noble

This is the issue right here. I agree we could have gone into the season with a young team that would have made the playoffs had some different moves been made. Keeping Dwight a year, THJ, Sap, etc. But right here AHF hit the nail on the head. It would have been a decent team to make the playoffs, but not win a ring. We couldn't compete with elite. It would have taken injuries on about four teams to even think this was a possibility. Now let's be clear I don't think tanking will be the magical formula for one, but the path we were on wasn't the way either. I'm not sure, if I am being honest, much could have been done to turn this team into a contender.

Nope, I don't think a 19 year old will work right away, but over a little bit of time. (ATL is hoping it falls in line with LeBron diminishing or gone) I think you need a superstar to get great players, which CAN lead to a ring, not just another playoff appearance. It may not happen for a few seasons, so be it. You win 30-40 next season and either be the 8th seed or barely miss the playoffs, well that is improvement. I agree more than 2 seasons in a row of an absolute terrible Hawks team could break Mike down. I don't see it with one season as he knew what was coming before this season ever started. I think he said he would go with it for a year maybe two at the most. But this isn't about what those okay with a rebuild attempt would like. This is about the Anti-Tank. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE OR RATHER HAD SEEN HAPPEN?

Biggest issue I have with this is, we tried this when Horford was here and we couldn't get free agents to come. We tried by adding Sap, and we STILL couldn't get players to come. That roster would probably be a 5th or 6th seed. Not really a threat for a ring and it would take some serious injection of talent over the next few years to sniff the ECF let alone a ring. Since we couldn't sign real free agents I'm not sure how we could have done that. I do see what you are thinking and that wouldn't be the worst roster I could see rolling out. But I am not sure it would have been sustainable or a viable threat. We probably would have picked middle of the draft again.

This is what I have been saying too. We were already on a downward slope when Horford left and we couldn't get pieces to go with him when we had him. We made the playoffs, but we never had that ONE guy that would be a difference maker. Once Horford left and we started missing on other FAs the only scenario would be to rebuild. I think the major difference between the "Pro Tankers" as KB and Brazil calls them and those on the other side is many of the "pro tankers" weren't happy with just watching a decent team that was going to make the playoffs but was never going to win a ring. It isn't that any of us want to see a bad team for a long duration, I think we all can agree on that there. What the hope is that one day in our lifetimes we get to see Atlanta as the NBA champs. There are ZERO guarantees. We could make the playoffs in as short as next year or in 2 years, or we could be terrible for a longer duration. So to KB, you are so fatalistic to think with a good draft pick, a solid move or 2 in FA, and development of what we have, we wouldn't make the playoffs sooner than you think. Could we be stuck? Sure, but I would argue we were stuck before too. You can't honestly tell me you thought this team had a shot at a championship in the last few years. Like I said it isn't that we are all pro-tank or whatever. We are hoping we get a chance at a ring. To do that you need talent, real talent, game changing talent. The team thing might be fun to watch, but without a Superstar, it is nothing more than fodder. How you don't see that all of your "evidence" you give all had Superstar level talent they drafted, then I don't know what to tell you. I'm not saying support the tank or whatever you want to call it. I am saying you should support the attempt at getting a player that MIGHT be a difference maker for a team that has not tasted a championship since it moved cities. We weren't getting one in free agency. You have to have one to win a ring, this is not debatable. It just isn't.

This is what I don't get. It's done. We are where we are. Hate it, love it, or somewhere in the middle. It doesn't mean we will be a terrible team for years as you say, nor does it mean we will win a championship. Just move forward. I wasn't really loving the idea at all, until we couldn't get stars to come and we couldn't keep the players we had. At that point it is retool the entire thing. Higher statistical probability of doing that with a high pick or 2 than hang around the middle of the draft. So I felt like if we were going to lose players, just blow it all up. It's where we are.

4 years? That is all? Hell I've been waiting over 30 for a championship. I guess what you are saying is the difference why some are okay with trying this and some aren't. You are okay making the playoffs and hoping magic happens to get that Superstar, MVP, whatever we want to call it. Not sure beyond some freak injuries how that was going to happen since we couldn't get one in FA, hell we couldn't even keep key players. Others are okay hoping to hit in the lottery. This isn't even close to a marriage my man. Sports is about two things. Money and championships. Neither of which have been with the Hawks. You put an entertaining successful product out there, people will pay to see it. People want to be a part of a championship. It's why fans turned cold as the Hawks had their playoff run, there was no championship coming. How many years did the Cavs and Warriors have empty arenas? They got good enough for a championship and had elite talent people wanted to see. The fans you speak of isn't the casual fan. The casual fan won't be interested until there is a chance. Hardcore fans will watch, but maybe not go to the games if they are bad but will go to a playoff game even knowing there is almost no chance at a title. My real question to those opposed to trying to find a Superstar level player to chase a ring in the draft. How would you have proposed they get one to get the ring? Remember we couldn't get any with what was supposed to be a great core of unselfish players in FA. We couldn't even keep them together. Just curious how the other side saw the solution to the problem of being a middle of the road playoff team without a real championship shot without that ONE guy.

