60% of GM's think LA repeats

[Guest]

Pip did ok with the "built for Michael" Bulls team during MJ's wanderlust...the foul that wasn't there...

And KG's team hasn't gotten any further than those Bulls teams...

[Guest]

What are you smoking?

21, 12, and 5. Enuff said. I won't even talk about KG's defense and ability to carry a team."

Carry a team to where?

Pippen?Well the year MJ retired Scottie carried

the Bulls futher than KG has has carried a team

in the playoffs.

KG also goes away when it counts the most...that

doesn't mean alot to you, but it does to most other

people.

You are just a hater.

[Diesel]

Yeah, but Pippen had a vet team that had won a few championships. KG has Wally and "20 games" t. Brandon. Pippen had Grant, Kukoc, Paxon, Harper, Luc, and Pistol Pete Meyers. Plus he had the triangle. And in those 2 yrs, the Bulls declined. Take Shaq away from the Lakers. I guarantee you that the Lakers will be around .500 and will be fighting the Clippers for a playoff spot.

[nbafan]

The basis for your assertion that Kobe is not a top 5 player is that he has never had to carry the Lakers without Shaq and that when they have played without Shaq they are a .500 team. You also contrast that with TMac, Payton, KG, Kidd who have "carried" a team. So it appears that you elevate a player's status if he is the leader of a mediocre team. None of these guys have ever lead a really good team (sorry the Nets are a 5 or 6 seed if they played in the West). So using your argument, if the Lakers play .500 ball without Shaq, Kobe would have proven himself in some way that he didn't by being selected all NBA and winning 3 titles.

Also, as I've said in previous posts, you can't evaluate a player's performance solely on statistics. You can't say definitively that swapping Kobe and KG would still lead to Laker titles. KG would need to play almost exclusively facing the basket and would have to integrate his game with Shaq's. Who knows if that would happen.

I have no problem with your top 5 list. Those guys are all great players, but your arguments against Kobe are ridiculous. BTW, you must have been watching a different Portland/Lakers series in 2000. Portland did a great job defensively on Shaq (he had 1 basket through 3 qtrs in game 7). The Lakers scrapped the triangle for large portions of the games and used Kobe's ability to break down his defender and get in the lane to set up other players. He did not have huge scoring games but they would not have won without him.

[Diesel]

I've watched Kobe play and I have watched MY 5 play... Let me give them to you again:

1 Duncan.

2. Shaq

3. KG

4. TMac

5. Payton

And from watching these guys play, Kobe has not shown me in his play that he is better than any of them. TO ME, these are the top 5 players in the NBA.

If I were choosing teams, I certainly would take KG before Kobe. It's that simple.

That's beside the Shaq factor.

Here's my points on why.

All these players save maybe Payton are better defensive players than Kobe. Payton is marginal because his steals went down. But when he played man on man, it seems that he was still better at positional defense than Kobe.

I mentioned these players being better at carrying a team because Kobe has never had to carry a team a full season. The times that he has been the focus of a teams defense, he disappeared. Portland during the first championship run.... Where was Kobe? Glen Rice did more in beating the Blazers than Kobe did. Philly, during the second Championship? Where was Kobe? Iverson was Using and abusing Kobe and Fisher. Because Philly played man to man with Shaq, Kobe was able to get open like he often had at other times. The time that Kobe did score a lot, he was being gaurded by a man with a broken foot and a man with a broken Leg (Snow and Lynch) Sactown, 3rd Championship... Where was Kobe?? Bibby was Busting Kobe's butt on national tv and yet many of you must have missed that Series? Bibby made Kobe's defense look like Popcorn. And on Offense what happened to Kobe??? Had Peja had not been hurt... We know what would have happened.

However the same is not true of Tmac, KG, and Payton. Damn what did Tmac average in this yrs playoffs? 50 something? I don't think Kobe could. Really. Put Kobe in a situation where he is the focus of the defense and I bet he crumbles. Just watch the Lakers at the start of the season for a preview.

[Traceman]

I remember guys like you who had the very same hate for Jordan. They all used to say yeah he can score but he's a ballhog. He's no Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, etc.

You're entitled to your opinion just like BHD is entitled to his opinion that Bird and Stockton are not in the Top 50 all time greatest players. You both can make your argments and ignore what everyone else sees. That is the beauty of America.

