GoDawgs21

I think the biggest thing overlooked in the media and even on here is how big of an impact Jason Collier was last year. Last year was only the second year for these guys being togther. Its hard to imagine a young group of guys, losing their locker room guy and then start on that west coast road trip. After the young guys got refocused we werent horrible last year. Its hard to imagine we still doubled our wins(i know that wasnt many to begin with) after that 0-9 and 2-15(?) start. The signs where there that this may be our year. Now if (knocking really hard on my desk) we can aviod any major injury or owner problem I think everyone will see what was pushed back from last year due to that tragic circumstance.

Yeh I was really surprised he drove over and over to his right. Being a fellow south paw, I felt Josh's pain. It is so easy to get in a habit of soley going left. When you play coming up and even to an extent everytime you play anyone for the first time they just naturaly position themselves giving up the drive to the left, so you take till they stop it. But it does show a maturation that he is recognizing this and is beginning to go to right. It will only make his game that much better.

I posted this earlier on the AJC blog and it got me thinking. I did want to respond to something you said in T. (I hate my life, so I take it out on others) Moore's blog. You say we have too many SF, but it is this depth that is allowing for all out effort on defense every minute. You ask what will happen when Marvin comes back? Lets do some simple math. There are 48 minutes at each F spot. It is safe to say Smoove plays alot at the PF. Chill also plays 3-4 minutes at the 2 when JJ goes out, and last night even played 3 at the PG for a long athletic lineup to give the starters a rest. Shelden will also slide over and play 3-4 minutes at the C spot when other teams go small to give ZaZa a breather. Thats 106 total minutes for four players Shelden, Chill, Marvin, SMith. Thats 27 minutes a player. UM, hello most starters average 30-35 minutes a game. So we have our top four players in the entire time. How many games last 2 years would our bench come in and we would be in the game down 1 or 2 and then get blown out by I 15-4 run with our bench in. Now imagine other teams bench going against a fresh, Chill, Marvin, Smith, or Sheldon. Can you say match up problems. Thats 27 minutes that each play can be going all out on defense and offense where some players tank a few positions to rest up. Its this depth that allows us to run, play d, and then not worry if one guy gets in foul trouble (how many times last year if Smith or Al got in trouble did we hear Smitty say who's going ot help Joe score now), or god forbid someone get hurt. Its all about depth, we trade one of these guys and then one gets hurt ala Marvin, Matt Frieje is a starter. Think about that. Teams like Miami and Detriot are succesfull because of depth. Nobody whined about Detriot having Wallace,Wallace,Tashyun, Antonio McDyess. Gee, thats 4 forwards. How did that depth turn out for them??? Miami went out and got Haslam, Wright, Walker, Siemen, Kapono. It seems that everyone points out the Hawks glut at the F spot, but nobody points out that strategy has won several rings in the past 5 years.

I just dont understand how you can go all day bashing this team and tearing it apart and then say I HAVE NEVER FELT BETTER ABOUT A TEAM. Rooting and never feeling better are two diffrent things.

Quote: Knight has been here 2002. That is more than enough time to produce something more than the slideshow of 6'9" wunderkinds who can't even win thirty games. As Texas Pete and myself have said previously this man has blown picks by taking decent players when we could have had much better. Mrhonline, I did not say the Joshes and Marvin were the absolute worst picks. Reread my post prior to this one. I said that just because he did NOT make the absolute worst picks does not mean he should be kept. If peddling mediocrity is sufficient for most of you then Pete Babcock never should have been fired. Pete at least managed to put together 50+ win teams to his credit. Using the new Hawks fans criteria that should put him somewhere between God and Jesus. can we say record flip flop this was from the thread this afternoon were Softy and Texas made it sound like the Hawks had no chance of being decent and we pissed away our future with Billy. In a matter of 5 hours one can go from complete wretched hate for the make up of the team to quote " Never felt better about a team" What do you expect out of someone that in the thread said Billy has had six or seven years to turn this around? way to pay attentoin and welcome to the bandwagon, you sir are the first to hop on from the otherside.

yeh I'm the ultamte optimist, but top 5 ehhh, ehhh, ehh, i hope but I just knocked GSUTEKE back to the floor when I fell out of my chair.

Um, side note we never offered Damp the max we offered him sig. less to what we thought he was worth, dont get what people say on here or in the media as to what we actually want. We wanted a body but not for the max deal he got. Secondly in response to the Paxson deal. Not I said the Bulls took 7 years. In your previous post you said how long of a playoff drought does it take for money paying fans to get upset ad you said 6 or 7 years. You held BK accountable for havingthe time before him. Can we not say that Paxson walked into a team that was already rebuidling. He ad pieces he could use to trade like Curry and Chandler. As noted in the previous post he also had 3 top 10 picks to aide in the rebuilding. Look at his average draft position compared to Atl. BK literally had to spend a year undoing what Babcock did to allow himself to be able to manuever under the salary cap. Paxson came in with the Bulls way under and could go out and do as he pleased. Billy had to wait to get rid of the bloated contracts. They take over at the same time say you are a GM from a third team and you get two calls. "Dear Sir we have this player he is a 33 yr old center with two years left on his overpriced contract, what do you think" "Dear Sir we have a 22 year old that still might his peak on his rookie contract and we want a lotto pick. Now which team o you think they trade with, and you wonder why Paxson was able to get his 3 top ten picks.

