Making It Simple For Diesel

[Guest Walter]

Diesel, you have insisted that defense is less important than offense and that with a good offense, defense is unnecessary as you can simply outscore your opponent. Interestingly, you have changed your argument from insisting that defense isn't important to good 1 on 1 defensive players aren't important. This is an entirely different argument. While I disagree, and believe good defense in this league requires at least some good 1 on 1 defenders, I don't disagree that teams can play better defense now than they could before the rules changes while having the same 1 on 1 defensive talent. However, all teams have the same advantage. Thus, it is still up to individual defensive talent (includes coaching, too, but usually not as important as a great defensive player) to make any one team better than another. Still, I question whether you have abandoned your intitial argument to save face with an altogether new argument.

Perhaps a better way to judge this is to do the work for you. Here, I will examine the primary stat to judge offensive and defensive efficiency, FG% and FG% against rankings, for each of the last NBA championship teams listed at Doug's stat site.

Year....Team...FG%...FG% Agst

01-02 Lakers 5th 1st

00-01 Lakers 3rd 11th (without Shaq mostly)

99-00 Lakers 8th 1st

98-99 Spurs 5th 1st

97-98 Bulls 7th 8th

96-97 Bulls 3rd 4th

94-95 Rockets 6th 2nd

93-94 Rockets 9th 3rd

92-93 Bulls 12th 15th

91-92 Bulls 1st 9th

90-91 Bulls 2nd 13th

89-90 Pistons 15th 1st

88-89 Pistons 5th 2nd

Avg..................6.23th...5.46th

While the difference in terms of importance has been shown to be small or less than one ranking point, defense as judged by FG% and FG% against ranking has been shown to be slightly more important in recent NBA basketball history for NBA champion ship winners. Perhaps more importantly, Phil Jackson is the ONLY NBA championship coach to ever win a championship without his team's FG% against ranking not being as good or better than hsi team's own FG%!!! In otherwords, if you are not coached by Phil Jackson you better win the "hard" way, with defense first and foremost! Since the Hawks and most every other team cannot expect to be coached by Phil Jackson (just like most can't wait around for the next Jordan to be on their team), we too should try and win with defense first.

If defense is not important than offense is even less than not important. I don't think one would want to go there. So, defense is important and the stats suggest to win a championship (slightly) more important.

...

And finally, I have asked this queston 3 times now and you have avoided it each time. How did the same rules changes that made defense of such lesser importance than offense also make Dekimbe Mutombo a better player? You insisted at the time the rules changes would significantly increase Dikembe's dominance (although not Theo's for some obvious, playa' hatin' reason), yet you then and/or now insist that these same rules changes that would make a defensive player ONLY in Dikembe more important would make defense more important. You really need to clear up your inconsistency before anyone can be expected to believe a word you say otherwise.

W

[Diesel]

You must first remember the context.

The Original conversation was about Theo and Ira and them being very important.

MY comment was that defense is good, but it's not neccessary. I went on to say that you can get by with an all offensive team UNDER THE NEW RULES.

I know that part baffled and still baffles you because you asked my why is it important that zone defenses are allowed.

To help with your basketball education. If a team can play a zone defense, they can hide their defensive weakness. Like Dallas does NOW. Dallas doesn't have 1 strong one on one defender yet they play good team defense.

To further help you understand.

You asked me about Deke and Why I thought Deke would play better defense (2 yrs ago). 2 yrs ago, I was unaware of how the 3 sec defensive rule worked. I was under the impression that in a zone defense Deke would be able to sit back and play in the lane with the guy he was defending (arm's reach). That being the case, he would never have to leave. However... I'm still unclear as to how refs call that 3 sec violation because it's broken a lot if you assign players. However, if you play zone, you just need to be close.

Back to the original subject.

So I still insist.. That we don't need Theo and Ira to win. We could be just as good or better with Raef Lafrentz and Nick Van Exel or with Lo and Battier. However, it will depend on our ability to play team defense.