I can definitely see your argument for Duncan carrying his team because D Rob is nowhere near the player he was bac kwhen he was NVP of the league but T Mac and KG? Where exactly have they carried their teams? Neither of those guys have been past the first round of the playoffs? T Mac? He got his a$* busted by Baron Davis after he talked all that smack. Davis did every bit as much to T Mac as Bibby did to Kobe. Davis was the best player in that series, not T Mac. That just goes to show how difficult it is for guys the size of Kobe and T Mac to guard smaller, quicker guys like Bibby and Davis.

KG? Duncan outplays him SIGNIFICANTLY every time they matchup in a playoff situation and THAT is why he can't get past the first round. KG is a great player, but he's not better than Kobe.

Saying that SAC would have won if Peja had been healthy is like saying LA would have swept them if Shaq's toe hadn't been hurt. There is no way you can know that and both team's had to deal with significant injuries.

As for watching the start of the season for LA and judging what Kobe does, his supporting cast is not very good. Who will be LA's 2nd option? Fox? Fisher? Who will start until Shaq gets back? Walker, Horry, Fox, Kobe and Fisher is not going to scare many teams. If they double (and triple) Kobe the whole game, who will score? That being said, I'll bet Kobe comes out and puts up some huge numbers and LA will win their share of games until Shaq gets back.

[Guest]

" Damn what did Tmac average in this yrs playoffs? 50 something?"

Who else was supposed to score? It's bogus to simply quote scoring average (look at Stack two seasons ago)...

[nbafan]

It would be nice if you occasionally used facts to back up your assertions. Bibby did not "Bust Kobe's butt on national television". Kobe only played Bibby when he and Brian Shaw were on the floor together. Fischer had Bibby most of the time. Kobe and Jackson argued in the papers because Kobe wanted to guard him. Jackson was attempting to rest him because he was still taking fluids from the food poisoning and he was carrying a bigger offensive load because Shaq was playing fewer minutes because of his foot.

I've already addressed the Portland series, apparently you don't understand enough about basketball to recognize a player's contribution to a basketball game, beyond what you read in the box score.

Finally, you may not be a Kings fan, but the repeated whining about Sacramento being the better team, the referees favoring the Lakers, and Peja being hurt are pathetic.

The Lakers had 4 starters with injuries/ailments that would have kept them out of regular season games. Aside from Shaq and Kobe, Samaki Walker had knee and elbow injuries that reduced his playoff numbers to half his regular season numbers and Rick Fox was playing with several leg, back, and shoulder injuries. Over the course of the series the number of free throws shot were nearly even, including one early series game where the Kings shot dramatically more than the Lakers. The Lakers played through this and handled the pressure down the stretch. The Kings did not. In the late 90's the Lakers talked about their talent and how Utah got all the calls, all the breaks, and didn't have injuries. When Jackson came on board they stopped whining and battled down the stretch. Maybe if the Kings would shut up and play, they might win something.

[Guest]

Gary seems that he was still better at positional defense than Kobe."

Where was Paytons defense againest Tony Parker

when Tony ran the ball str8 down Gary's throat?A

19 year old rookie was busting "The Glove'a** in

the playoffs.

Gary Payton looked like a helpless puppy againest

Parker on defense.Gary got schooled by a teenager.

[Guest]

Paxon, Harper, Luc, and Pistol Pete Meyers."

Great list of players!hahaha

KG would still have a better team than the

Lakers if Shaq doesn't play...

Terrell Brandon

Wally

KG

Joe Smith

Rasho N(Who is becoming a pretty good center

because McHale is teaching him post moves)

Lakers would have:

Derek Fisher

Kobe Bryant

A 36 year old Rick Fox

Robert Horry a backup

Samake Walker a 4/6 player at best

Which team is more talented?It's easy

to say the Lakers would have a .500

team(In the tough West)because all

4 other players are backups.However

all the Wolves guys are starting worthy.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

I can definitely see your argument for Duncan carrying his team because D Rob is nowhere near the player he was bac kwhen he was NVP of the league but T Mac and KG? Where exactly have they carried their teams? Neither of those guys have been past the first round of the playoffs? T Mac? He got his a$* busted by Baron Davis after he talked all that smack. Davis did every bit as much to T Mac as Bibby did to Kobe. Davis was the best player in that series, not T Mac. That just goes to show how difficult it is for guys the size of Kobe and T Mac to guard smaller, quicker guys like Bibby and Davis.

KG? Duncan outplays him SIGNIFICANTLY every time they matchup in a playoff situation and THAT is why he can't get past the first round. KG is a great player, but he's not better than Kobe.

