Cliff Lee signs with Philly

[CBAreject]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5917145

I'm going to be sick. 2011 Phillies project to have the best starting rotation in history....and I'm not overstating. I said last year's top 3 was better than any the Braves ever trotted out in that 15 year run (apologies to 1993 and 1998 staffs...and many others were better 4-deep and 5-deep, but not a better top 3). Now the Phillies add the best LH starting pitcher in the game to form a 4-some that, barring injury or individual collapse, will be a better 4-man rotation than I've ever seen. It will contend with the 54 Indians' rotation, on which a 35 year old Bob Feller might've been the 5th best pitcher. Here it is if you want to see it:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CLE/1954-pitching.shtml

Here are the 2 best 4 deep Braves staffs I can recall. The 1998 staff rivals the 1954 Indians staff as a 5 deep. Amazing that neither of these teams even made it to the world series, but then, the 1954 Indians (one of the best regular season teams in history) got swept in the world series.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ATL/1993-pitching.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/ATL/1998-pitching.shtml

[dms269]

Why can't we have owners who will spend money openly?

The front office traded for Uggla and now seem content with their 1 move.

[Guest]

Why is it that people throw out hyperbole's with current moves? It is likely that the Phillies have, on paper, one of the greatest rotations. I am hesitant to say the greatest ever. For one, there are issues with comparing different eras. What should be the criteria?

Is this based on the Phillies having 4 of the top 10 current pitchers, making it a relative era measure? If thats the case, I find it hard to believe that the Phillies' pitchers are all in the top 10. I find it equally hard to imagine that back when there were less teams another team didn't also have 4 of the top X pitchers.

Is this an awards based measure (All-Star, Cy Young, etc.)? Well we should see more All-Star births now especially since the All-Star rosters have been expanded. And if its Cy based, well then pick any rotation that Clemens teamed up with someone and there you have the most Cys.

Is this some sort of an "each are equally awesome" type of argument? Well off the top of my head, the 1981 Astros had a darn good rotation: Nolan, Joe Neikro, Sutton, Bob Knepper, and if you throw Vern Ruhle on there thats solid. I imagine with more thought one could find other scenarios.

Its not like any of these pitchers are locks to be Hall of Famers. Halladay is the closest with 2 Cy Youngs and 13 seasons at a 3.32 era. I am amazed at how quickly Oswalt has gone from underrated in Houston to overrated in Philly, I guess thats the media for you. He is about as consistent as you can get, but he would be the first to tell you he isn't a Hall of Famer. Hamels has been around a measly 5 seasons, he could easily flake. Cliff Lee might be the most overrated pitcher in the league right now, 9 seasons with a 3.85 era and people act as if he is a dominant pitcher. I guess thats what happens when people have short-term memory and only watch the post-season. Before 2008, Lee was a wasted talent and now these past 3 seasons trump whatever he's done before? A 3-year blip is not uncommon.

Let's just leave it at the greatest rotation since the early 90s Braves.

[WakaFlocka]

Yeah, I threw up in my mouth a little when I saw Lee signed with the Phillies.

Lee, Halladay, Oswalt, and Hamels is just unfair...

[AHF]

They look fantastic on paper but let's play it out and see how they do. If some of them get fat and content with the renewed adulation and millions they are receiving, you could see some fall-off from some of these guys for sure. Lee was definitely subpar over the second half of last season so I would have been very worried if I were the Yankees and had signed him for 7 years. We'll see how they develop. Since I will likely be keeping Lee in my keeper baseball league, I am assuming he will fall off the edge of the earth next season.

[CBAreject]

Why can't we have owners who will spend money openly?

The front office traded for Uggla and now seem content with their 1 move.

The problem with our front office is not that they haven't spent money, it's what they spent it on. Overall, Frank Wren has done an adequate job, but I will look back to that 2008 offseason as the time when he tried to do too much too fast. The acquisition of Vazquez' very reasonable contract was a good move, but signing Derek Lowe and KK for a collective 22 million per year hand-cuffed us. Over the next 2 seasons, Roy Halladay came available, and we lacked the financial flexibility to get him. Cliff Lee became available 4 different times, and we couldn't get him. Roy Oswalt became available and could be had for very little (and half his contract paid!) and we couldn't get him. Those are dominant pitchers who can shut down a game for 8 or 9 innings. We were not players for any of them because we blew our wad on a 35 year old Derek Lowe. The Lowe signing in itself was not horrible. If we had deeper pockets, it would make sense, but we paid him to be our ace, and he couldn't ever be expected to do that. And in spending those dollars on him, we lost a chance at 3 different true aces, and worst of all, they all wound up with our in-division rival.

[AHF]

They are talking about guaranteed money with the possibility that he turns into the next Barry Zito or Mike Hampton and has little value at the end of contract. The media lilkes to report on simplistic bottom-line dollars like all the hand-wringing over McNabb's extension that turned out to be a very low risk proposition for Washington.

Edited December 15, 2010 by AHF

[frosgrim]

The problem with our front office is not that they haven't spent money, it's what they spent it on. Overall, Frank Wren has done an adequate job, but I will look back to that 2008 offseason as the time when he tried to do too much too fast. The acquisition of Vazquez' very reasonable contract was a good move, but signing Derek Lowe and KK for a collective 22 million per year hand-cuffed us. Over the next 2 seasons, Roy Halladay came available, and we lacked the financial flexibility to get him. Cliff Lee became available 4 different times, and we couldn't get him. Roy Oswalt became available and could be had for very little (and half his contract paid!) and we couldn't get him. Those are dominant pitchers who can shut down a game for 8 or 9 innings. We were not players for any of them because we blew our wad on a 35 year old Derek Lowe. The Lowe signing in itself was not horrible. If we had deeper pockets, it would make sense, but we paid him to be our ace, and he couldn't ever be expected to do that. And in spending those dollars on him, we lost a chance at 3 different true aces, and worst of all, they all wound up with our in-division rival.

Have to agree with this. FW did over spend on Lowe and KK. It was like once they lost out on Burnett he over-reacted and got two guys instead of one. KK has turned into a complete disaster and with a limited payroll you just can't have that sort of mistake.

That said, it looks like FW learned from his mistake and is letting the overpriced veterans run out their contracts. But it does look like FW isn't done with the team. The hole in CF is just too big not to fill with something. The Yankees appear to have a desperate need for a pitcher (Lowe or maybe JJ) and have an outfielder that we could really use in Gardner.

[NJHAWK]

As a Phillies fan Im happy even though I expected the Phils to make a serious run at Lee once Werth signed with Wash. Lee was my favorite pitcher when he was on the Phillies and I was ticked they traded him for B prospects. I would rather have him than Halladay especially in the playoffs. Im glad the Phils are spending the money they get for selling out every game but in general I hate baseball and the way its set up. Baseball needs are hard cap. As far as this being the best rotation ever well it hasnt done anything yet so how could it be? I guess I now know what it was like being a Braves fan for all those years where if you dont win the series its a failure.