesn't and can't. The understandably leery ownership is stepping in to make sure he does on some level. Unfortunately, when ownership does that it is only more scary. From what we can tell right now, and I would wager we'll ALWAYS know, yes, we didn't pick the best player. Do I think BK should be excoriated for this? No, absolutely not. He took someone that was considered the be the best chance of becoming a superstar, but who was known would not make an immediate impact -- something very different from sputtering. Stating otherwise is revisionist history. I don't think it's a fireable offense. I also think it's difficult to blame BK for not getting deals done when our ownership is a neverending soap opera. It's got to increase the difficulty tenfold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted June 13, 2006 Premium Member Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 You do know that if Paul continues toward Isiah status and MW continues to Darius Miles Status, BK will have that hung around his neck like a millstone. That being the fact that he passed up Paul. so now while it's early and there's style a lot of hope and hype going on, it's easy to say BK shouldn't be berated for the choice... but as time goes on and the play of these two guys become more and more evident... I think minds will change about the pick and the people involved. It's like when Babcock picked Roy Marble and proclaimed him the next MJ... People waited until they could see that Marble was a sucker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzachary Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Quote: You do know that if Paul continues toward Isiah status and MW continues to Darius Miles Status, BK will have that hung around his neck like a millstone. That being the fact that he passed up Paul. so now while it's early and there's style a lot of hope and hype going on, it's easy to say BK shouldn't be berated for the choice... but as time goes on and the play of these two guys become more and more evident... I think minds will change about the pick and the people involved. It's like when Babcock picked Roy Marble and proclaimed him the next MJ... People waited until they could see that Marble was a sucker. Should the GMs of the Bucks and Jazz also lose their jobs dependent on Paul's success? And why is MW 'continuing to Darius Miles status?' Should every GM who passed on Josh Howard be fired? And every GM who passed on Tony Parker? And every GM who passed on, dare I say it, Boris Diaw? Explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Final_quest Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 I read that about 6 teams passed on Paul. I guess two other could have traded up and didn't. Utah, Atlanta, Milwaukee, and Portland are 4 at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLBob Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Can't we just agree to banish the MW over CP argument to the moon for a while? Yes, in retrospect, Chris Paul was quite possibly a better fit for the Atlanta Hawks last year. Yes, we still need a PG. Yes, we have a glut of small forwards. Those fairly obvious statements out of the way, however, there wasn't a GM in the league that had CP above MW on their draft board. Period. We're they all idiots? I mean, how in the hell did they even land their jobs? Come on, there exists no evidence to suggest that 19-yr-old Marvin Williams (and yes, I do know that he will turn 20 in a few days) won't someday become the player that most, actually damn near all, scouts and GM's believed that he will become leading up to last year's draft. The kid's a stud. He's humble. He's coachable. He wants to be great. It was, quite simply, a pick for the future. Would we have been better off last season with CP? YES. Would we still have been better off with CP in 5 years? MAYBE. Impossible to ascertain at this point in time. We all know that MW ain't LBJ, but comparing him to Darius Miles, or whoever the hell the comparison was to, is just asinine. P.S. If anyone suggests trading MW on this forum in the near future for anything less than one the league's elite players under 24 yrs old (which is a ridiculously small pool), just go ahead and assume that I already called you an f-ing imbecile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzachary Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Quote: Can't we just agree to banish the MW over CP argument to the moon for a while? Yes, in retrospect, Chris Paul was quite possibly a better fit for the Atlanta Hawks last year. Yes, we still need a PG. Yes, we have a glut of small forwards. Those fairly obvious statements out of the way, however, there wasn't a GM in the league that had CP above MW on their draft board. Period. We're they all idiots? I mean, how in the hell did they even land their jobs? Come on, there exists no evidence to suggest that 19-yr-old Marvin Williams (and yes, I do know that he will turn 20 in a few days) won't someday become the player that most, actually damn near all, scouts and GM's believed that he will become leading up to last year's draft. The kid's a stud. He's humble. He's coachable. He wants to be great. It was, quite simply, a pick for the future. Would we have been better off last season with CP? YES. Would we still have been better off with CP in 5 years? MAYBE. Impossible to ascertain at this point in time. We all know that MW ain't LBJ, but comparing him to Darius Miles, or whoever the hell the comparison was to, is just asinine. P.S. If anyone suggests trading MW on this forum in the near future for anything less than one the league's elite players under 24 yrs old (which is a ridiculously small pool), just go ahead and assume that I already called you an f-ing imbecile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLBob Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Just for clarity, I mean the best players 24 relative to all other players under 