Trade?

[Guest]

Dog

Ham

for Terrell Brandon

I think TB contract ends one year sooner than Dogs...

If it does would you pull the trigger?

[Guest]

I posted a similar trade the other day after it was mentioned in an Insider article. It's a good trade, knowing that it's solely a move of addition by subtraction for us and GRob actually has the possibility of solid production in thier system, playing alongside KG and Wally.

Something just crossed my mind though, what do you think the current team would be like with the somewhat aging GP at the helm? What would it take to sign him? Thinking about it, it's not a bad lineup really:

[Admin]

next year already? Why would you deal a guy who has a lot of value in this league (much more than you obviously realize) for garbage to only gain 1 year of cap relief? Thats madness. Like Dogg or not, he can still shoot as well as anyone in the league, is a former #1 pick, and averages 20ppg every year. There are plenty of teams that would give up a lottery pick and a decent player for that. If JT could get us #12/Barry (though I doubt that it could)....Dogg could at least get us that and then some. I guess I just dont understand why some of you all are so willing to just give Dogg away for garbage.

[Guest]

This team is not a playoff team.Not enough talent...

Alan Henderson is our 6th man.You can make the arguement that he's our 5th best player.

"is a former #1 pick, and averages 20ppg every year. "

And he also gives it up.What do you gain if he gives

up the same thing he gets?What's so great about a

20PPG player that gives up atleast that much on

defense?Where is the gain?It's easy to try and

decide a players value just because he scores alot

on alot of shot attempts and plays 37MPG?How hard

is it really to average 20/6 when you play 37MPG and

can shoot whenver you feel like it?

"I guess I just dont understand why some of you all are so willing to just give Dogg away for garbage."

Because he is trash.He's a 6th man at best.In fact,he's

not much better than Rodney Rogers in the starting

lineup.

Joe Smith is also a former number 1 pick and so is

Derek Coleman...Are they worth alot?

[Diesel]

For 1 year, trading for Brandon is foolishness.

Now, if we could trade Hendu/CC for Brandon, now we are talking.

However, about Dog... I have to be like Denzel on Crimson Tide. All the facts are not in. I would like to see how Big Dog plays with Better PG play and better coaching. This whole cancer stuff just started this year. Sam Cassell was very straightforward in saying that Milwaukee should have never traded Big Dog.

[Guest]

I would like to see how Big Dog plays with Better PG play and better coaching."

Unless a coach can get Dog to play some defense it

really doesn't matter.Dog brings little benefit as a

37MPG player because he doesn't bring advanges

to you're team.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Unless a coach can get Dog to play some defense it

really doesn't matter.Dog brings little benefit as a

37MPG player because he doesn't bring advanges

to you're team.

---

We knew coming in that Big Dog was not a stellar defensive player. Why do we expect him to all the sudden become one now? That's like saying that Theo should become a 20 ppg player.

However, the dumb part of what you said is that for a 37 mpg player, He doesn't bring advantages to your team??? Hotlanta dude...

Find out HOW many SFs in this league produces 21 ppg/6.6 rpg.

First off, let's examine these other SFs.

On the list is:

Pierce, Rose, Mash, Marion, R. Davis, Stojak.

That's only 6 guys who reach Big Dog's level scoring. And Stojak scores 2.0 ppg less than Big Dog.

OF those 6 guys, only 2 (Stojak and Marion) had better FG% than Big Dog this year. Sadly, in previous years, Big Dog shot between 46-47% which would have meant that only Stojak would have had a better FG% than Big Dog.

Of those 6 guys... Big Dog ranked 5 of 7 in the area of assists. I know you want to rail on Big Dog for his turnovers... BUT Pierce and R. Davis turned the ball over JUST as much as Big Dog.

Of those 6 guys... Big dog ranked 4 of 7 in terms of rebounds with Marion, Pierce, Mash coming before him.

Now, say what you want Hotlanta. You can try to devalue all you can. The facts are here. Big Dog is a very good SF. He ranks ahead of most of the league. Like I said before, I would like to see him with different coaching and a different PG. For an example of what could be... Look at Jamal Mashburn under Riley then look at him under Silas. Many thought he was washed up with Riley. However, when he went to Charlotte, he became a great offensive player again.

