I have a full proof plan for the Hawks to be title contenders but I need help

[MaceCase]

Throughout Kobe's entire career, he's either played with Shaq, or had Phil as a coach. Top three Center to ever play, and top three coach to ever coach, IMO. To say he hasn't accomplished anything without them is impossible, because one of them has always been present. Success has followed Shaq and Phil, just about everywhere they've gone....save Phoenix with Shaq the last couple.

I don't think you can devalue Kobe's worth due to the circumstances of him always playing with a dominant center and/or having a coach like Phil. He won three rings with both...has made it to the Finals three times w/o Shaq. Granted he hasn't got that "ring" without the big man - soon to change this year IMO - but getting to the Finals in 04 and last year isn't negative. Besides, that 04 Pistons team was at the height of their dominance, and the Celtics team of last year, well, the Lakers ran into a bunch of hungry superstars without a title....the Lakers ran into a buzz saw.

I'm not attacking Kobe, all I'm saying is that he and Pippen can be held to the same regard yet NJHAWK feels that Pippen was utter garbage to the point Joe Johnson is better than him and Kobe is going to come to Atlanta and be our saviour.

Kobe is a great player and Pippen was a great player, to say one is and the other is not is just foolishness but you could play devil's advocate all up and down his assertions. I could use the Kobe with Shaq/Phil argument, Say Shaq been to two championships and won one without either so he carried both. Say Jordan never won without Pippen, say Pippen was one 4th quarter collapse away from winning a ring without Phil/Jordan or a lazy Barklay and Sonic team away.

End of story Pippen was a force, Kobe is a force, Joe is nice but should never be mentioned in a sentence with them.

[NJHAWK]

I'm not attacking Kobe, all I'm saying is that he and Pippen can be held to the same regard yet NJHAWK feels that Pippen was utter garbage to the point Joe Johnson is better than him and Kobe is going to come to Atlanta and be our saviour.

Kobe is a great player and Pippen was a great player, to say one is and the other is not is just foolishness but you could play devil's advocate all up and down his assertions. I could use the Kobe with Shaq/Phil argument, Say Shaq been to two championships and won one without either so he carried both. Say Jordan never won without Pippen, say Pippen was one 4th quarter collapse away from winning a ring without Phil/Jordan or a lazy Barklay and Sonic team away.

End of story Pippen was a force, Kobe is a force, Joe is nice but should never be mentioned in a sentence with them.

Pippen was not a great player. Joe Johnson is not a great player if great means MJ and Kobe. Pippen should have been a borderline all star and not all nba. Pippen and Parrish should never have sniffed the top 50 all time list. Like I said if you put Pippen on our team from 83-94 instead of Nique with all the same parts we are in the lottery year after year. Also did you notice what Kobe did last night to an awesome Magic team with soft ayss Gasol as his wonder woman. Kobe is the best player in the nba and has been for a long time now. Pippen isnt qualified to tie Kobe's shoes.

Edited June 5, 2009 by NJHAWK

[dlpin]

Pippen was not a great player. Joe Johnson is not a great player if great means MJ and Kobe. Pippen should have been a borderline all star and not all nba. Pippen and Parrish should never have sniffed the top 50 all time list. Like I said if you put Pippen on our team from 83-94 instead of Nique with all the same parts we are in the lottery year after year. Also did you notice what Kobe did last night to an awesome Magic team with soft ayss Gasol as his wonder woman. Kobe is the best player in the nba and has been for a long time now. Pippen isnt qualified to tie Kobe's shoes.

You say this and you back it up with nothing, zilch, nada.

In fact, name one Hawks team from 83-94 where Nique had worse supporting cast than BJ Armstrong, Pete Myers, Horace Grant and Bill Cartwright? Ill take Doc every day over BJ Armstrong, and Willis every day over either Grant of Cartwright.

Pippen was the second best player on one of the best teams of all time, was a complete player and a defensive beast. Saying that is all because of MJ is nonsense, and just shows how he is underrated. His two seasons mostly without MJ he posted 22-8.7-5.6-2.9 and 21.4-8.1-5.2-2.9. But if he shouldn't have been all nba, and just a borderline all star, name the small forwards that were better than him when he played.