24. Not elite period. Understandably a separate category. I.e. I would consider a proposed MW for Livingston, one of the brighter young PG's in the game, trade a legitimate discussion, although I seriously doubt I would pull that trigger. A proposed MW trade for a 2006 pick/picks: ridiculous, go away. Ditto MW for K-Mart. Just for clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Quote: Come on, there exists no evidence to suggest that 19-yr-old Marvin Williams (and yes, I do know that he will turn 20 in a few days) won't someday become the player that most, actually damn near all, scouts and GM's believed that he will become leading up to last year's draft. Actually there is plenty of evidence that says he won't become the player he was projected to be. Go look up PER of Marvin (12.2) and look it up to other comparable players his age. You will notice its less than such greats as Darius Miles, Eddy Curry, Eddie Griffin, and Brendan Haywood. There is plenty of other evidence, but to say there is no evidence is just foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exodus Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Quote: P.S. If anyone suggests trading MW on this forum in the near future for anything less than one the league's elite players under 24 yrs old (which is a ridiculously small pool), just go ahead and assume that I already called you an f-ing imbecile. LOL dude you don't know what you just walked into. During the season the Marvin bashing and Paul worship was constant. Just go look at some old posts. Walter and Diesel will bring this up again and again. Diesel will propose trading Marvin almost every day and Walter will be right behind him, bashing Marvin in threads that have nothing to do with marvin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB21 Posted June 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Finally. Someone other than me with an intelligent post on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teeareess Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Quote: Why do you keep bringing that up as your example. Most people here would do that, I certainly would. He's a guy with as much potential, who fits a need. The fact is they are not offering that and they wouldn't take it if we offered. Exactly. Why would LA consider that trade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted June 13, 2006 Premium Member Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Quote: Should the GMs of the Bucks and Jazz also lose their jobs dependent on Paul's success? And why is MW 'continuing to Darius Miles status?' It's dependent on how their draft choices turn out. Notice that people jump all over PTL because they Passed Up Jordan. Hell, Houston passed up Jordan too. The difference was PTL took Sam Bowie while Houston took Hakeem. If Bogut turns out to be an Allstar, Milwaukee will get a pass. If Deron turns out to be just an Average PG ... Utah's GM will be run across the coals with BK.. Mainly because he gave up so much to get Deron and passed over Paul. But BK will be Berated because of Marvin but Mainly because Marvin duplicated talent that we already had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted June 13, 2006 Premium Member Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 The problem young bob is that a GM has to go on more than just Heresay and Speculation. A GM has to go on what he sees in person.. One of my main problems with Marvin is that it is reported that he had Bad workouts with both Us and Milwaukee and those were the only two workouts that he had. Not only that, but those of us who follow college basketball will note that in Big games, Marvin didn't show up. If you were playing Iowa State, Sure Marvin would have a good game.. However what did he do against MSU (2 points), what did he do against Illinois? What did he do against GT? So what's the basis for picking him? Is it Hype? Is it the fact that he fits a size requirement that BK likes? If it's not the workout or his college career.. what is it? His High School playing days? And fans are like nonhunting dogs, if you point them in the direction, they will run that way. That's why so many are still trying to wait on the likes of Tyson Chandler and Eddy Curry and Darius Miles. Fans will buy the hype... So young Bob.. If he's such a stud... He has to prove it. Unfortunately, it looks like we're going to destroy the personnell of our team to try to prove that he was the right guy. So here's the question... When you make a mess, do you spend all of your efforts trying to hide it and say " I didn't make a mess".. or do you spend all of your efforts trying to clean it up? For the next few years, just notice which of these the Hawks do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lascar78 Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Quote: MW is not a cheif cornerstone of the franchise... I never said that, of course he is. So is JJ, but if san antonio offers Duncan for him, I take it. Just because you're one of our true core pieces doesn't make you untradable. If you're not the very best player in the entire league, you're not untradable. I put MW and Livingston as equals in terms of potential and how good I expect them to be. Both can be true stars. If I can swap a potential star at a position where we have plenty of depth for a potential star at a position where we have no one, I do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drzachary Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Quote: I never said that, of course he is. So is JJ, but if san antonio offers Duncan for him, I take it. Just because you're one of our true core pieces doesn't make you untradable. If you're not the very best player in the entire league, you're not untradable. And even then you can be traded for financial or personal reasons! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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