If Childress is being moved, Crittenton is...

[exodus]

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I've told you a billion times he still has a height advantage over 95% of PGs in the league.

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But only a 1" advantage over Law.

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Full court speed also has NOTHING to do with quickness or a player's first step

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First of all it was a 3/4 court sprint. Secondly quickness is a major issue in a 3 second race.

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a players moves, dribble moves, hesitation moves, crossovers, etc

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Those are skills and they have nothing to do with the combine.

Are you trying to say Crit's ball handling skills are greater than Conley/Law?

[AtLaS]

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But only a 1" advantage over Law.

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Which has nothing to do with the point I made.

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First of all it was a 3/4 court sprint. Secondly quickness is a major issue in a 3 second race.

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Actually it isn't. Quickness is basically one step, in a 3 second race someone will take roughly 10. In a 3/4 court sprint, top end speed plays the biggest part, and top end speed isn't even that important compared to other things such as skill.

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Those are skills and they have nothing to do with the combine.

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Thanks for proving my point. You are entirely basing your opinion on ONE combine number that has nothing to do with a players basketball skills.

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Are you trying to say Crit's ball handling skills are greater than Conley/Law?

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I guarantee they are at LEAST as good as Law, probably not as good as Conley's though.

[exodus]

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Which has nothing to do with the point I made.

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And your point has no relevance to anything.

The relevant point is how Crit compares to Law and Conley since the Hawks will only draft one of them.

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Actually it isn't. Quickness is basically one step, in a 3 second race someone will take roughly 10.

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Wrong. You won't even reach top speed until probably the foul line. The quicker player will reach top speed faster.

Guys will the quickest first step are generally the fastest players.

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You are entirely basing your opinion on ONE combine number that has nothing to do with a players basketball skills.

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Wrong. Crit was seen as having the least developed skills before the combine. However he was seen as having upside because of his size and perceived athleticism. After the combine his upside won't seem so attractive.

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I guarantee they are at LEAST as good as Law, probably not as good as Conley's though.

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So in other words his ball handling skills aren't good enough to make up for being slower than both. Thanks for that.

[AtLaS]

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The relevant point is how Crit compares to Law and Conley since the Hawks will only draft one of them.

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I guess if Horford was 6'11 in shoes, you wouldn't want to draft him either..

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After the combine his upside won't seem so attractive.

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WTF. You do know strength has a lot to do with athleticism right? As a freshman, he had 11 reps compared to Laws 8 as a SENIOR. Conley had more, but I would take Conley over Critt without question. Not only that, I guess a >6'4" PG with great passing instincts, a good looking shot, good handles, and the ability to really penetrate and score doesn't have upside. Especially one that had a very impressive rookie season. What a rediculous argument.

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So in other words his ball handling skills aren't good enough to make up for being slower than both. Thanks for that.

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Thanks again for basing your entire opinion on a 3/4 court speed combine number.

[exodus]

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I guess if Horford was 6'11 in shoes, you wouldn't want to draft him either..

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Correct. His standing reach is only .5" higher than Josh Smith.

BTW Law has the same standing reach as Crit.

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You do know strength has a lot to do with athleticism right? As a freshman, he had 11 reps compared to Laws 8 as a SENIOR.

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What is more important for a pg, speed or strength? Which is the easiest to improve?

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Thanks again for basing your entire opinion on a 3/4 court speed combine number.

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No. He was seen as the 3rd rated pg prospect going into the combine. the combine simply widens the gap between him and the other two (this is a recording).

[txsting]

atlas, meet brick wall. brick wall, atlas.

[AtLaS]

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Correct. His standing reach is only .5" higher than Josh Smith.

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Wow.

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BTW Law has the same standing reach as Crit.

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Standing reach is next to irrelevant for a PG.

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What is more important for a pg, speed or strength? Which is the easiest to improve?

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Both, speed is very important but when you are 6'4+ it's not nearly as important. And strength isn't very easy to improve once you've worked out for a long time. Since Law is a senior, it's likely he's been working out for at least 4 years, probably longer, meaning it will be very tough to improve. Since Crittenton is only a freshman, it's likely he has a lot of strength to improve.

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No. He was seen as the 3rd rated pg prospect going into the combine. the combine simply widens the gap between him and the other two (this is a recording).

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Wrong. There were several websites that had Crittenton going before Law, before the combine. Crittenton's freshman season was very impressive whether you admit it or not. But I guess if top end speed is the end all argument..

[exodus]

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Standing reach is next to irrelevant for a PG.

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Then i guess height is too.

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What is more important for a pg, speed or strength? Which is the easiest to improve?