BTW.. Because I was talking about the NEW RULES and not the old ones... All that crap you bring up when there was no 8 sec rule or no free double teaming or no zones don't fit here in this discussion...

Sorry.

[Guest Walter]

FIRST, are you admitting you were entirely wrong about the rules changes' impact on Deke?!? Wonderful. I SURE AM GLAD NOBODY LISTENED TO YOU OR WE WOULD BE STUCK WITH A $90 MILLION DOLLAR COMMITMENT TO A 35-43 YEAR OLD PLAYER (OR "screwed" HIM FOR NOTHING)!

Second, how has defense become less important? That is your insistance that somehow defense is no longer as important as it was and much less as important as offense. HELLO?!? DEFENSE IS STILL HALF THE GD GAME! THE NBA DIDN'T SUDDENLY INSIST A TEAM SPEND ONLY A 1/4 OF ITS TIME ON DEFENSE.

Damnit, You simply have to look at the impact Ira helped make last year and both he and Theo are making this year to know your simpleton reasoning is patently false. "Zone Defense" works when I see a zone defense team win the NBA title. I don't see Dallas doing that and I know they haven't come close yet.

And as far as Raef and Nick respectively, if we can do just as well with them as Theo and Ira then I'll take Theo and Ira. They cost half as much!!!!!!!!!!!!! Got it? Lo and Battier? My a** we do as well.

W

[Guest Walter]

...& who just wants to "get by" in this league? Without defense, surely teams can "get by" but it seems that wouldn't be the goal of any NBA team. Maybe your goal for the Hawks but not any team's own goal. "Getting by" is = to winning nothing of importance. Sounds like you and Lenny still belong together.

Lastly, I wouldn't exxpect you to bye into the facts as presented by the stats. It's not like the rules changes changed the game of basketball. It's still half defense and half offense. Maybe one day...nah, keep playing "no 'D'" play station baksetball. It suits you.

W

[Diesel]

You said that Big Country would be better than Deke in 2 yrs.

2 Yrs Later. Big Country Retired in Ok. Eating Flap Jacks every morning. Deke on his way back to the finals.

So much for your prognostication skills there Walter.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Second, how has defense become less important? That is your insistance that somehow defense is no longer as important as it was and much less as important as offense. HELLO?!? DEFENSE IS STILL HALF THE GD GAME!

---

Silly little man. Let me make this REALLY SIMPLE.

Answer this question.

Why do you think D. Stern put in the new rules in the first place?

Answer...

He wanted to improve the flow of the game. He got tired of the Knicks Heat epic defensive battles. He wanted to open up the game and give the advantage to OFFENSIVE PLAY. i.e. Give offense the advantage over defense.

Guess what? It works.

Now teams like Dallas and Sacramento are rewarded because they can put points up on the board.

Let me bring this on home so that even you can understand it.

00-01 Season (Old Rules).

SacTown

avg. 101 ppg

Opp. Avg 95.9%

FG% 44.9%

Opp FG%: 43.2%

Record 55-27 (3rd in West)

01-02 Season (New Rules)

avg 104 ppg

Opp. Avg. 97 ppg

FG% 46.7 %

Opp FG% 44.0%

Record 61-21 (1st in West)

Take Home lesson. Under the old rules, Sactown was definitely a better defensive team.. But that didn't translate into more wins. However, in the New Rules, with a worse defensive team than before... Better offense produced MORE WINS.

Under the old Rules, the lakers and Spurs finished ahead of Sactown. They were better defensive teams. Under the new rules, these teams were still better defensively but they were not better.

Under the Old System... But NY and Miami made the playoffs... 3rd and 4th seeds. Under the new system... Neither did.

Bottom line..> Defense is good to have, but a non defensive team can still be good in the new system...

[Guest]

"Sure, use a zone as a change-up, perhaps to hide a defensive cripple, or to protect a star with foul trouble. Aggressive zone defenses also discourage dribble penetration and cramp pivot play. But I bought into the conventional wisdom that viewed the dependency on zone defenses as a foolish practice in the NBA.

