Building around Horford - my second rant of the week

[thecampster]

I'm having my second rant of the week and it's only Thursday. I'm seeing multiple Josh hate threads again about the news he might want a trade and people suggesting we build around Horford, calling Horford our best defender, etc.

Fellas, I love Al. I want Al on this team. Of our big 3, I believe Joe is the mistake.

But guys, Al is not Batman. Al will never be Batman. Al is a Robin. Al can't create his own shot...that is strike one. Al is undersized at the 5, that is strike 2 meaning he has to be a 4. As a 4, he isn't the low post player required to build around. He has a good jumper, can score when led but be honest. Joe, Josh draw way more doubles than Al.

Al is the not the kind of guy you build around, Al is the kind of guy championship teams trade for at the deadline from teams that can't afford him the following year. Al is not Dirk, not Kobe, Lebron, DWade, DWill, Paul. Al is very good but he is not great.

Just stop it with all of these "Horford is the man" posts. Al will never be Karl Malone, or Elton Brand in his prime for that matter. But he isn't Al Henderson either. He's better, just not great! If Al and Joe were great, a team with Josh, Zaza, Teague wouldn't be challenging the NBA elite every night. They'd be much more missed.

[Admin]

I'm having my second rant of the week and it's only Thursday. I'm seeing multiple Josh hate threads again about the news he might want a trade and people suggesting we build around Horford, calling Horford our best defender, etc.

Fellas, I love Al. I want Al on this team. Of our big 3, I believe Joe is the mistake.

But guys, Al is not Batman. Al will never be Batman. Al is a Robin. Al can't create his own shot...that is strike one. Al is undersized at the 5, that is strike 2 meaning he has to be a 4. As a 4, he isn't the low post player required to build around. He has a good jumper, can score when led but be honest. Joe, Josh draw way more doubles than Al.

Al is the not the kind of guy you build around, Al is the kind of guy championship teams trade for at the deadline from teams that can't afford him the following year. Al is not Dirk, not Kobe, Lebron, DWade, DWill, Paul. Al is very good but he is not great.

Just stop it with all of these "Horford is the man" posts. Al will never be Karl Malone, or Elton Brand in his prime for that matter. But he isn't Al Henderson either. He's better, just not great! If Al and Joe were great, a team with Josh, Zaza, Teague wouldn't be challenging the NBA elite every night. They'd be much more missed.

Josh is the not the kind of guy you build around, Josh is the kind of guy championship teams trade for at the deadline from teams that can't afford him the following year. Josh is not Dirk, not Kobe, Lebron, DWade, DWill, Paul. Josh is very good but he is not great.

I haven't hear Al or Joe or anyone else reportedly ask to be traded. You're acting like people are choosing Al over Josh and that's not true at all.

And if Josh really doesn't want to be here then how should we treat him?

[thecampster]

Josh is the not the kind of guy you build around, Josh is the kind of guy championship teams trade for at the deadline from teams that can't afford him the following year. Josh is not Dirk, not Kobe, Lebron, DWade, DWill, Paul. Josh is very good but he is not great.

I haven't hear Al or Joe or anyone else reportedly ask to be traded. You're acting like people are choosing Al over Josh and that's not true at all.

And if Josh really doesn't want to be here then how should we treat him?

Josh is hurt because he was snubbed. I think he's acting like a baby about it but we are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes. We spent our superstar money on the 3rd best player on our team. Perfect world would see Joe + traded for Dwight and you line up Josh at the 3, Al at the 4, Dwight at the 5 and Josh would be happy. You build around someone worthy and add pieces like Josh, Al (not sure which is Robin and which is Bat Girl). But Joe isn't good enough for that to happen.

Edited March 9, 2012 by thecampster

[Admin]

Josh is hurt because he was snubbed. I think he's acting like a baby about it but we are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes. We spent our superstar money on the 3rd best player on our team. Perfect world would see Joe + traded for Dwight and you line up Josh at the 3, Al at the 4, Dwight at the 5 and Josh would be happy. You build around someone worthy and add pieces like Josh, Al (not sure which is Robin and which is Bat Girl). But Joe isn't good enough for that to happen.