Im not about tearing your guys to pieces. I am just trying to say you are picking apart BK for every lil detail. PHX giving Diaw all that money. Letting JJ go. MIA um there teams age. Not one significant player other then Wade is under 30. So you go one pop like the Marlins to pad Riley's record but what do they do in several years when everyone is gone. Chicago- You personal favorite, oh I am overjoyed you took this one. They missed the playoffs for 7 years. So it took them 7 years to rebuild. We are turnign the corner in year 4. Thanks for proving my point. They just made the 1st round and thats it. If we do that this year or next wouldnt that make BK's job quicker and equal. Thanks for picking that one buddy, you made my job too easy. Dallas with that absurd contract to Dampier. Is worse then anything BK has done. My point isnt that I am teraing you down. You are giving BK a short stick when even the GM's you put on this list have made bigger mistakes then any that BK has. So if you are willing to over look their mistakes, and only look at their positives why cant you see BK got us JJ,Zaza, Smoove, and cap room. Most of the guys on your list got 1 player from the top 3 picks, and havent done much else. With a bad trade or something they have negativie too. BK is really in his first year with his top pick Marvin. All I am saying is dont trash him for his 2nd rd pick and an NBDL guy.

IM not saying I was a supporter of all the moves, go back up I stated my preference was that we trade down and get O'Byant.( I cant use hindsight like petey) I wanted a defensive force in the paint. My entire point in this thread today was you may not be happy with the picks/moves, but to call BK the worst GM or awful GM and throw him under the bus for not picking up an NBDL league player that every team had a shot at, and critizgin a second rd pick is ludacris. You may not be happy with soem moves, but from what BK was given to work with. I would say its one of the better GM jobs in the league. An old tired over the cap team and only 3 years under the cap and a talented young team that has a chance.

No it doesnt make me smarter. But you saw him play on one night in one game. What if a team was trapping him? He had an off night etc? Im just saying I stood on the same court with him. Doesnt make me smarter, makes me more educated to make decisions. That is the problem with you, you are making all these statements, and yet not one fact. You are regurgetating what others say and dont have any facts for your argument. The solution is simple educate yourself then add some validity to your argument and we will listen. You say BK isnt a top ten gm. OK, so lets see your ok with JJ, your ok with Zaza. So its not his FA pick ups you have a probelm with. Draftwise I see you would rather have Paul, thats fine. So you main problem with an NBA GM is not drafting a guy you like in hindsight, but drafting the guy everyone and his brother thinks will be a perinal all-star. Oh, and his 2nd round draft choices arent making a big enough impact. If you have problems with this try being anywhere else. A Knicks fan drafteing Bachmon in the first rd, now there's a dtretch at draft picks. Giving what amounts to 18 million with the luxury tax to Jared Jefferies. Did you want BK to waste our money on Kenyon or other highpriced guys hurting our leverage with actually good FA. I bet you whined when we didnt get Kenyon and Dampier. NEWS FLASH if we signed either of them we couldnt afford JJ. You look at what is right in front of you but look at the big pic. I will bet my house that if we are winning next year you will have no problem with any of this. Thats called a front runner and fairweather fan. You can support them when things are good, but you cant handle the growing pains to get there.

Texas Pete Got no Sauce, please still answer anyone of the questions I raised above with any facts. So you saw Monta, play against Louis Williams, funny cause Louis didnt play in college. The bigger question is have you ever played against Louis? We played at Ramsey all year round and in the summer time when coaches "couldnt run practice" all the players would play up there a "trainer" would watc hand give direction. Mike and Louis came up there and played for almost a week. They got beat by the likes of Rashaud and even took some hard fouls from Steve Thomas. The point is they were in HS. So now you going to say that BK sohuld have gone to watch Monta play Louis in HS game and should automatically see he is NBA ready ot lead a team. You get funny as this post goes on.

Thank you northcyde I was getting around to this and constructing a roster with his wishes. So who rebounds? Who plays defense? IF one of your fowards gets hurt like Marvin did who steps up? You run a 3 guard lineup out there? Smith is a off the ball weak side defender, not a man up guy yet, and Zaza is not known for holding the paint. So who stops the layup line? Yes we could gun for the NBA 3 pt record but what happens on bad shooting nights? How is this guard heavy lineup working for NY? It would be almost identical team. Q Rich, Marbury, Francis, Crawford, but no meat. You cant compare that lineup to PHX either because it is no where as fast to run like they do, and you still dont have a low post presence like Amare.

