JJ or Smoove?

[RMJ]

Who's more important to Atlanta's future success?

[PureGreatness]

joe johnson

close thread.

[capstone21]

JJ!

Smith will never be the first option.

[Iman]

This is a much closer decision than people seem to think. Fortunately I don't think we are currently at the point where we have to make that decision. However, it may come down to extending Horford or JJ and in that case by that time I'd probably take Horford.

JJ is our best player and first option but as our other players improve, I think he'll be replaceable. His salary is probably consistent with his skill but it's not like he's a great value. He completely carried us late the last season and through some of those playoff games but as Hotlanta would say, he hasn't carried us to being good.

So overall, I'd say that for our future the next year or two, JJ is the most important Hawk. For the real longterm future, Horford or Smoove is the most important, then Marvin or Acie, then JJ. Just think how tricky the decision would be if we had drafted better and had Brandon Roy or Monta Ellis or even Kelena Azubuike and consider replacing JJ with one of those guys that were already on our roster. In that case, JJ would be gone, hopefully traded for a center.

[crimedog]

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Who's more important to Atlanta's future success?

I'm not sure what this question is asking or what you intend to show us.

Who is more important? Well as of today its Smith without a doubt because JJ is already signed to a contract and has probably (but not definitely) leveled off as a player. Smith's departure could mean a lot more to the team than anything else that could happen over the next few years and could be even more significant to the franchise' future than when we signed JJ. Smith also hasn't tapped out his potential so you could say that our upper limit as a team really depends on how good Smith can become (his athleticism and skillset could push him into the upper limits of NBA talent).

If you are asking who the most important player is on a game by game basis, its probably JJ because he is the focal point of our offense and finding elite offensive players is probably harder than finding elite defensive ones.

Smith is definitely better now than JJ was when we signed him though, if thats what you are getting at.

[Traceman]

To say that Smoove is DEFINITELY better than a guy who gave us 20 ppg, 4 rbg and 7 apg while being double teamed the whole game is saying a LOT.

[crimedog]

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To say that Smoove is DEFINITELY better than a guy who gave us 20 ppg, 4 rbg and 7 apg while being double teamed the whole game is saying a LOT.

I said better than JJ when we signed him. In other words, Smith's 17ppg-8rpg-3apg-3bpg-1.5spg as a defensive anchor and second option on offense are better than JJ's 17ppg-3.5apg-5rpg-1spg (both shooting 46% from the field) as a solid defender and fourth option on offense when we signed him.

It worked out fine with JJ.

[AnakinJoe]

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To say that Smoove is DEFINITELY better than a guy who gave us 20 ppg, 4 rbg and 7 apg while being double teamed the whole game is saying a LOT.

I said better than JJ when we signed him. In other words, Smith's 17ppg-8rpg-3apg-3bpg-1.5spg as a defensive anchor and second option on offense are better than JJ's 17ppg-3.5apg-5rpg-1spg (both shooting 46% from the field) as a solid defender and fourth option on offense when we signed him.

It worked out fine with JJ.

JJ wasn't still learning how to dribble, learning shot selection, learning how to pass the ball to the PG and fill the wing on a fast break when he was an RFA nor trying to be both a PG and low-post beast in the same off-season (why not focus on mastering 1 skill before trying to learn another).

When I think of Smith becoming an All-Star, I don't immediately think of the team being significantly better (just because he has achieved star-status).

JJ wins... 8 days a week.

[BusBoyIsBack]

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Who's more important to Atlanta's future success?

We won't make a deep playoff push without both so it's a moot point.

[Traceman]

marks. There were NO questions regarding JJ's skills as a player. The only question we had was whether or not he would be able to be a full time PG for us. Once that question was answered (no, he couldn't) and he moved to SG full time, he became an All Star.

Smoove still COULD end up being a better player than JJ one day, but he is not good as JJ was when he (JJ) came to the ATL.

[crimedog]

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To say that Smoove is DEFINITELY better than a guy who gave us 20 ppg, 4 rbg and 7 apg while being double teamed the whole game is saying a LOT.

I said better than JJ when we signed him. In other words, Smith's 17ppg-8rpg-3apg-3bpg-1.5spg as a defensive anchor and second option on offense are better than JJ's 17ppg-3.5apg-5rpg-1spg (both shooting 46% from the field) as a solid defender and fourth option on offense when we signed him.

It worked out fine with JJ.

JJ wasn't still learning how to dribble, learning shot selection, learning how to pass the ball to the PG and fill the wing on a fast break when he was an RFA nor trying to be both a PG and low-post beast in the same off-season (why not focus on mastering 1 skill before trying to learn another).

When I think of Smith becoming an All-Star, I don't immediately think of the team being significantly better (just because he has achieved star-status).

JJ wins... 8 days a week.

Look, I know you don't like Smith, you've made that abundantly clear. The point is, at the time we signed JJ his biggest success had come as a spot up shooter. We wanted him to be the focal point of the offense even though he'd NEVER shown the ability to do anything like that for an extended period of time.

Dwight Howard still can't pass the ball, he still can't handle the ball, still can't shoot the ball, is less refined on D than Smith... does it matter? No, he is a post player. For Orlando to get better, they have to bank on Howard learning how to be a truly dominant defensive player and they have to hope that he learns how to pass out of the double without turning it over. Is it smart of them to gamble on that? Of course.

Smith isn't worth as much as Howard and he isn't a center so there isn't a perfect correlation but he is an extremely effective inside scorer (the most effective on our team) and he is easily our most effective defender WITHOUT having his skills refined.

There is very little argument that JJ had proven more than Josh when we signed JJ aside from the fact that he had more refined skills, in which case we should dump both of them for Luke Jackson and Danillo Gallinari.