Parish? The guy averaged 19 points and 10 rebounds on another of the best teams of all time, and was one of the best defensive centers to ever play the game, and that was playing againg Kareem, Moses and Hakeem. But again, the burden is on you: which center who played between 46 and 97 is better than Parish and not on the top 50 list?

[NJHAWK]

You say this and you back it up with nothing, zilch, nada.

In fact, name one Hawks team from 83-94 where Nique had worse supporting cast than BJ Armstrong, Pete Myers, Horace Grant and Bill Cartwright? Ill take Doc every day over BJ Armstrong, and Willis every day over either Grant of Cartwright.

Pippen was the second best player on one of the best teams of all time, was a complete player and a defensive beast. Saying that is all because of MJ is nonsense, and just shows how he is underrated. His two seasons mostly without MJ he posted 22-8.7-5.6-2.9 and 21.4-8.1-5.2-2.9. But if he shouldn't have been all nba, and just a borderline all star, name the small forwards that were better than him when he played.

Parish? The guy averaged 19 points and 10 rebounds on another of the best teams of all time, and was one of the best defensive centers to ever play the game, and that was playing againg Kareem, Moses and Hakeem. But again, the burden is on you: which center who played between 46 and 97 is better than Parish and not on the top 50 list?

I already told you Joe has a better career scoring average than Pippen and if you take Joe's time with the Hawks his scoring average blows Pippen away. I already told you Joe has the better single scoring in a season and better single season assist than Pippen. I already told you to check Pippens stats before and after Phil and Tex.

You guys keep bringing up these two seasons like they cement him in the top 50. Then again you guys putting Pippen on the same planet as Kobe is laughable. I hate to break the news to you but Kobe is right there with MJ. Before its all said and done he could pass MJ if he hasnt already. Rememeber until Magic, Isiah and Bird got old and almost out of the league MJ didnt win diddly squat.

Edited June 6, 2009 by NJHAWK

[dlpin]

I already told you Joe has a better career scoring average than Pippen and if you take Joe's time with the Hawks his scoring average blows Pippen away. I already told you Joe has the better single scoring in a season and better single season assist than Pippen. I already told you to check Pippens stats before and after Phil and Tex.

You guys keep bringing up these two seasons like they cement him in the top 50. Then again you guys putting Pippen on the same planet as Kobe is laughable. I hate to break the news to you but Kobe is right there with MJ. Before its all said and done he could pass MJ if he hasnt already.

Except that having a better career scoring average means nothing as to who is better. Or do you think that Allen Iverson is better than Shaq, Bird, Magic and Kareem?Also, look at the situations: One is the main, and for a long time only, reliable scoring option on a team that has been between awful and average, the other was the number #2 guy in a team with the best player of all time. And of course we keep talking about those 2 seasons, you keep talking about how he did nothing and it was all Jordan...

And no one compared Pippen to Kobe. You compared Pippen to Joe Johnson, and Joe Johnson is not half the defender Pippen ever was.

But, again, the burden is on you: if Pippen didn't deserve to be on the all nba team 3 times, who were the better SF when he was active? Name the SF that were better than him from 94-96 when he made the all nba first team.

Same thing for the top 50: Do you think Pippen and Parish were the worst of the 50? I don't. But even if they were, who would you put in their place?

There are only two players who deserve to be on that list but aren't (by the way, just to refresh your memory, that list was made in 96-97): Bob McAdoo (only player to win the mvp and not be in it) and Nique. But even then I would take out about 5 or 6 other players before I took out Parish or Pippen (for example, I would take out Worthy and Wilkens before I took out Parish and Pippen).

In any case, there is no point in arguing about a 10 year old list.

But there is no way that Kobe and Joe Johnson would come even close to MJ and Pippen, just as there is no way Kobe would come to Atlanta. Oh, and Kobe right there with MJ is ridiculous. MJ is the best player of all time, a guard who even though he was double and triple teamed would still shoot over 50% and easily win 6 championships, even when guarded by the defensive player of the year. Kobe is the guy who was destroyed by Paul Pierce (who has never even made it to an all defense team ever) in last year's finals, shooting 40% and averaging close to 4 turnovers a game.

As long as Atlanta is mired in an ownership battle, no major star is going to choose Atlanta as a place to develop their career.