Ok there hotty, since we all dont have the hindsight you do lets think what BK could have been thinking predraft picks. 2004: The Best 10 Years from Now?: This could be the strongest position in the Draft, as we feel at least 8-10 of the guys will develop into regulars at the next level. But as far as superstar potential goes, we can't escape Josh Smith ... Luol Deng and Josh Childress should develop into a fringe NBA All-Stars, but it's Smith who has the greatest potential for stardom. Source: http://probasketball.about.com/cs/rumors/a...onranks04_3.htm Then a review placing everyone except Howard and Iggy in the same catagory, so be prepared to ask why picks 2-5 are still about par with our pick at 6 and also picks 7 and 8. « Reneging on My Tigers PredictionNBA and MLB Transaction Analysis »2004 NBA Draft Review and Analysis I’ve decided to add a few new features to the site today. Once a week I’m going to be doing a Draft Review much like the one you will see below. I’ll be starting with the 2004 NBA Draft and moving backwards, since I believe it takes at least 2 years before a draft can be accurately evaluated. The day will vary so check back often. Also I’ve added an “Ask J-Lits” section upon suggestion of one Colin Pybus. The purpose of this section is to submit a question to me and I’ll devote a blog entry every so often to answering the best questions. Enjoy boys and girls! Top 10 of the 2004 NBA Draft Dwight Howard - Orlando Magic Emeka Okafur - Charlotte Bobcats Ben Gordon - Chicago Bulls Shaun Livingston - Los Angeles Clippers Devin Harris - Dallas Mavericks Josh Childress - Atlanta Hawks Luol Deng - Phoenix Suns Rafael Araujo - Toronto Raptors Andre Iguodala - Philadelphia 76ers Luke Jackson - Cleveland Cavaliers Top 10 Analysis - This draft was widely regarded as being very weak at the top but having a good number of quality NBA players spread throughout. Dwight Howard may buck this trend however. He’s turning into a legit NBA superstar in Orlando, which is quietly developing into one of the better teams in the Eastern Conference. Andre Iguodala was an absolute steal at #9 for Philly. He’s another possible star in the making. Harris, Livingston, Deng, Gordon, Childress and Okafur are developing into solid NBA players. The biggest bust is obviously the Raptors choice of “Hafa” at #8. Araujo wasn’t supposed to go til the end of the first round and through his first few seasons, we are seeing why. A real waste of a pick by Rob Babcock. Luke Jackson has had some injury problems but he isn’t looking to be Top 10 worthy either in Cleveland. First Round Steals 17th Overall - Josh Smith, Atlanta Hawks - Smith looks like a star in the making to me once he matures. His athleticism is ridiculous and he has an uncanny ability to block shots. 20th Overall - Jameer Nelson, Denver Nuggets - Although Denver officially drafted him, Jameer is doing his damage in Orlando. He’s an outstanding player with great leadership qualities and he’s only played two seasons. Jameer, Dwight and Darko may be quite the force in a few years. 24th Overall - Delonte West, Boston Celtics - The Celts got a quality starting PG at the bottom of the first round, as West was always overshadowed by his teammate at St. Joseph’s, Jameer Nelson. West is now part of a dangerously young Celtics squad who will be scary if they can stay together for a few years. 26th Overall - Kevin Martin, Sacramento Kings - Martin is an ultra-skinny SG who found the perfect situation in Sacto. He’ll continue to be a key part of their rotation for years to come. Second Round Steals 31st Overall - Anderson Varejao, Orlando Magic - The Magic made a bad move getting rid of this guy, Drew Gooden and Steven Hunter for merely Tony Battie and 2 second round picks. He’s acclimated himself well in Cleveland and will be looking to have a breakout season this year, when he’s finally healthy. 39th Overall - Chris Duhon, Chicago Bulls - Duhon is the greatest steal in this draft. A dependable PG/SG for the Bulls who excels defensively, he’s a core part of their foundation for years to come. Biggest Busts 8th Overall - Rafael Araujo, Toronto Raptors - Hafa is a massive bust and he’s not going to reverse this. No mobility, no instincts, no confidence, you name it and Araujo doesn’t have it. This pick can be directly linked to the firing of Rob Babcock. 10th Overall - Luke Jackson, Cleveland Cavaliers - Its tough to find busts in this draft because there aren’t a lot of players who’ve actually done well yet. Jackson doesn’t look like he will do well in the future either. Source:http://jefflittle.ca/blog/?p=34 There are too many to copy and paste for the Marvin pick but read at your leisure. Some even saying yes the Hawks are stacked at the wing but you must draft Marvin. http://www.sportscolumn.com/story/2005/6/27/225020/231 While he might be short on experience, the talent is there. The scouts I talk to still are in love with Williams' potential, and in recent games his performance has improved considerably. After shooting 37.3 percent from the field in November, he upped the mark to 49.0 percent in January, while averaging a more respectable 8.5 points and 4.8 boards. And with his gorgeous jumper, it's only a matter of time before he becomes a devastating 3-point threat. Right now he's shooting that shot from a few feet inside the 3-point line, but once he starts getting an extra point on those shots it will be a much more effective weapon. "We're very pleased with Marvin's progress as a player because he can't help but get better," said Woodson. "I think the upside for him is going to be good because he does a little bit of everything. He defends, he rebounds, he can make a shot, he runs the floor well. There are a lot of good qualities in his basketball game. But he still has a lot of things he's got to learn before he gets to that upper tier." To sum it up, then: When you include Williams' steeper learning curve, it's not that surprising that he's so much further behind Paul as a rookie. Perhaps the Hawks wonder what might have been if they had taken Paul, but they realize they hardly blew it by taking Williams. Yes, Paul might be making an immediate trip to the All-Star Game, but few basketball people would be surprised if Williams is joining him in a few years. And if it works out that way, the Hawks needn't lament passing on Paul. And this comes from one of the biggest haters of the Hawks Hollinger on ESPN. He had an easy opp. to continue his bashing and didnt. Funny if your enemies cant even knock it how do fans. Source:http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&id=2313267 Ok Hotty where are your facts. So while the picks may not be what you liked. They have all resulted in better then average players and were what most draft experts projected. So why are they terrible picks please tell me?

LOL Quote of the day. "So, between you and GD, I have a hard time responding because your facts are off." --- I ate paint chips as a kid Our facts are off, I showed you what ever GM has done in the 3 drafts that show what each player has been able to do. I have shown how bad our defense was last year. What facts have you shown? NOT A ONE. The only point you have made is I can see 20/20 hindsight and I knew better then everyone that Paul was going to blow up. The f'n Jazz and all their wonderful NBA minds including Jerry Sloan took another PG in front of Paul. Yes, he has turned out to be a fine player, but you cant know that going in. Secondly, I hope to revist this years from now when Paul's small body catchs up to him and he is injury prone. So I asked you to state me one fact. Name a player head and shoulders, or that would have made a quantium leap for our team. Marvin was young and we knew it might take some time. But even your boy CP3 didnt get NO into the playoffs. They were there 3 years ago. But didnt make it last year. If he is god reincarnated like you think how come he couldnt take them to that quantium leap of the playoffs???????