[crimedog]

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marks. There were NO questions regarding JJ's skills as a player. The only question we had was whether or not he would be able to be a full time PG for us. Once that question was answered (no, he couldn't) and he moved to SG full time, he became an All Star.

Smoove still COULD end up being a better player than JJ one day, but he is not good as JJ was when he (JJ) came to the ATL.

I'm not sure if you read your own recap. The question was whether he could do what we wanted him to do (play point guard) and the answer was no... Then we asked him to do something else he hadn't proven he could do which is be a go-to scorer for 82 games and he could.

Skills don't equal impact.

[RMJ]

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marks. There were NO questions regarding JJ's skills as a player. The only question we had was whether or not he would be able to be a full time PG for us. Once that question was answered (no, he couldn't) and he moved to SG full time, he became an All Star.

Smoove still COULD end up being a better player than JJ one day, but he is not good as JJ was when he (JJ) came to the ATL.

I'm not sure if you read your own recap. The question was whether he could do what we wanted him to do (play point guard) and the answer was no... Then we asked him to do something else he hadn't proven he could do which is be a go-to scorer for 82 games and he could.

Skills don't equal impact.

Josh Smith is no where near JJ's level and never will be. The guy has no bball IQ, terrible ball handler, can't shoot. and has no post game. For every nice play the guy make on the defensive end, he negates it by taking a bad shot or turning the ball over. He's easily the most overrated player on here by you smoove lovers. The guy only averages 17ppg as a 2nd option. That's terrible for a player who never gets doubled team.

[AnakinJoe]

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Look, I know you don't like Smith, you've made that abundantly clear.

Actually, I like Smith quite a bit at no more than $12M/season. It's all about value relative to team success with me. I saw the mistakes Utah and Phoenix made with their stat stuffers (AK-47 & Matrix) and I hope we don;t make the same mistake with our stat-stuffer.

[Traceman]

the day he put on a uniform.

In the ideal situation, he would have came in and been able to give us the same production from the PG position that he gives from the SG position. Chillz would have been the starting SG, Marvin the starting SF and Smoove the starting PF. That didn't work out for a number of reasons. Worse case scenario was ALWAYS that JJ might not be a PG but he WILL be one of the best all around SGs in the NBA. Period.

When I said skills, I meant "mad skillz" as in JJ is a "straight up baller" who can hold his own on the court with anyone. I also said "skills as a player" not skills as a PG.

[crimedog]

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the day he put on a uniform.

In the ideal situation, he would have came in and been able to give us the same production from the PG position that he gives from the SG position. Chillz would have been the starting SG, Marvin the starting SF and Smoove the starting PF. That didn't work out for a number of reasons. Worse case scenario was ALWAYS that JJ might not be a PG but he WILL be one of the best all around SGs in the NBA. Period.

When I said skills, I meant "mad skillz" as in JJ is a "straight up baller" who can hold his own on the court with anyone. I also said "skills as a player" not skills as a PG.

You still aren't getting my point. I watched most of the Suns games in 04-05 (one of my roomates was from BC and therefore was obliged to be all over Steve Nash's nuts), Joe was good but not "take over" good. There are plenty of very skilled players that can produce like Joe did in 05' but can't do what Joe does now. We gambled that Joe's skills could translate and that he could become the type of player he is now, which is a whole different level than the player he was then. The Cavs made a similar gamble with Larry Hughes (who was considered better than Joe at the time) and got screwed for it.

Resigning Smith is going to take a gamble too, the difference is that there are teams willing to pay good money for what Smith brings today because he is a dominant shotblocker and efficient scorer inside - obviously the problem is that he takes too many shots from the outside.

[Chris18]

If we are talking about the future Josh should be our top priority but Joe is the better player right now. The main thing is that we cannot allow Josh to leave and blow up into a superstar in another city while we are stuck in mediocraty for the next decade all over again.

[Traceman]

There was NO doubt in my mind that he had what it took to be one of the best players in the NBA. It was obvious to me that the reason he didn't score more was because he had to share the ball with Nash, Stoudamire and Marion. Kind of like it is obvious to me that Rip Hamilton would score more outside of DET.

As for Larry Hughes, I always thought that he was going to be a bad fit with LeBron because of his suspect J. In WAS, he fit GREAT with Arenas, Jamison and Butler because they can all shoot. His job was to penetrate and take his man off the dribble which he can do. In CLE, LeBron has the ball ALL THE TIME. Hughes is no spot up shooter and never will be.

I agree that signing Smith is somewhat of a gamble but I think it is a gamble we have to take. If he can give us the 17.2 ppg, 8.2 rbg, 3.4 apg, 2.8 bpg, 1.5 spg that he gave us last year while cutting down on TOs and poor shots, I will be happy because his overall impact on the game will be tremendous.

[Zone034life]

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In the ideal situation, he would have came in and been able to give us the same production from the PG position that he gives from the SG position. Chillz would have been the starting SG, Marvin the starting SF and Smoove the starting PF. That didn't work out for a number of reasons. Worse case scenario was ALWAYS that JJ might not be a PG but he WILL be one of the best all around SGs in the NBA. Period.

The reason JJ didn't work out at the PG position had nothing to do with numbers. It had to do with it taking away from his best skill set which is to score the ball. Numbers didn't make JJ to slow to guard the opposing teams PG. Woody had his best scorer tied up trying to make plays for guys who couldn't make plays yet. There was a big article in the AJC where JJ proclaimed he wanted to run the point. That was one of JJ's only failures in a Hawks uniform but it had everything to do with making the most of his skillset.

I hate threads that make people tear down one Hawks player while building the other up. I am guilty myself as well sometimes but it still causes to much division amongst fans.