Edited June 6, 2009 by dlpin

[DJlaysitup]

Maybe he'll settle for the #8 TV market if we ask nicely and Jack Nicholson relocates? :phone:

Fixed. :friends1:

Well put Z

[DJlaysitup]

LOL

Do all of that, and trade JJ + a re-signed Marvin . . for Kobe. Draft Dejuan Blair, if he falls that far. Re-sign Flip for around 4 - 5 mill. Convince Chill to bring his azz back here.

Hawks lineup:

G - Flip

G - Kobe

F - Chill

F - Smith

C - Horford

Bench

G - Acie

F - Blair

F - Evans

C - Morris ( cause he'll have to play at times, just for size )

Lakers lineup:

G - Fisher

G - JJ

F - Marvin

F - Gasol

C - Bynum

Bench

F - Ariza

G - Brown

F - Walton

G - Farmar

Damn . . I like the Laker team better . . almost.

Gasol will be the key to the series...Maybe not one game at a time...but overall....JMHO.

[NJHAWK]

Except that having a better career scoring average means nothing as to who is better.

EXACTLY RANDOLPH MORRIS IS BETTER THAN JOE BECAUSE THEIR PPG MEAN NOTHING

And no one compared Pippen to Kobe. You compared Pippen to Joe Johnson, and Joe Johnson is not half the defender Pippen ever was.

YOU NEED TO READ MACCASE POST ABOUT 5 POSTS UP

But there is no way that Kobe and Joe Johnson would come even close to MJ and Pippen.

KOBE AND MJ and PIPPEN AND JOE ARE MORE THAN JUST CLOSE TO ANYONE WHO CAN READ #'S

[NJHAWK]

Same thing for the top 50: Do you think Pippen and Parish were the worst of the 50? I don't. But even if they were, who would you put in their place?

NIQUE IS TO PIPPEN LIKE JORDON IS TO JOHN STARKS

I would take out Worthy and Wilkens before I took out Parish and Pippen).

INSANE

In any case, there is no point in arguing about a 10 year old list.

AGREED BUT IT JUST PROVES HOW OVER RATED PIPPEN WAS

[NJHAWK]

Except that having a better career scoring average means nothing as to who is better. Or do you think that Allen Iverson is better than Shaq, Bird, Magic and Kareem?Also, look at the situations: One is the main, and for a long time only, reliable scoring option on a team that has been between awful and average, the other was the number #2 guy in a team with the best player of all time. And of course we keep talking about those 2 seasons, you keep talking about how he did nothing and it was all Jordan...

HE TOOK THEM AS FAR AS JOE HAS TAKEN US.

MJ is the best player of all time, a guard who even though he was double and triple teamed would still shoot over 50% and easily win 6 championships, even when guarded by the defensive player of the year.

HE WASNT WHEN MAGIC, BIRD AND ISIAH WERE IN THEIR PRIME. HE WON 6 TITLES WHICH IS INCREDIBLE BUT THE LEAGUE WAS QUITE DRIED UP. IN THE EAST THE TOUGHEST COMP WAS THE EWING/CBA STARKS KNICKS AND THE WEST WASNT NEARLY WHAT IT WAS WHEN KOBE MOWED THROUGH IT. I THINK YOU ARE FORGETTING AN AWFUL LOT OF PLAYERS WHEN YOU SAY JORDON IS THE BEST OF ALL TIME. IF HE WAS HE WOULD HAVE BEAT THE GUYS I MENTIONED BEFORE THEY NEEDED WHEEL CHAIRS AND I DIDNT EVEN MENTION WILT AND BILL R.

[dlpin]

- basketball is a 5 on 5 game. MJ had to beat not only Bird, Magic and Isiah, but also McHale, Parish, Kareem, Worthy, Dumars, Rodman and Laimbeer. Yet MJ won it all with a bunch of scrubs and a third year Pippen.

- The idea that MJ and Pippen are close to Kobe and Joe Johnson because their ppg numbers are somewhat close is non-sense. There is more to basketball than ppg, and Kobe and JJ are no where even close to the efficiency (fg%, turnovers), hustle (rebounds), and defense (steals, defensive rating) that MJ and Pippen had. Comparing players is more than just comparing ppg. In his prime, Pippen had a PER of between 20 and 23.2. Jordan had a PER of between 28 and 31.7. Kobe's best was 28 in ONE season, Joe Johnson's best was 19.5 ONE season. So the best of both is about the same as the worst of MJ's and Pippen's prime. You must be 25 or under. No one who saw Jordan play (and is not a Laker homer) thinks Kobe comes close to him.