I'm still not convinced that Josh is really asking to be traded but if he doesn't come out and deny it then I guess I'm going to have to believe it.

But you want to talk about hate? You're calling Joe our 3rd best player? Joe has been our best player since the day he arrived in Atlanta and that hasn't changed until maybe this year, although I'm still not ready to assume this is the Josh we'll see from now on nor is this the Joe we'll see from now on. No doubt that Joe is overpaid and he's probably starting to hit the downside of his career but I'm not ready to throw the dirt on him just yet and I think he'll remind us all how good he is once he's back, or at least I hope he does!

I'd be delighted to see Joe moved for Dwight but I don't see it happening. I'd be opening to trade Joe for anyone of near equivalent talent who is making less money and for less years, but I don't see that happening anytime soon either.

[thecampster]

I'm still not convinced that Josh is really asking to be traded but if he doesn't come out and deny it then I guess I'm going to have to believe it.

But you want to talk about hate? You're calling Joe our 3rd best player? Joe has been our best player since the day he arrived in Atlanta and that hasn't changed until maybe this year, although I'm still not ready to assume this is the Josh we'll see from now on nor is this the Joe we'll see from now on. No doubt that Joe is overpaid and he's probably starting to hit the downside of his career but I'm not ready to throw the dirt on him just yet and I think he'll remind us all how good he is once he's back, or at least I hope he does!

I'd be delighted to see Joe moved for Dwight but I don't see it happening. I'd be opening to trade Joe for anyone of near equivalent talent who is making less money and for less years, but I don't see that happening anytime soon either.

It isn't hate at all and Joe is not now nor recently has he been our best player. My definition of best is "most impactful in a positive way". Most everyone else's definition of best is "highest scoring". By that definition, Ben Gordon should have got a max contract with the Bulls, never been traded. Joe scores points. Based on the sheer volume of touches he gets assists (about 2 a game from someone bailing out one of his possessions). Based on the sheer number of minutes he gets, he gets rebounds. But none of those numbers are awe inspiring and that is why his PER suffers. He is a volume minutes player. But his scoring efficiency is suspect and scoring is his best attribute. Ask yourself this honestly in light of the last 8 games. Does Joe make everyone better? I would state he doesn't. Now this doesn't mean he isn't a good ball player and a helluva guy. What it means is if scoring is the definition of best, Joe is. If efficiency, getting your team involved, running the game plan, being the best off the ball as well as iso then Joe is not. Al and Josh do a much better job of getting the team involved, doing dirty work, etc.

With Joe's length, he should not be non-existent in steals/blocks. With Joe's size at the two, his should not be getting less than 5 rebounds per 48 minutes. Here are a couple of lists, all are taking from the Guard category on Yahoo.

PG, G, SG, G-F's that get more rebounds than Joe.