Quote: My point is not that Billy takes bad players. It's that he almost never takes the guy that really helps us the most. Frankly, where we pick every year, I don't find it that difficult to take a good player. That is almost guaranteed picking as high as we do every year. The key is taking the players that give us the quantum leap that we all want. Giving Billy credit for taking good players when he could have had GREAT players doesn't make good sense. And I would hope even KB21 would admit that Billy ran this past draft like a rank amateur. Mr. Secrecy promising a marginal #5 (at best) player that he was going to be the guy...without even working out the top 5 players? BK didn't even bother to work out Shelden, and all I can do is ask WHY??? Being so sure about a player that you don't do all of your homework is arrogant and negligent. Just for grins, why didn't we work out Roy? Just for the heck of it? Do I even need to respond. Your first line says players that would best help us. So you think Roy coming off the bench getting 5-10 pts vs shoring up interior D with a cheap young player is what helps us best. Ok what ever helps you sleep best at night. You next point that BK coudl get any good player when we pick. Um, do some hw he has had only 2 picks in the top 15. Like I just said some GM's get 4 in the top 15 and cant make it work. I bet Orlando was glad to have that 12th pick not even sign. So I am still waiting for these GREAT players that we missed. I'm not look for marginal diffrences in stats and duplicates at positions. Who is GREAT that we missed. Its not like we had shots at Wade,Lebron,Howard,Bosh, or anyone that is all-star caliber, Not a one.

Pick of the litter? BK has only had 2 top 15 picks. The others were 17 and 22, thats in the lower half of the first round. So two top picks I would say would be the pick of the litter. And of these two you are going to say what we should have had Iggy or Deng instead of Chill. Then Paul instead of Marvin. I see teams that have 3 top 15 picks that I could tear to shreads and you are splitting hairs of Chill vs Iggy. How bout Tor? 4 top 15 picks and only 1 starter. Yep I'd much rather have that.

Ok Hot Sauce you say we dont take the best player, uh? Who taken after Boris is head and shoulders better then him? Who taken after Chill and Smoove are head and shoulders better? (I really want you to look at Iggy and Deng's numbers befroe you respond. When I say head and shoulders as being the best player I dont mean 4 pts. and 3 less rebs) Then with Marvin everyone predraft said it was Marvin and Bogut. Most laughed that Mil. wouldnt take Marvin. He still hasnt a chance to show what he can do and is 4 years younger the Paul. He was the best player at the time. Hell, if you want to use that you BELIEVED Paul was better on draft night, I cant wait to see what you think of Utah's GM. Billy wanted a scorer and see's the future in Marvin. Utah wanted a PG and shocker they took Chris Paul, oh wait damnt they didnt. Can you imagine the gaul of a team to draft a PG ahead of Chris Paul. How could they? They couldnt have, I must be wrong? Oh my a PG taken before Paul. Imagine that a team didnt even have Paul as their top PG.

So you say we dont take players that help us. Your right so our biggest problem last year was post defense. We led the league in most pts allowed in the paint and were near the bottom in total pts allowed. So please on gods green earth would you draft a player (Roy,Foye,Gay) that does not address your biggest need. Not to mention you have one of the best players in the league at the postion they play. So I assume if LA was in our position they shoudl have taken Roy because he is so f'n amazing never mind this Kobe guy they have. No so to address the problem of being last in the league in interior defense, we go out and draft a two time defensive player of the year and an all-american. Damn now why would we do that??? Geez. I will be the first to admit I wasnt sold on Sheldon, I can flat out stand up and say I wanted us to trade down and get O'Bryant. Sorry I dont have the hindsight you guys have. So when rumors float that Sheldon the defensive player Billy wanted might go 8th, and the 6th and 7th teams aren't willing to trade what do u do? You take him, Its not rocket science. So how has it impacted us, no he isnt scoring 20 pts per game like Roy we have guys that do that. But sidenote tell me where Roy gets his 19 shot attempts in our lineup. You going to take shots from JJ? If hew is our PG we wouldnt be running the up tempo game everyone wants. No it has impacted us though in the fact we are leading the league in pts allowed per game. We havent let a team score 100 yet,oh and the team we lost to due to a poor shooting night, is undefeated and we held them to 12 pts below their season avg. Yep, glad we drafted Roy to help with that defence. You state that Billy doesnt draft to fit his biggest needs. I would beg to differ there Chief.

Before you go nuts saying this guy and that guy, make sure they were available at the time we picked. Ala Harris for Dallas was gone when it was our pick. Im just showing that most GM's have had at least one tank. Orlando for instence drafted Howard and Nelson, well duh you had the number one pick how hard is that to chose. But they also drafted a guy in the first round in a higher spot then smoove or Diaw that chose to stay in Europe. I dont call that a good pick at all. Seattle has 3 project big men and Ridnour who was demoted this year, and has more TO's then any Atl point guard.