---

What you need to do is get past your Kobitis.

Take Kobe off the Lakers and replace him with KG or Tmac. Will the Lakers not go to finals and win? IN fact, if you put KG and Shaq on the same team, that Teams Sweeps its way to the NBA Championship. Nobody knows what Kobe has to offer without Shaq. However, everyone can plainly see that KG and Tmac has been one man teams and have taken their teams places where a lot of other talented teams didn't. Tmac took his team further than Milwaukee with all of its stars didn't go. Same can be said about KG. IN fact, it's ridiculous for you to argue that KG is any less great because he couldn't get pass Duncan and the Spurs. What is KG and Tmac working with on their respective teams? It would be good to see Shaq sit out the season with his bad toe so that Kobe can be exposed.

[Traceman]

You think you know more about talent than ALL 30 GMs including Jerry West! HAAAAAAA!!! Talk about a joke! You called T Mac Vince Carter's shadow and insisted that Jamaal Mashburn is a better player than Vince Carter and you want me to take your word over Jerry West's regarding whether or not Kobe is a top 5 player? Please! According to you Shawn Marion is the "Put Back King" but that Clarence Weatherspoon, now there's a player! You have NO credibility when it comes to evaluating talent! NONE!

[Diesel]

Simple...

IS Kobe better than KG and Tmac?

If so, what is your basis?

Defense? Can't be.

offense? Can't be.

Ability to carry a team? Can't be.

Tell me Kobelover... what's your basis.

Showing up Big in Big games?? Can't be.....

I'm just lMAO at your baseless credit of Kobe. BTW, don't let other people tell you who to like. You know like NBC, GMs. Look over the facts. Is Kobe better than these 2 guys? I don't think you can even begin to give a worthy argument on why you thinkit. Other than because that's what the world told you to think?

If you go by the Numbers... Kobe gets slaugtered.

If you go by watching games... Kobe gets massacred.

So what, KG can't beat Duncan and the spurs all by himself? Give KG Shaq and Phil Jackson and I bet money that KG and Shaq sweeps through every team they play and they will win without a doubt.

[nbafan]

Let's state this simply:

if you don't think Kobe Bryant would lead the league in scoring if he played for Orlando or Minnesota you don't know very much about basketball.

Kobe is the best perimeter on the ball defender in the NBA (he is a mediocre post defender)

He is as focused on being the best player in the league as anyone since Jordan.

He is the only player you've mentioned who is required to sublimate his game (and stats) on a nightly basis and still is one of the top scorers in the league

I think you can make a strong case for TMac or KG being the best player in the league, but if they are better than Kobe, the difference is very small.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Kobe is the best perimeter on the ball defender in the NBA (he is a mediocre post defender)

---

You must never watch Tmac at all?

Statwise...

Kobe... .44 bpg, 1.48 Steals per game.

Tmac... .96 bpg, 1.57 Steals per game.

Aside from the stats that show that Tmac is superior to Kobe (is Shaq stopping Kobe from playing defense too?) is the fact that I have seen too many guys go nuts playing against Kobe.

Bibby in the playoffs.

Iverson every time they play.

http://www.nba.com/games/20011225/PHILAL/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20020127/LALPHI/boxscore.html

By the way, do the Lakers win when Shaq is out?

http://www.nba.com/games/20020206/CHILAL/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20020215/ATLLAL/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20020217/LALPOR/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20020212/WASLAL/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20020214/LALSEA/boxscore.html

So on a Shaq out for 5 games stretch... playing Chicago, Atlanta, Portland, Seattle, and Washington... Kobe can only lead the Lakers to 2 wins? Come on. He's supposed to be better than Tmac or KG? KG swept the Hawks.

In reply to:

---

He is as focused on being the best player in the league as anyone since Jordan.

---

What's this mean? You think he's the best player since Jordan? Come on Kobe lover. Don't disrespect Duncan, Shaq, KG, and all the rest who are better than Kobe like that. He need to work on being Better than Paul Pierce.

[nbafan]

Apparently in addition to lack of basketball knowledge, you have limited reading comprehension.

I did not say Kobe is the best defensive player in the league.

I said he is the best perimeter on the ball defender in the league. Blocked shots and steals do not measure this. (btw, Doug Collins, Bill Walton, and Jerry West all have made this statement)

I did not say Kobe is the best player since Jordan. I said he is the most singlemindedly focused on becoming that.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, Kobe rarely defended Bibby in the Sacremento series, Fisher did and the same was true with AI. They will put him on those guys for crucial possessions down the stretch or when Shaw is in the game.