Andre Iguodala 6.4

Kobe Bryant 5.8

Trevor Ariza 5.7

Evan Turner 5.7

Paul George 5.4

Kyle Lowry 5.3

Tyreke Evans 5.1

Rajon Rondo 5.1

John Wall 5

Eric Gordon 5

Kawhi Leonard 4.9

Russell Westbrook 4.8

Landry Fields 4.5

Dorell Wright 4.5

Dwyane Wade 4.4

Jared Dudley 4.4

Nicolas Batum 4.4

Gerald Henderson 4.3

Alonzo Gee 4.2

Ricky Rubio 4.2

James Harden 4.2

Jason Kidd 4.2

MarShon Brooks 3.9

Josh Howard 3.9

Tony Allen 3.9

Jarrett Jack 3.8

Ty Lawson 3.8

Danny Green 3.7

Carlos Delfino 3.7

Brandon Rush 3.6

Marcus Thornton 3.6

Chris Paul 3.6

Kemba Walker 3.6

Andre Miller 3.5

Deron Williams 3.5

Kyrie Irving 3.5

Stephen Curry 3.5

PG, G, SG, G-F that get more assists than Joe - there are 43 on this list

Steve Nash 10.9

Rajon Rondo 10.1

Jose Calderon 8.7

Chris Paul 8.4

Ricky Rubio 8.2

Deron Williams 8.2

Tony Parker 7.9

Derrick Rose 7.8

John Wall 7.8

Kyle Lowry 7.2

Mike Conley 7.1

Ty Lawson 6.8

Andre Miller 6.7

D.J. Augustin 6.4

Raymond Felton 6.3

Jarrett Jack 6

Jeremy Lin 6

Monta Ellis 5.8

Russell Westbrook 5.6

Jason Kidd 5.6

Stephen Curry 5.6

Brandon Jennings 5.5

Jameer Nelson 5.5

Andre Iguodala 5.4

Kyrie Irving 5.2

Darren Collison 5.1

Baron Davis 5.1

Ramon Sessions 5.1

Tyreke Evans 5

Dwyane Wade 4.9

Kobe Bryant 4.9

Greivis Vasquez 4.7

Jrue Holiday 4.5

Devin Harris 4.5

Earl Watson 4.5

Jeff Teague 4.3

Chauncey Billups 4

Kemba Walker 4

C.J. Watson 3.9

Jamal Crawford 3.9

Louis Williams 3.8

Rodney Stuckey 3.8

Luke Ridnour 3.7

Blocks - 66 get more than Joe, 40 of which play less than 30 minutes a game.

Steals - 109 get more than Joe, 65 of which play less than 30 minutes a game.

Now if we're gonna play 2 on 2....hell yes I want Joe on my team. But a team game of 5 on 5, sorry but I don't. Not at his salary. He's been this way for a few years now. He's worth about 10 million a year max.

Take a real hard look at those categories and some of the names better than Joe. Now Let's look at Al, Josh in a few.

In Rebounds, assists, blocks, steals, Al is top 20 among F/C in all categories.

Josh is top 10 in all 4 categories among all Forwards and beats or nearly beats Joe in every category.

They are both better defenders, better team players and better all around players.

Edited March 9, 2012 by thecampster

[Admin]

We'll just have to agree to disagree, but I will say that I don't consider Joe our best player because of points. I see him as our best player because he can effectively guard 3 positions, he can handle the ball as a PG, he's our best closer, best ISO player and from all accounts his teammates love him. Not to mention that Joe has been the focus of the opposing defense for 7 years now here in Atlanta and that has definitely taken a toll on his body.

No doubt that Josh is our most talented player and has been, but until recently you've never known what you were going to get from him on a game by game basis. He's playing fantastic now and definitely up to his potential but until he goes an entire season where he gives full effort every game throughout the season I will never consider him to be our best player.

[thecampster]

So if it's based on effort, Zaza is our best??? Game impact!

Since 2008, Josh has missed 19 total games. The Hawks are 8-11 in those games. .421

Since 2008, Al has missed 49 total games. The Hawks are 26-23 in those games. .531

Since 2008, Joe has missed 25 total games. The Hawks are 15-10 in those games .600

Draw your own conclusions of course but based on this 4 year sample without Josh we are a below .500 team and would average 34.5 wins in an 82 game season. Without Al 43.5 games a year. Without Joe we would win 49.2 games a year.

What have we averaged the last 4 years? 48-34. Based on the Joe Sample we are 1.2 wins a year better if Joe isn't in the lineup. We are 4.5 games worse without Al. We are 13.5 games worse without Josh and don't make the playoffs.

More information. Joe's best season here was 25 ppg, no Al...Josh's first year to shine it was 06-07....we won 30 games. It wasn't until we got Horford and a point guard that we made the playoffs. Joe's impact here has alwasy been minimal. Joe's first 3 years here we won 26,30 and 37 games. It was with the maturation of Smith / Horford we became a playoff team. Without Joe in the lineup, we still would be a top 4 seed based on our win percentage. Without Al bottom 4, without Josh...we wouldn't even make the playoffs.