Call it a slow day at work, but just to show what we are saying by picks better GM, here are teams drafts for 2003,2004,2005 since the 2006 rookies havent played enough to judge they will not be included. The teams are ranked in avg. pick number. This only includes 1st rounders. SO logically the teams with the lower draft postion should be worse picks. Those at the top of the list have had picks of better caliber players. Avg Pick 1) 4.5 Mil- 8)TJ Ford, 1)Andrew Bogut 2) 5.5 Cle- 1)Lebron James, 10)Luke Jackson 3) 5.6 Chi- 7)Kirk Hinrich, 3)Ben Gordon, 7)Loul Deng 4) 6.6 Cha- 2)Emkea Okafor, 5)Raymond Felton,13)Sean May 5) 7.3 LAC- 6)Kaman, 4) Livingston, 12)Yaraslov Korolev 6) 8.5 NYK- 9)Frye, 8)Sweetney 7) 8.8 Tor- 4)Bosh, 8)Arajuo, 7)Villenueva, 16)J. Graham 8) 9 Phi- 9)Iguedola 9) 10 Was- 10)Jarvis Hayes 10) 10.3 GST- 11)Pietrus, 11)Biedrinis, 9)Diogiu 11) 11.8 Atl- 22)Boris, 6)Chill, 17)Smoove, 2)Marvin 12) 12 Orl- 16)R. Gains, 1)Howard, 20)Nelson, 11)Vazquez 13) 13.3 Uta- 20)Pavlovic, 14)Humphries, 16)Snyder, 3)Deron 14) 13.6 NO - 19)West, 18) JR Smith, 4) Paul 15) 16 Sea- 12)Collison, 15)Ridnour, 12)Swift, 25)Petro 16) 16.6 Den- 3)Melo, 20)Julis Hodge, 27) Linos Kleiza 17) 17.6 Mia- 5)Wade, 19)Dorell Wright, 29)Wayne Simon 18) 18 Det- 2)Darko, 26)Delfino, 26)Jason Maxell 19) 18.3 Por- 24)Outlaw, 13)Telfair, 22)Khyrpa, 23)Monia, 6)Jack, 22)Martell Wbster 20) 18.6 Dal- 30)Howard, 5)Harris, 21)Pavel Podkolzine 21) 19 NJN- 23)Zoran Planic 22) 19.5 PHX- 18)Cabarkaba, 21)Nate Robinson 23) 20 Bos- 17)T. bell, 21)D. Jones, 15)Jefferson, 18)Green, 24) West, 25) Allen 24) 20.3 Mem- 14)Banks, 28)Perkins, 19)Warrick 25) 20.5 Min- 27)Nbudi Ebi, 14)Rashd McCants 26) 20.6 LAL- 25)Cook, 27)Vujaecic, 10)Bynum 27) 23 Ind- 29)Harrison, 17)Granger 28) 24 Hou- 24) Luther Head 29) 24.5 Sac- 26) Kevin Martin, 23) F. Garcia 30) 28.3 SA- 29)Barbosa, 28) Udrih, 28) Ian Mahiuni Have fun but name 5 teams with better total picks, not just one guy cause they had a high pick and then compare that years pick wtih Atl. Name 5 teams with better drafts. PLEASE. I will give you with avg picks worse then ours Dal, NO, and Utah have done better.

WOW!!! You should be banned for life from this board. This is the same problem all no Hawks fans have. BK has been here now into his 4th season. 4 not 6 or 7 like you say. 4. Count that 1,2,3,4. So he has had 3 full years and 3 games into number 4. If we make a playoff push or even win 35 + games you cant tell me taking a team from max salary cap with old tired palyers, to a young exiting cap space having possible playoff team in year 5 isnt the greatest turnaround in the NBA in the last 10 years. So what has he horribly messed up on. So you say he is a god awful drafter lets review: 2003: 21. Atlanta Hawks (from Indiana) Boris Diaw-Riffiod, G/F, France 21st pick overall, while he didnt fit our system he was rightly or wrongly the MIP of the leauge and is a decent player. From the end of the 1st round I would say that pick right there was better then any Babcock ever made. 2004: NO. TEAM SELECTION 1 Orlando Dwight Howard | F | 6-11 | 240 SW Atlanta Christian Academy (Ga.) 2 Charlotte (from LAC) Emeka Okafor | F-C | 6-10 | 252 Connecticut 3 Chicago Ben Gordon | G | 6-3 | 200 Connecticut 4 L.A. Clippers (from CHA) Shaun Livingston | G | 6-7 | 175 Peoria Central HS (Ill.) 5 Washington Devin Harris | G | 6-3 | 185 Wisconsin | Rights traded to DAL 6 Atlanta Josh Childress | F | 6-8 | 210 Stanford 7 Phoenix Luol Deng | F | 6-8 | 220 Duke | Rights traded to CHI 8 Toronto Rafael Araujo | C | 6-11 | 290 Brigham Young 9 Philadelphia Andre Iguodala | F | 6-6 | 207 Arizona 10 Cleveland Luke Jackson | F | 6-7 | 215 Oregon 11 Golden State Andris Biedrins | F | 6-11 | 240 Latvia 12 Seattle Robert Swift | C | 7-0 | 245 Bakersfield HS (Calif.) 13 Portland Sebastian Telfair | G | 6-0 | 165 Abraham Lincoln HS (N.Y.) 14 Utah Kris Humphries | F | 6-9 | 235 Minnesota 15 Boston Al Jefferson | F | 6-10 | 265 Prentiss HS (Miss.) 16 Utah (from NYK/PHO) Kirk Snyder | G | 6-6 | 225 Nevada 17 Atlanta (from MIL/DEN/DET) Josh Smith | F | 6-9 | 210 Oak Hill Academy (Va.) 18 New Orleans J.R. Smith | G | 6-6 | 220 St. Benedict’s Prep (N.J.) 19 Miami Dorell Wright | F | 6-7 | 210 Leuzinger HS (Calif.) 20 Denver Jameer Nelson | G | 6-0 | 190 St. Joseph's | Rights traded to ORL 21 Utah (from HOU) Pavel Podkolzin | C | 7-5 | 260 Russia | Rights traded to DAL 22 New Jersey Viktor Khryapa | F | 6-9 | 210 Russia | Rights traded to POR 23 Portland (from MEM) Sergei Monia | F | 6-8 | 220 Russia 24 Boston (from DAL) Delonte West | G | 6-4 | 180 St. Joseph's 25 Boston (from DET) Tony Allen | G | 6-4 | 213 Oklahoma State 26 Sacramento Kevin Martin | G | 6-7 | 185 Western Carolina 27 L.A. Lakers Sasha Vujacic | G | 6-7 | 193 Slovenia 28 San Antonio Beno Udrih | G | 6-3 | 203 Slovenia 29 Indiana David Harrison | C | 7-0 | 250 Colorado Please tell me who else from picks 6-29 are heads and shoulders above the two we picked. Iggy, Deng, and Chillz are the same exact players. That is a blindfold pick at who is better. So who should Billy have taken with the 17th pick. You mock BK how bout Rafel at 7, that was a winner. 2005: 2 Marvin Williams, I will give you Paul might be the better pick right now at this moment. But you cant tell me Deron or anyone of those other guys are. Marvin is still 19 and is looking to breakout you are condemming this pick 1 year and only 4 starts into a 19yr olds career. LOL. We all knew Paul was going to be better one year out he was a seasoned college vet. Lets revist at the end of this year or next year. So please tell me if you would rather have these drafts or say Babcocks drafts, of Koncack, Lauderdale, Demar, Ed Gray, etc. There isnt one team in the NBA that can say they have there last 3 1st rd draft picks are all starting in the NBA. Hell in just 2004's draft players behind Chill in the 1st rd; only 5 are starters and one is Josh Smith. So in 22 picks by other GMS only 4 are starting in this league. So I guess all those other GM's are lousy too, uh.