I don't think that anyone can truly say about Big Dog that all the facts are in. Especially being that while he played in Milwaukee, he was an allstar SF who helped carry the load and was one shot away from the finals. His game didn't change overnight... Just over PGs and Coaching.

[Guest]

However, the dumb part of what you said is that for a 37 mpg player, He doesn't bring advantages to your team??? Hotlanta dude...

Find out HOW many SFs in this league produces 21 ppg/6.6 rpg."

You still fail to explain why this matters since he gives

up that production on most cases.Where do you get

benefits?This is what fails to be explains.I don't care

what stats say....Stats suggest JT is a good PG..But

we both know better don't we?

I mean if alot of other SF's played 37MPG and tanked

it and saved entergy just for offense they could average

21/6 also...If he was putting up those numbers and atleast

a DECENT defender then I'd agree with you.

"That's only 6 guys who reach Big Dog's level scoring. And Stojak scores 2.0 ppg less than Big Dog."

Peja plays on a far more talented team than any team

Dog has played on.

Like I said before....It's easy to play one side of the

floor and totally ignore the other...But why can't he

atleast be a decent defender?One reason is because

he's a outdated unathletic SF....

How can you be a good player when you can't simply

dribble better than a high schooler?I'd be willing to

bet that the high school team has players that are

better dribblers than Robinson.

And like Reef,Dog should have never made a allstar

team.

[Guest]

Honestly,are we anything more than those sorry

Baker/Dog/Douglas teams?Isn't it fitting that Mike

Dunleavy could be back to coach Dog/Reef like he

did Baker and Dog....Funny how things workout isn't

it?

Baker/Dog couldn't win games and neither will Dog/Reef.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

You still fail to explain why this matters since he gives

up that production on most cases.Where do you get

benefits?This is what fails to be explains.I don't care

what stats say....Stats suggest JT is a good PG..But

we both know better don't we?

---

What do you want... Ty Corbin Jr. or somebody who can actually give us something on offense. I preached to you all season and before that that we are a team built to outscore... Not to stop. In fact, defensive teams don't fair so well unless they can score. Look at Detroit and Miami. Well, I would rather have Big Dog here and find a team defense that works. Again... NEW COACHING. Y

However, you have to come back to reality Hotlanta. You want Paul Pierce but you only have Ty Corbin Money. IN other words... We have what we have. Big dog is not going to be a stellar defensive player so we might as well figure out how to get the most out of our team defense and then how to incorporate his offense into our team's offense.

In reply to:

---

I mean if alot of other SF's played 37MPG and tanked

it and saved entergy just for offense they could average

21/6 also.

---

Another bad Generalization. Do you know how hard it is to score 20 ppg in the nba. Especially when you are the 2nd option? I brought up that list of 6 Sfs... but the truth is that only 5 of them broke 20 ppgs. And most of them were first option scorers...

Pierce, R. Davis, Mashburn, Rose.... these guys were all first options for their teams. Only Peja was the other second option and he didn't break 20 ppg. Plus, for most of the season Webber was hurt so he played a significant amount of time as the first option in Sac-Town. However, you believe that it's like your place station and whoever you decide to control can score 20 a night. That's foolishness. Do you realize how long it has taken us as a franchise to get a Sf that can consistently score over 15 ppg? Since Nique/Manning. Now, you are naive enough to say that he doesn't give us any advantages? That's stupid. Even if he never stops his man.... He still can do a lot like... be a good second option, take the pressure off Reef, free up JT.... There's a lot.

In reply to:

---

Like I said before....It's easy to play one side of the

floor and totally ignore the other...But why can't he

atleast be a decent defender?One reason is because

he's a outdated unathletic SF....

---

I wouldn't say that Big Dog totally ignored the other say of the floor. Again, that's more of your hyperboyle and pessimism. I believe as a TEAM, our defense stunk. It was bad before Big Dog... Why did you think Big Dog would be the savior of it?? In Comparison to Toni, big Dog probably plays just a little better. Now, as for as him being outdated... What exactly does that mean? I agree, he's not athletic... But neither was Jordan his second time around. You remember Jordan went from flying over people to Backing down SFs and using the turn around. Nothing athletic about that. However, it doesn't make much difference that Big Dog is unathletic or that Reef is unatheletic because they both produce. Again. only 5 other Sfs in this league has put up anything close to 21/7. One of them recieved MVP talk.

