Where is the big trade Babcock promised?....

[MoonKnight]

I just don't see the SAR like trade happening this year despite Pete's earlier statements. The voluntary workouts and the "consultations" with players makes me believe management is content with the core of the team. Realistically, how can Toni and Hendu bring us an up and coming star swing player? Nazr may have to be added to the mix to swing this proposed deal. I will not be disappointed if a big trade is not accomplished. If Theo stays healthy and Ira knocks down the 15ft on a regular basis, then we should be a playoff team (that is if JT or SAR don't break a leg). I know Pete works quietly on trades but should he have mentioned this trade idea? I am afraid many will be disappointed if a big trade does not go down. Thoughts?

[jaywalker72]

He always said what he would "like" to do, but never promised.

Plus, nobody heard a peep about the Reef trade until the day before the draft.

Also, the trade was made that early because we were dealing our pick in that draft.

This year, maybe we wait until after the draft and during the free agent period to make a trade.

Either way, I won't be too disappointed, but a SF to replace Toni or a Free agent SF to play with Toni would be a terrific addition.

[Admin]

to go hmmm about you know? I think we all kinda miss that, and speaking of that.........where is that mad man at? I really am of the opinion that the team wouldnt have made this new deal to the fans if Pete wasnt confident that he would be able to bring in another good player for us, although not likely of the Reef variety.

[Guest]

Agreed.I think and Hope we get Marshall at the worst.No improvement

is what the team has done in the past.I like Ira,but for us to become

a playoff team he needs to be the defensive stopper off the bench...He

needs to be replaced by a more talented player in the starting lineup.

When you have no real star player you need all the talent you can

get to make up for it.

[Admin]

In reply to:

---

When you have no real star player you need all the talent you can

get to make up for it.

---

You must be kidding right? SAR is one of the best and youngest players in basketball. I would consider him one of the 10 best players in the league without a second thought. JT is one of the best young PGs in basketball and proved in the second half last year that he can put up all-star type numbers at PG. He will likely never average 10 assists per game, but if we get him one more offensive player to go along with Reef to where JT doesnt have to take as many shots, who knows maybe he can. Theo is not a star player in the true sense, but he is an All-Star level center when he is healthy. I really think you should re-think your statement there ARR.

[Guest]

Shareef is about the 17th best player in the league.Top 10??NOWAY

1)Shaq

2)Tim D

3)Tmac

3)Kobe

5)KG

6)Dirk

7)Webber

8)Kidd

9)Paul Pierce

10)Allen Iverson

That's 10 players that are better than Shareef right there.

Shareef is in the 2nd line PF's with Walker/Brand..which isn't

bad,but when you don't have a top 10 player you need as

much talent as you can get...We don't have a top 10 player.

Steve Francis is better than Shareef too from your own Houston

Rockets.

[Admin]

those guys you listed, so IMO he is top 10. Dirk and Pierce are very good, but neither are better than SAR IMO. Besides, you said we dont have any star players, so are your top 10 guys all you consider to be stars?

[Guest]

Webber deserving that status is questionable due to the fact

that The Kings missed very little while he was out....

But those are guys that have carried their team.Walker wouldn't

be in the playoffs if PP wasn't there.You can image NJ without

Kidd....How is neither Dirk or PP better than Shareef?PP has

took Boston WAY futher than Shareef has took anyone.

Boston has alot of chumps,but PP still lead them to the playoffs..

He was the 3rd leading scorer in the NBA and a outstanding defen-

sive player.

Karl Malone and Gary Payton are on the list also.Those are guys

that lead their teams to the playoffs.

Those guys are just better and have lead their team to the playoffs.

Give me some legit reasons why Shareef is a top 10 player.

[Julio]

SAR is a good player but hardly a top 10 player. All he has ever done is lose. He is incapable of carrying a team, which is something a top 10 player can do.

[Admin]

1)Shaq

2)Tim D

3)Tmac

3)Kobe

5)KG

6)Dirk

7)Webber

8)Kidd

9)Paul Pierce

10)Allen Iverson

How many of those guys have a title? Which one of those guys by themselves could you put on a team without another good player or a good coach and see them go anywhere? How many of those guys have been to the Finals?

I suppose you wouldnt consider Nique a star either since he never carried us anywhere right?

[Julio]

I stated that all SAR does is lose.

Now, look at your list again and tell me if any of those players have gone 6 straight years of losing anywhere the way SAR has?

6 straight years of losing, losing and more...well....losing.

All he does is lose.

[Admin]

Is it winning 50 games? Going to the playoffs? The finals? The conference finals? What is your definition of carrying a team?

[Guest]

PP often takes games over in the 4th period and wins

the game....They just find ways to lead their teams to

victory.That doesn't seem to happen here.

As far as Nique goes,he wasn't on Bird/MJ's or even Clyde

Drexlers level.....He was mostly a showman.He was a good

scorer and all,but I don't believe he was on the SUPERSTAR

level like the Bird's/Magic/MJ were.

Like I said,there is nothing wrong with saying Shareef is around

Rasheed Wallace/Walker/Brand/Marion.Some people rate him in

the 30's in top players...That is underrated...but putting him as

a top 10 is overrating him.15-20th is where Shareef is at.Nothing

wrong with that.