Hell while we are at it im pretty sure within 99.9% certainty that BK is also responsable for global warming, the war in iraq, raising gas prices, west nile virus, the bird flu, Hurricane Katrina, anything else we want to through on there. First you are whining about a NBDL player not being picked up and now you are bitching about a 2nd rd pick. Second round picks arent guranteed money for a reason. They are mostly you projects, long shots, and role players. Salim does fill a roll, with him on the court he extends defenses. He doesnt even have to have the ball, and he clears a little bit more up in the lane for others to due his man having to come out and guard him. He have needed that since Smitty left. Beside JJ and Marvin, ok I'll toss in Chillz to a smaller extent, who makes a defender stay out and respect the jumper. It been three games and it has been noted he has been slowed by that nagging leg injury and he is coming off the shoulder injury as well. Calm down. He is a bit role player at this point. What more do you want from a second round pick. I want you to go through the last 5 drafts, I will bet not even 50% of 2nd rounders are on current NBA rosters, and about 25% even average more then 10 minutes a game. The Hawks are finally showing signs of turning the corner (I'm the biggest Hawks homer/optimist, but its too early to say playoffs, but I will hope), and yet you are whining like a 5 year old about a NBDL training camp invitee and a 2nd round pick. WTF ?!?!?! I suppose all the other 30 some odd picks before Monta should be admonished too. I'm going to dub you "Tom Brady Hindsight bitching queen". I suppose all the picks in the 4 plus rounds before Tom Brady were poor picks. If Oak, Tex, NYJ, or Ari, had drafted him instead of the nobody they drafted in the 5th rd they would have a ring too by now uh. Gee wish they all knew that before the draft. Sometimes players surprise even the people in the know. But you cant tell me that drafting another highschool kid after taking one the year before and a 19yr old in the first round of that draft BK wouldnt have been ransacked by the media and fans. We already had the yougnest team in NBA history, then you want to draft a HS point guard to run it. We needed some guys that have actually played a game against players beside a pimpled 18 year old HS senior. Because HS PGs have such a great track record yep, wait oh only Telfair now in his 3rd year has even come close, yep why was every GM so stupid, that was the obvious pick. Damn.

Walter please read carefully before responding sometimes. Nobody was saying the issue was between Zaza and Big Greek. My issue I took note was that if any small detial doesn't fit with certain Squawkers ideas they throw BK under the bus. My point was that some are willing to call this a folly and make a point of how BK is wrong again, but dont show the positives. My entire response was to show that people call BK out for the most assanine stuff, but won't give him credit for his good decision. That is my biggest problem with this board. I dont post much but I read most everything that goes on. People are willing to take to task Bk for not signing a 3 pt avg NBDL player, even after Joe Dumars passed on him. But will gloss over the fact he signed a 22 year old hustling, doouble double machine for 1 million a year. I dont agree with, but some posters believe he is our second option right now and we got him on a 4 year deal for cheap. Woody and BK take heat for every little thing that goes wrong, but dont get any credit when things do go right. If they deserve the blame they also deserve the praise. We still have the youngest team in the NBA, Any true fan knew it would take sometime. We are still ahead of teams like Chi, Wash, Den, etc in terms of rebuilding we are in year 3 it takes most teams 4 or 5 years to complete it. Im not saying we are complete but we are ahead of those teams pace. Also everyone loves to hate on Billy for not taking Paul. But I love everyone has 20/20 hindsight. I for one am still happy wtih the Marvin pick(Actually you can go back I wanted a PG, but actually Deron not Paul, I just think its funny out of fans and media, predraft Marvin and Bogut were the consensus 1 and 2. Not a single GM would have not done what Billy did. He drafts Paul and it doesnt work out, and Marvin develops he is probably even more of a laughing stock. EVERYONE had us picking Marvin so we do and then its still not right. God I wish I had everyones hindsight before making decisions.