One general manager puts it this way: "You simply cannot win playing zone defense in this league. All an offense has to do is reverse the ball quickly and somebody will be wide open. NBA shooters are just too good to give them open looks. Also, if you flood the paint or overload one side, then the defender in that area is going to have to choose which player to guard."

What are some other standard anti-zone tactics? Having a speedy guard split the two top-most defenders ... then, as the zone collapses around the ball, rotate shooters into the vacated spots. An up-tempo team can also generate good looks before the zoners settle into their assigned areas."

[Guest]

I'll just say this....3 of our 4 losses have happened

when we have gave up 100 points....

[Diesel]

In practice, no NBA team has put together Zone Buster offenses. When Spend time concentrating on that when there are only a handful of teams playing Zone defense?

The other problem is your thought on rotating the ball. These are the pros. Players are a lot better quality atheletes on this level than in college. What that means is that they will be able to rotate just fine.

Why do you think Dallas is playing so well defensively. The zone hinders. Right now, Dallas is proof that a zone can work.

[Inside_Man]

Good thread guys... just want to make a couple of points.

basketball and football are constantly evolving as teams think up new ways to stop other teams new ideas that are working. It's way too early to see the full impact of the zone, as no one as yet has used to to win over the course of a season. If they do, then teams will adjust to beat it. And more teams will start to use it.

The new rules are there to get rid of the old 'illegal defense' which was a nightmare. They are also supposed to increase offense, which sometimes they do, but there also seems to be plenty of games that are record low scoring. To me, the new rules make it easier to play defense as one doesn't need to have a slide rule handy to figure out where to be. And of course, the flow of the game is much better which was another intent.

I wonder if these rules will also make it more likely for a 'team' of very good players to win it all, rather than the team with the 'superstar'? You have to go back to the pistons teams to find champions that had a balance of talent. Imo, the Hawks are taking the balanced talent approach and the new rules make such a move more likely to win a ring rather than having a superstar + 4 role players. We'll see.

On another note, thank you-know-who that we didn't sign Deke, who is disappearing into statistical oblivion this year, and is more likely showing his true age, whatever that is.

Now when does this "10 day contract" thAng next to my handle go away? Heck, I remember the Diesel/Walter bouts from Atlanta Access days!

[Diesel]

You are correct, the new rules take the wins away from Superstar play. NO one man team will be able to win it all. Especially not against a well coached balanced team. Look at Sactown, NJ, Dallas, and even Detroit. These guys are prospering because they have decent balance.

However, one point about Deke. Deke is slipping Statistically because he's now on a team with Good defenders and rebounders. IN Philly he played half a season with often hurt Hill and that was the last time he played with an active PF who could defend and rebound well. With Martin, he gets the total package. A guy who can defend, rebound, and run. I get the feeling however, that Bryan Scott is saving Deke til postseason. He's playing 25 mpg. I know age is having some effect on Deke but I think Deke was brought in for a probably matchup against Western Big Men.

[Jamil]

Sadly, I believe that the end is nearing for Deke. He's really dropped off this season...much more than I think anyone would've anticipated.

But for a guy (probably) closing in on 40, he's still pretty effective. His tank does appear to be nearing empty however.

[Traceman]

I love Deke and I will always appreciate what he brought to this frnachise but he is nowhere near the player he was when Babs traded him to Philly. The excuse that Deke stats are dropping because he is on a team with good defenders and rebounders does not fly. If anything, his rebounding numbers should be higher than ever. K-Mart a good rebounder? Please! Hendu is a MUCH better rebounder than K-Mart and Deke was dominant on the boards when Hendu was along side him. [censored], Big Dog is a better rebounder than K-Mart! If Ira played SF instead of SG, he'd be a better rebounder than K-Mart too. K-Mart does run well and he's an active defender (he still can't handle Reef one on one) but neither of those things should have a negative effect on Deke's ability to hit the boards.

Deke was not acquire solely for the purpose of defending western big men, NJ thought he would help them dominate the eastern big men too. So far, that definitely has not been the case. I think Deke is becoming a role player in a hurry and while he can still play a significant role, he doesn't even resemble the dominant rebounding, shotblocking force that he once was. He can do it in spurts but I don't think he can do it on a consistent basis.