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I knew you would dodge these questions.

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There were several websites that had Crittenton going before Law, before the combine.

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So list them.

[AtLaS]

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Then i guess height is too.

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You're right. Magic being 6'9 had nothing to do with his success.

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I knew you would dodge these questions.

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I guess you didn't read my response. Strength is VERY important for a PG. Strength is important for finishing inside, playing defense, and not getting the ball taken when it's slapped while in your hands (mainly when driving).

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So list them.

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nbadraft.net off the top of my head.

*waits for ex to deem nbadraft.net incredible*

EDIT: I'm done with this because it's making me look like I don't like Law, when in fact I do. I'm just saying you're putting too much into the combine numbers to bash Crittenton.

[exodus]

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You're right. Magic being 6'9 had nothing to do with his success.

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So i guess 1" makes a huge difference. OK

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I guess you didn't read my response.

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I did and you still haven't answered it.

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nbadraft.net off the top of my head.

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I could have sworn "them" was plural.

[AtLaS]

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So i guess 1" makes a huge difference. OK

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Dude you are the one that turned this into a Law/Crittenton debate. I like Law, my ONLY point is that you are basing your ENTIRE opinion on the top end speed of Crittenton. I guarantee Crittenton is at least as fast as Nash, Kidd, Cassell, Knight, Hinrich, etc.. but we can't look those up. Not only that, Critt has a height advantage on all of them.

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I did and you still haven't answered it.

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And you still haven't answered mine.

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I could have sworn "them" was plural.

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I'm not wasting 45 minutes looking up mock drafts to prove you right, you'll just find some excuse to make up as soon as I do..

[exodus]

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Dude you are the one that turned this into a Law/Crittenton debate.

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No. You are the one avoiding the fact that it is a Law/Crit debate. The other players in the NBA are irrelevant because THEY AREN'T IN THE DRAFT.

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I like Law, my ONLY point is that you are basing your ENTIRE opinion on the top end speed of Crittenton.

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No I am also basing on the fact that Crit was by far the most turnover prone pg of the 3 (and we are a turnover prone team). He sucked in postseason and against strong teams.

The big reason people were talking about drafting him was his "upside" because of his height at athleticism. Turns out he is only 1" taller than Law and much slower. So the upside argument doesn't work as well when considering him against Law.

How many times do i have to explain this before you can grasp it?

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And you still haven't answered mine.

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Of course strength is part of athletism. but your pathetic attempt to act like strength is more important than speed is laughable since the smallest, quickest guys on every team are the pgs.

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I'm not wasting 45 minutes looking up mock drafts to prove you right, you'll just find some excuse to make up as soon as I do..

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You are the one who said "them". Judging from your response you just made that up.

[thesheedera]

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my ONLY point is that you are basing your ENTIRE opinion on the top end speed of Crittenton

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This has really reached a dead end. Exodus has repeatedly made it clear what he was saying. Before those test results it was largely thought to be Conley - Law - Crit, but a lot of people thought/hoped/expected Crit to rise as a rpospect due to the perception that he was an incredible athlete with incedible size.

Instead of him making that leap to put him in the running for best PG in this draft with the other two, his results were disappointing, and the reults for the other two really stood out.

Crit is not as much taller (is that the right grammar?) than Law as most thought he would be and Conley isn;t as short as some feared.

Crit is the slowest of the three in an isolated sprint, which surprised me with Law, but not with Conley. Still, it makes me question if he's the elite athlete I thought he was.

Conley is far stronger than I expected, and Crit again disappointed to some degree there.

His vert isn't as good as Conley's either, although obviously when combined with his height he can get up higher.

The point is that instead of Crit's combine results declaring him an elite level athlete and vaulting him into a direct competition for being the top prospect, the results actually worked against him a little.

Why is this point so difficult to get across?

[Spiral]

I agree with what your saying. However I'm one that puts very little stock in measureables. I feel they have their place, but I feel they carry way too much weight in some folks' eyes. I can give examples of workout warriors who flamed out and I can also give examples of atheletes who tested poorly that are just flat out studs.

I think this pretty much boils down to who does BK think helps us more. I personally like Crit more than Law, but I wouldn't be dissappointed with either. I like Conley more than both, but if we're not taking him at 3, I don't see him sliding by Milwaukee.

[thesheedera]

And that's the bigger picture.

For many of us the measureables were gonna be the first chance for Crit to really shine.

He was already behind the pack in what he's accomplished as a player and how scouts think he can play the position. That was the first stage:

1. What we've seen already and how it projects to a future NBA career

The second stage is maybe the least significant:

2. The player's combine results.

His measureables didnt advance him, they may have even dropped him FURTHER back than he was.