- You can't compare Pippen's 94 season to this Hawks season. Hawks had a better supporting cast, won 8 fewer games, and was swept by a team that was owned in the ECF. Bulls won 8 more games, only lost to the knicks in 7 because of one of the worst refereeing mistakes of all time, a knicks team that went all the way to the finals.

Edited June 6, 2009 by dlpin

[MaceCase]

BY the way NJ I never compared Kobe to Pippen, I said by your retarded logic if you considered Pippen to be an undeserving sidekick then someone just as dumb could say that Kobe is an undeserving sidekick. But seeing as you are saying Kobe and Jordan are in the same sentence as the only definition of "great" players ever well then I can see why that post went over your head.

[DJlaysitup]

A bit OT but a reply:

Earvin "Magic" Johnson was the best basketball player I've ever seen in my life. It took me a while to swallow that pill because I was always a Bird fan (MVC Alumni).

[Bahamut]

Well put Z

:beer11:

[NJHAWK]

I'm not attacking Kobe, all I'm saying is that he and Pippen can be held to the same regard yet NJHAWK feels that Pippen was utter garbage to the point Joe Johnson is better than him and Kobe is going to come to Atlanta and be our saviour.

Kobe is a great player and Pippen was a great player, to say one is and the other is not is just foolishness but you could play devil's advocate all up and down his assertions.End of story Pippen was a force, Kobe is a force, Joe is nice but should never be mentioned in a sentence with them.

This looks to me like you are saying that Kobe and Pippen are on the same level. Also I never said Kobe would come be our savior only that if we did get him to come here we are a sure title contender. As far as Joe and Pippen just look at all the stats and at what happened when Pippen was away from Jordon as far as how far he lead his team. Those two are in the same ballpark as players with Joe being a better scorer, shooter and just as good an assist man while Pippen was a better rebounder and better in the passing lanes stealing the ball.. Again when you look at the numbers, ALL THE NUMBERS saying Joe cant be in the same sentence with Pippen is either Joe hate or 1990's nostalgia. Putting Pippen in the top 50 all time instead of Nique again proves just how overated Pippen was.

[NJHAWK]

A bit OT but a reply:

Earvin "Magic" Johnson was the best basketball player I've ever seen in my life. It took me a while to swallow that pill because I was always a Bird fan (MVC Alumni).

This is exactly what I mean about Jordon and this best ever stigma he has. If he was the best ever why didnt he beat Bird, Magic and Isiah in their prime? How can people just right off what Wilt and Russell did? Yes he dominated an extremely weak league and he is easily one of the best ever but to say clear cut that he is without allowing people like you to chose who they felt was the best ever without being attacked is BULLSHYYYT.

[dlpin]

This is exactly what I mean about Jordon and this best ever stigma he has. If he was the best ever why didnt he beat Bird, Magic and Isiah in their prime? How can people just right off what Wilt and Russell did? Yes he dominated an extremely weak league and he is easily one of the best ever but to say clear cut that he is without allowing people like you to chose who they felt was the best ever without being attacked is BULLSHYYYT.

He did beat Isiah and Magic in their primes. In Jordan's first title run he beat Isiah and Dumars in their prime (Isiah was 29), and then Magic, who was the MVP for the season (and they only lost 2 games the entire postseason!). The only reason he didnt actually beat bird in bird's prime is because Bird had his prime from 83-87, and simply go injured all the time after that, and so never went deep in the playoffs when Jordan was in his prime.

And this whole thing about an extremely weak league is non-sense. The 90's had much better teams than the 00's, because further expansion has diluted talent even more. Just look at the 2000 pacers finally reaching the finals, despite Miller and Smits being old.

Im a celtic fan I could be a homer and go all out about Russel's titles or Bird's best seasons, but the fact is that Russel and Bird had a lot of help. A lot more than Jordan did (Pippen and role players). Ask any NBA historian and they will tell you the best 3 teams of all time are the 72 lakers, the 86 celtics, and the 96 bulls. The 72 lakers had 4 hall of famers. The 86 celtics had 4 hall of famers and 3 more guys with all star appearances. The 96 Bulls had Jordan, Pippen and role players. The only other player to even appear in an all star game from that team is Rodman. That tells you how good Jordan was (and Pippen as well).