[Admin]

of you that you know absolutely nothing about basketball.

In reply to:

---

As far as Nique goes,he wasn't on Bird/MJ's or even Clyde

Drexlers level

---

You have got to be kidding. No, Nique isnt MJ or Bird or Magic thats true, but not on Drexelers level? You are nuts!

Now, back to Reef!

I think that the problem you and this other guy are having problems with is realizing that Reef has been on terrible teams and therefore makes him seem like he isnt a winner. Show me one other player in the NBA that can do what Reef does at Power Forward and at Small Forward while being double teamed constantly and being the main option without much help, because thats whats happened to Reef in his career.

Just to put into perspective my statement that Reef belongs up there with the top guys, including Pierce I want to show you statistically how Reef compares to Pierce.

2002 Stats

PP

82 games

26 ppg

7 rpg

3 apg

1,598 fg attempts

.442 fg percentage

Reef

77 games

21 ppg

9 rpg

3 apg

1,297 fg attempts

.461 fg percentage

Doing the math for you, Pierce had 301 more FG attempts than Reef did, shooting almost 20% lower than Reef too by the way. However, PP did play in 5 more games so we have to figure that out, but dont worry I will do it for ya. PP averaged 19.5 FGs per game while Reef averaged 16.5 FGs per game. So, using the average FG percentage for Reef, its easy to figure out that if he had taken 3 more FGs per game he would have made roughly 1.5 of them, or about 3 pts. That would put his PPG up to 24 PPG, just 2 less than Pierce while still shooting almost 20% higher and grabing 2 more RPG. Now, what is the easier stat to get, 2 points or 2 rebounds?

Now, if you want to use the "Reef isnt a star because he has never taken his team anywhere" arguement....consider that until this year Pierce had NEVER taken his team anywhere and he has had another very good player whom by your words is equal to Reef playing with him. Since you didnt put JT up in that category I would assume that you consider PP/Walker to be better than Reef/JT right?

So, really I cannot understand where you arguement for Pierce over Reef comes from other than personal bias against Reef.

By the way, what is Pierces career high in points for a game? Its 48. Reefs is 50.

What is Pierces career high for rebounds in a game? Its 15. Reefs if 22.

What is Pierces career high for assists in a game? Its 9. Reefs is 13.

Really the only thing that Pierce has on Reef is that he is a better 3 point shooter, but thats about it. Now maybe you will understand why I consider Reef to be in the same category as Pierce, and then again maybe you wont.

[Guest]

You have got to be kidding. No, Nique isnt MJ or Bird or Magic

thats true, but not on Drexelers level? You are nuts!"

Well Clyde actually took Portland to the finals while we were

a 1st and 2nd round team basically every year.Nique was a

scorer and not much else.EVERYONE other than Hawk fans

seem to realize this.

"I think that the problem you and this other guy are having

problems with is realizing that Reef has been on terrible teams

and therefore makes him seem like he isnt a winner."

Why is Tmac leading a bunch of scrubs other than MIke Miller

to the playoffs?Why is PP going to the 3rd round with only 1

other good player?Eric Williams and Tony Battie starters?C'mon

dude.

"So, really I cannot understand where you arguement for Pierce over Reef comes from other than personal bias against Reef.

By the way, what is Pierces career high in points for a game? Its 48. Reefs is 50.

What is Pierces career high for rebounds in a game? Its 15. Reefs if 22.

What is Pierces career high for assists in a game? Its 9. Reefs is 13."

1)Are you sure it is me being bias or you hometowning?

2)Tony Delk scored 50 points....Willie Burton scored 50 points..

3)Paul Pierce is a swingman,but Shareef is a PF, so you figure him to get

more boards.

4)PP can also say he knocked out the previous seasons Eastern Conference

champions...I think that means more than a career high in assist

You can compare stats all you want,but the true guys get the job

done.Guys like Mitch Richmond were good players and put up nice

numbers,but he rarely got the got the job done on taking his team

anywhere.

PP is also a better defensive player...he freakin blocked MJ back to

back shots early this season.Remember that?

I laugh at your calling me unknowledgeable when your putting a 21/9

guy that hasn't ever made the playoffs and career high in win total is

33 games as a top 10 player.

And if I am unknowledgeable,how come your the only one rating

Shareef a top 10 player?You have your opinion and if you want to

continue to believe it...That is your choice.However,Reef hasn't

accomplished enough to make him a top 10 player.It's that simple.

What's my gain for being bias againest Shareef?Like you I hear

alot of bullshit for being a Hawks fan.I am truthful,and just because

I like a player doesn't mean I am going to say he is the best there

is.

Ranking Shareef is a top 20 player is about right...But I doubt you

will find anyone other than a die hard Hawk fan that will agree with

you.

Just like Baron Davis has put himself of Steve Francis and Andre

Miller...He has actually done something when it really counted...

IN IMPORTANT GAMES.Shareef has yet to play in a big game

because he hasn't got there.He might get there next year or

the year after,but right now the highest ranking he gets is 15th.