From CBSSportsline, During his summer stint as a member of the U.S. national team, Dwyane Wade found himself subjected to plenty of good-natured teasing. He'd hear taunts about his rising popularity, his recent championship and even his Gatorade commercial. You've seen it. The one with the big heads on children's bodies. "I'm gonna be K.G." Just stop right there, Dwyane Wade. You're not the best of the best -- yet. (Getty Images) "I'm D-Wade." A lot of kids want to be D-Wade these days. The Miami guard has become a very big fish, and the other fish don't let him forget about it. It has nothing to do with keeping him humble -- Wade has a firm grip on that -- but rather a sign of admiration and respect. It's what the old guard used to do to Michael Jordan. LeBron James might be the "King," but D-Wade is the "Ring." This is his moment. There also was a time when Kobe Bryant could do no wrong. He owns as many championship rings as Wade has played seasons, but has endured a lifetime's worth of drama since he claimed his last one. Those are the resumes of the two contenders for the final No. 1 spot in these positional rankings we've been bringing you all month. Kobe and D-Wade, forever linked in history as Shaquille O'Neal tag-team partners, can now also be the subject of a great water cooler debate. They're the best shooting guards to come along since Jordan, but forced to choose, who's better? Right now, despite Wade's summer surge, it's still Bryant. Hope these message boards are ready to be bombarded. While Wade's dynamic style captured a title, he's still not as complete as Bryant, whose Lakers barely managed to make the playoffs. Although Wade's jumper is getting deadlier by the day, he still lacks consistency. Once he gets the perimeter stroke down, there really will be no way to guard him. Bryant is already there, as he should be, given his tenure in the league. It's hard to believe, but Bryant will start his 11th season when things tip off in late October. The ride has been a wild one, drawing him as many detractors as fans, but no one can deny he's gifted. Rankings comparison 2006 2005 Stock 1. K. Bryant 1 SAME 2. D. Wade 2 SAME 3. R. Allen 3 SAME 4. R. Hamilton 7 5. V. Carter 4 6. M. Redd 11 7. J. Johnson -- 8. M. Ginobili 5 9. J. Richardson 10 10. L. Hughes 9 Complete 2005 rankings If you want someone to take the final shot of a game, nine times out of 10, Bryant will be your choice. Wade has notched his share of vital game winners throughout his short career, relying on imperial one-on-one skills to get to where he wants to go, but he's not the master yet. Bryant has put in his dues, and although Wade is clearly on the fast track, the veteran still holds a slight edge. Debate this all year if you must. It's definitely worthy, and probably the reason the league schedule-makers are banking on another Heat-Lakers matchup to draw in the Christmas Day crowd. The O'Neal-Bryant feud is done, but that doesn't mean Kobe and Wade can't be rivals. 1. Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers: He'll sport jersey No. 24 this season, a move he says signals the start of the second half of his career. Act II is undoubtedly his own now. He's a grown man, and the Lakers are his to build back up. The franchise's fate is in his control, and Lakers fans are right to be optimistic. Last season will be remembered for the 81-point night against Toronto, but the greatest development came during the playoffs, when Bryant bought into the team concept and proved his greatness by making the game easier for his mates. That shows you that he and Phil Jackson may finally be on the same page. 2. Dwyane Wade, Miami: It's scary to think that he still has significant upside, isn't it? It feels like Wade has taken over the world over the past 18 months or so, and the hype machine surrounding him is really only getting started. Signed through 2009, he'll have a great shot to pad that ring total with Shaq in tow and championship experience already in his back pocket. Ray Allen, Sonics (Getty Images) 3. Ray Allen, Seattle: Lost in the disappointment of last year's Sonics season was how good Allen was. It came down to the final game, but he broke the record for 3-point makes, knocking down 269 at a 41-percent clip. Allen also averaged a career-best 25.1 points per game, keeping Seattle from being worse than it already was. He is the Clyde Drexler of his day, seemingly always in a contemporary's shadow despite being consistently great himself. 4. Richard Hamilton, Detroit: I'll buy into the theory that if he was on another squad where he had to shoulder more responsibility, Rip's rep would be larger than it is. Of course, he wouldn't have a ring to show for it, and that's really what matters. Hamilton is brilliant moving without the ball and coming off screens, and he's a standout defender. Vince Carter, Nets (Getty Images) 5. Vince Carter, New Jersey: There's no doubt he's back. He stayed healthy in his first full season with the Nets and played with great energy throughout, averaging 24.2 points and 4.3 assists and tying his career best with 5.8 rebounds per game. He's still among the best in the league at taking over a game. 6. Michael Redd, Milwaukee: Redd gave Detroit fits in the playoffs, shooting 52 percent and averaging more than 27 per game. That legitimized him as a star. Had the Ohio native opted to return home to play for Cleveland, the Cavs might be a championship front-runner this season. Instead, he's being paid handsomely to take the Bucks to new heights. So far, he's off to a good start. 7. Joe Johnson, Atlanta: Given the division his acquisition caused in the Hawks front office, he couldn't afford to be a bust. Fortunately, he wasn't. Johnson needed time to adjust, but by season's end he was at ease with the go-to role and regularly putting up big nights. His versatility is his greatest asset, and his best days are ahead of him. Regardless of how good Boris Diaw has turned out to be for Phoenix, you can't argue with picking up Johnson now. He's worth every penny. 8. Manu Ginobili, San Antonio: Momentum from a magical year in which he won Olympic gold and an NBA title was tempered by injuries last season. He played at the FIBA World Championships this summer, so it's not like he took the entire offseason to rest, but all reports indicate he's healthier than he's been in some time. Ginobili's game is unique and dynamic, flopping aside. 9. Jason Richardson, Golden State: He hasn't gotten an All-Star sniff despite being a dominant scorer the last three seasons, averaging a career-best 23.2 last year. He hasn't been able to carry the Warriors to the playoffs and still struggles with his shot selection, no doubt in part to the unending frustration he has seen in the Bay Area. 10. Larry Hughes, Cleveland: Injuries derailed his start in Cleveland and have been a perennial obstacle of late. The experiment with LeBron hasn't really gotten off the ground yet, but it does sound promising, given the opportunity to get on the same page. Hughes is one of the NBA's top thieves and has the right attitude to be the perfect second option. 11. Gerald Wallace, Charlotte: In case you failed to notice, Wallace was among the league's breakout performers last year. He showed off an improved offensive game and was his usual self on the defensive end, making a difference with his athleticism and penchant for steals. With Adam Morrison on board, Wallace will switch from small forward to shooting guard but will still draw the tougher assignments on the wing. 12. Shane Battier, Houston: Jeff Van Gundy is going to let Battier run wild against opposing offensive threats, and that's going to make him one of the most valuable offseason acquisitions in the league. Battier bonded with Bruce Bowen at U.S. national team tryouts and seems poised to pick up the stopper torch. Battier isn't too shabby on the other end of the floor either. 13. Ben Gordon, Chicago: He's streaky and undersized, but can he destroy you when he gets it going. Having a defined role and increased experience should help him get off to a better start than he did while undergoing a sophomore slump, which lasted until he broke out around March. 14. Raja Bell, Phoenix: Kobe's best friend is carving out quite the niche for himself in the Valley of the Sun, transforming himself from productive sub to a valuable cog on a title contender. He has seized his opportunity by coming through in the clutch repeatedly. 15. Wally Szczerbiak, Boston: He seemed to fit in well after coming over from Minnesota, not that it translated into team success. He and Paul Pierce could form a productive wing combo, defensive proficiency notwithstanding. But Szczerbiak has to continue the positive momentum enjoyed last season following a few down years. 16. Cuttino Mobley, L.A. Clippers: Although he scored a bunch of points with Sacramento, he never really felt at home after being separated from buddy Steve Francis and Orlando in one of the worst moves made this decade (for Doug Christie). He looked like his old self with the L.A. Clippers last year, despite his scoring dipping to its lowest point since 1999. Mobley just made a difference, and does so wherever he plays. 17. Bonzi Wells, unaffiliated: That's a neat word -- unaffiliated. In this case, it doesn't mean no one wants him, but it does mean there's a lot of negotiating to be done. Wherever he goes, let's hope Wells can avoid off-court trouble and become a productive asset worthy of the contract he feels he deserves next season. 18. Jerry Stackhouse, Dallas: He's my early favorite for the Sixth Man Award, provided he keeps coming off the bench. Stack looked rejuvenated in the playoffs, taking big shots and relishing key minutes. If the Mavs make it back to the Finals, he'll be a big reason why. 19. Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia: He has a world of ability, but it hasn't appeared in more than flashes through his first two seasons. He has been a serviceable wing, but should be dominating games with his athleticism, particularly defensively. He needs to step it up. 20. Kevin Martin, Sacramento: Martin will be in the running for Most Improved Player, because he's about to blow up for the Kings. Freed from the shadow of Peja Stojakovic, he has an opportunity to become a huge scoring threat. Someone's come a long way from Zanesville, Ohio, and Western Carolina. Also considered: Stephen Jackson, Indiana; Desmond Mason, New Orleans/Oklahoma City; Morris Peterson, Toronto; Eddie Jones, Memphis; DeShawn Stevenson, Washington; Brandon Roy, Portland; Michael Finley, San Antonio; Fred Jones, Toronto; Flip Murray, Detroit; J.R. Smith, Denver. So I still think thats a little low, but I can live with it.