Edited June 7, 2009 by dlpin

[NJHAWK]

He did beat Isiah and Magic in their primes. In Jordan's first title run he beat Isiah and Dumars in their prime (Isiah was 29), and then Magic, who was the MVP for the season (and they only lost 2 games the entire postseason!). The only reason he didnt actually beat bird in bird's prime is because Bird had his prime from 83-87, and simply go injured all the time after that, and so never went deep in the playoffs when Jordan was in his prime.

And this whole thing about an extremely weak league is non-sense. The 90's had much better teams than the 00's, because further expansion has diluted talent even more. Just look at the 2000 pacers finally reaching the finals, despite Miller and Smits being old.

Im a celtic fan I could be a homer and go all out about Russel's titles or Bird's best seasons, but the fact is that Russel and Bird had a lot of help. A lot more than Jordan did (Pippen and role players). Ask any NBA historian and they will tell you the best 3 teams of all time are the 72 lakers, the 86 celtics, and the 96 bulls. The 72 lakers had 4 hall of famers. The 86 celtics had 4 hall of famers and 3 more guys with all star appearances. The 96 Bulls had Jordan, Pippen and role players. The only other player to even appear in an all star game from that team is Rodman. That tells you how good Jordan was (and Pippen as well).

Magic and that Lakers team were old and hurt in that finals. Didnt the 96 Bulls beat Seattle with the great Shawn kemp to win the title which was the toughest team they played in that playoffs. That is laughable. Im not saying its their fault because you play who is there but saying they were one of the 3 best teams ever considering the comp was a complete joke is at the very least debatable.

[dlpin]

Magic and that Lakers team were old and hurt in that finals. Didnt the 96 Bulls beat Seattle with the great Shawn kemp to win the title which was the toughest team they played in that playoffs. That is laughable. Im not saying its their fault because you play who is there but saying they were one of the 3 best teams ever considering the comp was a complete joke is at the very least debatable.

They also swept Shaq and Penny in the ECF and beat Ewing and the Knicks in 5. And that Seattle team won 64 games and also had Payton in his prime.

And 31 is old? That was Magic's age, in a year he won the MVP. And he was the only starter over 30. Worthy was 29 and had his best season of his career that year. No lakers starter missed more than 8 games the entire season.

Edited June 7, 2009 by dlpin

[MaceCase]

This looks to me like you are saying that Kobe and Pippen are on the same level. Also I never said Kobe would come be our savior only that if we did get him to come here we are a sure title contender. As far as Joe and Pippen just look at all the stats and at what happened when Pippen was away from Jordon as far as how far he lead his team. Those two are in the same ballpark as players with Joe being a better scorer, shooter and just as good an assist man while Pippen was a better rebounder and better in the passing lanes stealing the ball.. Again when you look at the numbers, ALL THE NUMBERS saying Joe cant be in the same sentence with Pippen is either Joe hate or 1990's nostalgia. Putting Pippen in the top 50 all time instead of Nique again proves just how overated Pippen was.

Tell me how you dont't consider someone our saviour yet his arrival signals championship contention...

Let's move on to your other statements

And please just so I can stop shaking my head you do realize that Pippen's decline in numbers didn't just occur with Jordans absence...You do realize that NBA players (If not every human being) decline with age especially after 10 season in the NBA and being in their thirties. I think that's natural or something, I don't know I could be wrong.

Joe Johnson should be in the same sentence as Pippen why? Because he puts up better scoring and similar assists numbers while trailing in all the other categories? How does doin 2 out of the 5 things someone else does put you in the same sentence as them? Hey I got dimples and pecs like Brad Pitt, I must be just as good looking if not better looking than him.

And oh yea lemme just address this for the last time, I don't know what "level" it is you are holding Kobe to that is just so pristine that the mere mention of Pippen lays sully upon its hallowed halls but they are in the same regard in that they are two future hall of famers. End of story, they are different players with different styles and skills but have one thing in common that they were one of the best there was/is at it. I don't know what you're arguing here, Pippen sucks now Jordan sucks cuz he beat a "watered down" east and Nique didn't make an arbitrary list, Joe and Kobe would be the most dynamic duo in NBA history......I just don't know which direction you are going but when you get it together let me know.