[Diesel]

You still have to look at the balance on that team.

Kidd gets about 7 rpg.

Martin gets about 7 rpg.

Jefferson gets about 5.5-6 rpg.

Kittles may get 2-3 rpg.

Point is that NJ is a good rebounding team. Not great but they have balanced rebounding. Deke has 20 blocks. About 1.8 bpg in 24 mpg. He's being saved for the postseason.

[Traceman]

Byron Scott has figured out what most Hawks fans already knew, Deke is a great defender and rebounder but he bogs down the offense. He clogs up the lane because he can't do anything beyond 10 feet or so and therefore, the team has to settle for perimeter shots. I laughed my head off when I read that Byron Scott was going to run the highpost offense through Deke like he did with T Mac the year before. Asking Deke to handle the ball at the top of the key is a disaster waiting to happen. Larry Brown tried to get him more involved in the offense and Lon and Lenny did too. He's just not a very good offensive player.

When Deke was at his best, he was more beneficial to a team's defense than he was a hindrance to the team's offense but that is no longer the case. As a result, his minutes have been cut. It's that simple. Saving him? Deke has never had a serious injury and he's not hurt now. He can still play, he just plays a lot slower and at a much lower level.

NJ is an average rebounding team at best. They made the trade because they thought Deke would be able to get all the boards and they could just run, run, run but they didn't understand just how much he was going to bog down the offense. The solution thus far has been to play Deke in spots and I think that's what we'll see for the rest of the regular season and in the playoffs as well. You mean to tell me you think the Nets will play one style of ball all season and then change that style once the playoffs start? Please!

[Guest Walter]

I would love the $13 million last year, $14.5 million in cap clearing space this year, and $16 million next year concluding his contract, SAR, no longer having Hendu's (Remember the rumored deal was BC and SAR for Deke and Hendu.) contract (although he is contributing well off the bench, he still costs too much for that), AND the #3 overall draft pick we would have kept (instead of using to get SAR).

Believe, me I love the deal we got for Deke. I like it better than any other deal suggested. Still, SAR, BC's $55 million in cap space over 3 years, a draft pick of the likes of Eddy Curry or Pau Gasol, and no Hendu or Deke MEGA contracts is much better than keeping Deke who looks dead on the court now or "SCREWING" him for nothing. The truth is, we would have ended up with more cap space after BC's injury than had we simplay Screwed Deke (and kept Hendu). Ah, life is good.

Oh, and I never said BC WOULD be better than Deke, but had he not injured himself he might be now seeing how poorly Deke is playing and certainly SAR is better than Deke don't you think!?!

W

[Guest Walter]

How do YOU judge the Lakers were not a better team than SAC and how exactly was Dallas "rewarded" for their lack of defense? Was it regular season wins? Do they give a trophy for most regular season wins? Hmm. I'm not familiar with this new championship measuring stick that discounts the playoffs entirely when selecting the NBA's best team. Damnit, I showed you how DEFENSE is more critical to winning NBA C-H-A-M-P-I-O-N-S-H-I-P-S! You can't argue that so why not define "champions" as the regular season winners. Wait, do that and do not tell anybody you are doing that. That way, just as every year, LA will sit out Shaq 25 games to rest up his toe, costing them regular season games and apparently now the newly inspired NBA regular season championship. WHATEVA!

As far as Dallas, even they spent all offseason working tirelessly on 'D' so it would appear they didn't feel "rewarded".

Also, SAC'S defense was still top 8 in terms of FG% allowed. Sounds like they take it pretty seriously. They went out and spent over the luxury tax for Clark, who is almost solely a defensive player for them. They already start Christie and Webber is a very good defender. Oh, and again, what exactly does it mean to be regular season champs again?

Remember, If you aren't a Phil Jackson coached team history dictates you will not win the NBA championship without a defensive FG% ranking higher than that of an offensive FG% ranking. TAKE IT TO THE BANK!

W