Put Big Dog with a coach who knows how to use him. Just like Jordan reinvinted his game and Phil Knew how to use him, there's some coach that knows how to use Big Dog's game too.

However, don't have Lon trying to make Big Dog into a Point forward and tell me that it's all big Dog's fault that he looked so bad. Or don't have a team with no offensive scheme and tell me that their failing is all big dog's fault?

[Guest]

I want a player that can dribble atleast a little and a

overall more balanced player.There was probably one

year were Dog played decent defense....1998-99 the

Bucks only gave up 90PPG....Dog's offensive production

slipped to 18.4PPG/5.8RPG which isn't bad...but it goes

to show that he averages 21/7 because he only plays

one side of the floor.

Dog took the most shots on our team so quit trying to

act like he was playing second banana this year..C'mon

man you know better than that.

I don't see 20PPG as some huge monster accomplishment

like you do because I know why he averages 20PPG...Be-

cause he saves all his entergy for offense.It's alot easier

to score when you are offensive minded only.

"Big dog is not going to be a stellar defensive player so we might as well figure out how to get the most out of our team defense and then how to incorporate his offense into our team's offense"

You're going to get the same thing those mid 90's Bucks

got......No defense.

" In Comparison to Toni, big Dog probably plays just a little better. Now, as for as him being outdated... What exactly does that mean? I agree, he's not athletic... But neither was Jordan his second time around. You remember Jordan went from flying over people to Backing down SFs and using the turn around. Nothing athletic about that."

MJ was still more athletic than most of the guards he

was facing...Steve Smith/Reggie Miller are examples.

It's very hard for me to call Dog a good player when he

can't even simply dribble.How can you be a good SF if

you can't simply dribble?Like I said,there are kids at the

high school that are better dribblers than Dog.That's a

joke...but it's the truth.

Learn to no turn the ball over and play alittle defense..You

keep throwing words into my mouth that I'm expecting

PP and I never said that and I said I never expect Dog

to be a top defender, just be decent...But you have a

terrible habbit of putting words into people's mouth.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Bucks only gave up 90PPG....Dog's offensive production

slipped to 18.4PPG/5.8RPG which isn't bad...but it goes

to show that he averages 21/7 because he only plays

one side of the floor.

---

Tainted logic... Bad Reasoning.

One is not related to the other. There's no support or justification to your point. How do you think they relate?

[Guest]

If you save all you're effort to score and none on defense

you have a better chance at putting up 20PPG.Look at what

I just showed you....The year the Bucks actually played

defense Dog's numbers slipped.

His points,boards and assist all slipped.You can say pretty

much the same thing for any offensive only player.If you're

not digging in on defense you will not get tired and worn

down as much.

[Diesel]

You suggest that Big Dog's Points and Assists were down because he focused on defense more in 1998-1999 season becuase he took so much time focusing on defense?? That's what you insist....

However, why couldn't it be:

1. The Lack of a Good PG?

Cassell was traded late in the season but didn't play much. Before cassell came on board, they played Heywood Workman as the starter. I think they also used Dell Curry... But either way, they were hurting for PG help.

2. The fact that Grob played a career low 33 mpg as opposed to the 37-41 mpg that he's used to playing?

I'm sure this is it. Grob's numbers with Milwaukee were directly related. The more he played the better his stats. The year before, he played 41 minutes and averaged 23 ppg on 47% shooting.

Please try to connect apples and fish again there ARR. It's funny.

[Guest]

until that final post, ARR was definitely winning that argument. What was Dog's pg% that season D? I'm curious...

that season that you're talking about was his best season for Offensive Boards (with only a slight decrease in overall boards per game), and Blocks, and 3pt%. Combine that with only a slight decrease in fg%.

Now ~ thinking about it, that season, GRob's more athletic catagories were at an all time high (blocks, o boards) without much of a decrease in any major statistical catagory save ppg...and that one can probably be explained by his decreased minutes (which are, incidentally, more than likely due to his being slightly out of shape to start the strike season; YES, the season we're discussing is the strike season).