No one's basing everything on this second, less significant stage. It's just another step in the process, but surprisingly it worked against his already disadvantaged position when it was expected to help him.

His last chance to gain momentum is probably the second most significant of the three.

3. Individual/group workouts and interviews with teams.

He has an opportunity to pick up a ton of ground in this last stage, which is another stage where many expect him to excel. He disappointed in stage 2 a little bit, but if he's extremely successful in stage 3, he could end up being the top dog. Right now he has a ton of ground to make up.

[exodus]

One other thing to consider is his lack of experience relative to Law. BK seems to be shying away from inexperienced players judging by his comment about Wright and Conley on the radio recently.

[thesheedera]

Absolutely, that's something that concerns me a little about Conley, but frankly not so much moreso than Law. Law has more college experience, and played in a pretty similar level conference. However, he has exactly the same amount of NBA experience as Conley, and less experinece (I believe) in being the PG on a conference championship team or a NCAA tournament team. Conley in one season got more huge game experience than Law has had due to the other talent around them.

Law is considered "NBA" ready, but I've heard that so many times about players that still needed huge adjustments. I don't expect any of the 3 to be ready to run the team on their own next season. I'm more concerned about how they'll perform down the road. The learning curve is a hell of a lot steeper as a rookie in the NBA (if given playing time) than it is as a sophmore, junior and senior at Texas A & M.

But it plays a part for sure. Crit has far and away the least experience because his team didn't successfully play in any big games beyond regular games.

[AtLaS]

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No. You are the one avoiding the fact that it is a Law/Crit debate. The other players in the NBA are irrelevant because THEY AREN'T IN THE DRAFT.

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You must have poor reading comprehension, because I also like Law. My argument has NOTHING to do with Law, it has everything to do with you basing your entire opinion on Critt for his 3/4 court speed. I like both, and would be happy with either, I'm just saying that a 3/4 court sprint has NOTHING to do with a player's skills.

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No I am also basing on the fact that Crit was by far the most turnover prone pg of the 3

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Felton averaged 3.7 turnovers his junior year, Jack averaged 3.3 his junior year. Both have turned out fine.

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The big reason people were talking about drafting him was his "upside" because of his height at athleticism. Turns out he is only 1" taller than Law and much slower.

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I guess it doesn't matter that he's stronger while being 3 years younger, AND has about 5 inches on Law in vertical leap. But I guess 3/4 top end speed must be the end all argument..

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Of course strength is part of athletism. but your pathetic attempt to act like strength is more important than speed is laughable since the smallest, quickest guys on every team are the pgs.

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That wasn't my question. This was it. "how often does someone have to outrun someone 3/4 of the court for something?"

[AtLaS]

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Crit, but a lot of people thought/hoped/expected Crit to rise as a rpospect due to the perception that he was an incredible athlete

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And he was, with the exception of the 3/4 court sprint. For a 6'4+ PG with great shooting intangibles, great floor vision, good handles, and the ability to penetrate and score, I'd say he still has a TON of upside.

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Crit is the slowest of the three in an isolated sprint,

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Which proves nothing of a player's skill.

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Conley is far stronger than I expected, and Crit again disappointed to some degree there.

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Actually Law disappointed here. Critt did 11 reps as a freshman (which is great for a PG), while Law did only 8 as a senior. Sheedera, I shifted in favor of Conley almost a month ago, he is now clearly the #1 PG in my eyes, so if he's available I take him without question.

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His vert isn't as good as Conley's either, although obviously when combined with his height he can get up higher.

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Again, I would take Conley over Critt/Law anyway. But you can't knock a 38" vert. from a PG, that's very impressive, esp. for a 6'4"+ one.

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Why is this point so difficult to get across?

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It's not, and I see the results, I'm just saying that a 3/4 court sprint proves nothing of a players skills and/or quickness.

[exodus]

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My argument has NOTHING to do with Law, it has everything to do with you basing your entire opinion on Critt for his 3/4 court speed.

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So your entire argument is a strawman argument. I understand now.

Funny how you try to say your argument has nothing to do with Law. I guess you don't understand that the Hawks will be choosing between Crit and Law with the 11 pick if they go big at 3. I probably should have explained that to you earlier.

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Felton averaged 3.7 turnovers his junior year, Jack averaged 3.3 his junior year. Both have turned out fine.

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Neither has a good assist/turnover ratio now.

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"how often does someone have to outrun someone 3/4 of the court for something?"

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You mean like a fast break?