Ok show me one stat that puts current TMac and Vince in that catagory?? Are we looking at actually play or are we just eating what teh NBA and marketing people throw at you as force fed stars. I am willing to give you that there is an upper level of stars, but lets not put Vince and TMac up there. Two reasons: First being health. This is an important factor. TMac missed almost a 1/3 of the season last year, and for someone his age it has to be bothersome that you have chronic problems already. Secondly, are you really going to put a guy up there that has admitted to tanking and taking games off????? Vince only plays for the money, bad last 2 years, but how much you wnat to bet he balls out this year because its a contract year. Secondly, total game. Yes the list is a nice collection of scores. The stat I pointed out included rebs and asst. Wade, Lebron, and to some extent Kobe make their teams better by having an all around game. This is why JJ was rated higher as an overall player then TMac and Vince. With defense, steals, and asst one can be more important to their team. JJ every night not only shoulders the offensive load, but is always covering the opposing teams number one. Loook at the Philly game he had to chase AI everywhere and then come down to the other end and try and score. Thats what Lebron, Wade, and Kobe do. you cant tell me Vince plays a lic of D against anyone. Same for McGrady. Their sole job is shoot and shoot some more. JJ can score 31 on 19 shots meaning less wasted poss. TMac might get you the 30 but on 25 or more shots. Thats not being very efficent.