The Lakers are at best a .500 team without Shaq. This has no bearing on what kind of player Kobe is. The Lakers are not big enough to compete with even average teams with size if Shaq isn't in the lineup, even if Kobe scores 50.

If you actually read my posts you would see that I have never said Kobe is better or worse than Duncan, KG, or TMac. I just find it amazing that someone who spends as much time focused on basketball as you seem to, believes that there are more than 1/2 dozen players in the league that are so much better than Kobe that there is no debate. You won't find a single GM or coach that would agree with you.

[Guest]

another bubble buster....When we played Orlando

Toni took Tmac in the post and abused him.So much

for great defense.Tmac couldn't handle a 34 year old

Toni Kukoc in the post.

[Traceman]

the argument now. I already told you that a strong argument can be made for T Mac being better than Kobe. I even conceded that KG was right there even if I do think Kobe is better. None of that takes Kobe out of the top 5.

As for offense, I think Kobe is a better offensive player than T Mac or KG. If an argument can be made that either of them is a better player than Kobe, the argument has to be made on an all court basis. When it comes down to taking someone one on one, neither of them are as good as Kobe.

Carrying a team? Again, seeing as how T Mac and KG have never been past the first round, where exactly have they carried their team? Shaq carried a lot of teams with a lot of talent but before Kobe came along, how many championships did he win? You said its not Phil's coaching so what is it ? Shaq couldn't win with Eddie Jones, Elden Campbell, Nick Nan Exel, Rick Fox, Robery Horry, Jerome Kersey, Byron Scott, George McCleod, Derek Fisher and Jon Barry. Then, Kobe comes along and he wins 3 titles in a row. Shaq is CLEARLY the better player between the 2 but without Kobe, Shaq has no rings and probably would have no rings.

Showing up in big games? HAAAAAAA! Please! Kobe has made more big baskets in more big games than KG and T Mac COMBINED! After all, how big can a basket be when it comes in or before the first round of the playoffs!

Note - I notice that now, since it fits your argument, you imply that Phil's coaching is a big reason LA has won 3 championships whereas before, you argued that Phil only won the titles because of his talent. It's amazing how good Phil can be as a coach when you are trying to hate on Kobe or how good Kobe can be when you are trying to hate on Phil. Way to go Spin Doctor!

[Diesel]

In order to prove Kobe is not top 5, all I have to do is Justify the guys who I feel are.

I don't think that there was any argument with Shaq, Duncan right?

KG, Tmac are the next two.

In reply to:

---

As for offense, I think Kobe is a better offensive player than T Mac or KG. If an argument can be made that either of them is a better player than Kobe, the argument has to be made on an all court basis. When it comes down to taking someone one on one, neither of them are as good as Kobe.

---

Kobelover NO.....

Both KG and Tmac have tons more ability than Kobe on offense. Offense is more than one on one... But it's also getting the pass off. First off, KG takes people better one on one than Kobe ever could. Who can stop KG? Name one defensive player that has ever stopped him? Not even Duncan can say he's stopped KG.

As far as Tmac... Come on. The man drops 50 points on his opponents in the Playoffs and you say that Kobe is a better offensive player?

In reply to:

---

Carrying a team? Again, seeing as how T Mac and KG have never been past the first round

---

Because they took their teams as far as they would go. Give Kobe the Timberwolves without KG or the Magic without Tmac. I bet Kobe doesn't make the playoffs. In a five game stretch...

Kobe leading the Lakers Lose to Atlanta, Chicago, and Seattle last season. You think he can lead a team anywhere?? Again, watch what happens when Shaq's out.

In reply to:

---

Showing up in big games? HAAAAAAA! Please! Kobe has made more big baskets in more big games than KG and T Mac COMBINED!

---

Name ONE. Don't confuse Kobe with Fisher, Horry, and Fox. Those are the guys who come up Big if Shaq's not showing up. Kobe showboats when the Lakers are up by 12 and you call him clutch... However, when the game is tight, where's Kobe??

[nbafan]

Just to name one: 2000 NBA Finals. Shaq fouls out and Kobe carries them in overtime including game winning rebound put back.

2001 Playoffs: Pick a game. Kobe carried that team through the early rounds before Shaq dominated the Finals.

2002 Playoffs: San Antonio Series Kobe took over the 4th quarter in almost every game.

I not sure what you have been watching, but its not the same thing everybody else is.