That is a one in a million roster right there. There is a reason that hasn't happened before or since. Nique had the talent, but sadly played at the same time as Jordan, Bird, Magic, just a lot of all-world talent all at once.

So when was the last time a team won a championship without a Superstar? I can name ONE, the 2004 Pistons. Other than that I can't remember any other in over 30 years.

I loved watching that team, but that team was never going to win a championship. They didn't have that ONE guy who could take over a game. The NBA is just that way, and even more so in the playoffs. You have to have that ONE guy, even as part of the whole, the guy who can elevate his game. Your flaw is thinking that was a championship caliber team. It was a really good team, one I loved watching just as much as you did. But, it was not a championship team. We got swept. Do you really think Korver and Carroll would have made the series flip to the Hawks? I just can't get there looking at the roster of the Cavs that year AND knowing they had LeBron who could take over at any moment. I would have loved to see it, but to be honest there was little surprise we lost that series. Surprised we got swept, but not lost it. Then, we couldn't keep Horf and started falling apart. Did you ever think as to why we couldn't keep Al? I mean really think about it? Look at what he said from the outside looking in for a second after he left. He knew this wasn't a championship team without that one piece. He knew he wasn't that guy and we weren't getting that guy. That is what is amazing about the Superstars and the NBA of today. They are part of the whole, it is just when they need to be more they can be so much more. You think Steph Curry is the ONLY reason the Warriors win? No, he fits the whole so well and can take the game over. Same with KD, LeBron, etc. You can have both, you need both.

It has worked, just usually not as quickly as you would like. Tank, rebuild, gather assets, injuries, whatever you want to call it, getting a Superstar early in the draft helps teams. Plain and simple you have to have an All-NBA caliber player to be a championship team. How do you get one? Free agency or draft. It has been clear we have never been able to get one in free agency, which leads us down the draft path. Usually more Superstars are found at the top of the draft, that is just statistics, not an absolute, statistically you have a higher chance.

You keep saying pro tank. I am not necessarily pro tank as much as I am pro Superstar. We couldn't get one in free agency, ever. So why not try to draft one? Sure, maybe you get it wrong, but I'm on board with the attempt. If you couldn't get one the other way, try a different way. You know the whole insanity is repeating the same thing over and over, and expecting different results thing. (Which actually isn't an Einstein quote)

Yeah MY statement wasn't pro or anti. It was stating no matter what, the roster going into this year wasn't going to be a good team, thus why not play the young guys more. You may want to re-read that.

Yeah i am not so sure we would have won. Maybe. But beating the Warriors, not a chance. The media is a double edged sword. You need them for national interest, which brings eyes. Which brings money. Which brings Superstars. While most if us here follow the Hawks regardless, we aren't really what drives money to this team. It is the casual fan, national eyes, TV, etc.

Where was the banter? Seriously I think I missed it.

Valid. I would almost be okay with that level of excitement again. It's been a long time

Yeah, not sure why this isn't happening. Tank or not this team wasn't going to be very good. Why not get them minutes?

I dunno. I think when Nique was playing we were at least talked about on a national level. His highlights were a reason for discussion and eyes. But I get when you are saying.

Hey look at that Babbitt was 4-4 from 3.

Ouch....just ouch

Wait...do we really only have 2 offensive rebounds this late into the game? Haha.

So basically the same ol same ol since I have been a fan. No championship? Okay, been through that. I've waited 20 years for the Hawks to be relevant again, I can wait longer while we try to get a Superstar.

I think this is where we differ. We haven't really been a relevant team since Nique was here. As hard as it is to admit as a fan, but even making the playoffs we had zero chance of a championship. Even IF we had kept the core we had, but never added a Superstar we had pretty much zero chance at a title. So making the playoffs was meaningless to me. Cool, I got to watch a few extra games, but not once did I actually think we had the talent to beat one of the top flight teams. Can't WIN a championship if you don't have the talent regardless if you make the playoffs. We were relevant for about a month and a half when we went on that month long run....then we were not really talked about. Why? No Superstar to draw eyes.

My guess is with a limited roster Bud doesn't want to get into a track meet type game. Slow it down and try to control the clock a little bit. But they are taking it to an extreme.

Yeah I think that is probably a coaching thing. Not sure why though.

I'm not a millennial I am a gen-x. I still am okay with a few years of trying to be a relevant team with a superstar. I want to see a championship, I'm tired if settling for a playoff appearance and seeing us exit and know we have zero shot at a championship. Tired of the suffering.