My question is this - without a pg worth a crap (unless you want to argue that whoever the [censored] heywood workman is, he's a better pg than JT) how come Dog's fg% didn't slip more? That was HIS team, with Ray Ray still relatively a youngster and not yet a league presence in terms of leadership.

[Guest]

. The fact that Grob played a career low 33 mpg as opposed to the 37-41 mpg that he's used to playing?"

Good POINT!When you play 38MPG most guys can pull

down 6 boards and 2 assist.It isn't that tough.

"1. The Lack of a Good PG?

Cassell was traded late in the season but didn't play much. Before cassell came on board, they played Heywood Workman as the starter. I think they also used Dell Curry... But either way, they were hurting for PG help."

I'll tell you what...IF Dog needs a allstar PG that Bad

it's pretty sad IMO.

People that watch games see a overweight,no dribbling

and talent limited jumpshooter that feels he has the

green light at will.

It's sad that a so called Pro can't even dribble in the open

court without turning it over.Explain to me why a Pro can't

do that?If you can't even dribble in the open court then

you can't be a good player.[censored],I've even seen Shaq run

a couple of fast breaks and hes a freakin center?

Dog is not a good player.When you give up as much as

you get you aren't a good player.

Just because he averages 21/6 doesn't make him a good

player just like 7APG doesn't make JT a PG.Look at how

he gets those numbers.If he's so great why don't he

average 27 or 28PPG?That's the only way he can make

up for his bad defense and lack of dribbling.

Nique was the same way...No defense and a ball hog and

that's why he was overrated.You're right,they're the same

overrated type of players.

A allstar PG will not change the fact that he can't play

defense...It will not change the fact that he gets abused

by athletic SF's...It will not change the fact that he

can't even handle the ball ANY...Not even to simply

rotate the ball(he'll take the shot if he even touches

it)

He doesn't do enough on the court to outweigh his

flaws.You aren't going to convince me that he does.

[Guest]

He uses the same arguement that people use to claim

JT is a PG....It isn't hard to pull down numbers in 38MPG.

I'm going to look through the SF's and see how many

play Dog's minutes and see what the deal is.

Mashburn

Marion

Peja

Jalen Rose

Ricky Davis

Rashard Lewis

Antwan Jamison

Paul Pierce

LaTrell Spreewell

Michael Jordan

Morris Peterson

Richard Jefferson

Derek Mason

Caron Butler

Those guys play between 34-41MPG

How many on the list is a worse defender than Robinson?

Davis and Rose is about it.Yes even mash is a better

defender than Robinson is.

Saying he averages 21/6 isn't enough to prove he's

a good player.If he gives up that production on alot

of nights what good is he?Richard Jefferson is a more

valuble player than Dog is......Lewis is a better and

more valueable player than Dog is....

I love it how Diesel tries to feed this Dog was a second

option trash.That's bull...

Dog and Reef don't hold much value when we are talking

about winning.They're are too many excuses made for

both.

Robinson needs a allstar PG to help cover his embarassing

dribbling.Nevermind the fact that his defense is still exposed.

Reef just never has a good enough coach or supporting

cast.As I asked you before Diesel...Where is that 25PPG

that Reef was going to average this year?

Dog's lack of versititly(sp?)really hurts a team.After his

scoring there isn't much to be said...His 6RPG comes from

playing 38MPG at the forward spot.95% of players playing

37MPG at the forward spot will grab 6 boards.The ones

that don't are more or less SG's like Rose and Spree...

I know Diesel likes to act like his 3APG is a big deal..But

is really when every other passing attempt is a turnover?

Not to mention his passes often come when he has no

other choice.

State wise his assist are pretty close to Cliff Robinson...

However,Cliff is alot better passer than Dog is and you

can tell it when you watch games.Dog averages the

same amount of assist as Shaq...But Shaq's a far

better passer than he is.

Diesel can have his stats...I'll take what I see on the

court.

[Guest]

The deal is that defense doesn't mean anything to

Diesel....That is the difference.The way I feel is that

he can average 20PPG all he wants, but if he's one

of the worst defenders in the entire league I don't

see much of a gain.NJ doesn't even have a 20PPG

scorer...But they are going to the finals....Detroit

barely has one and they were one step from the

finals....

Dog would be better off in another uniform...Heck,

he'd be better off in Philly than he would here.

Maybe Dog just needs to be on another team...I don't

see him being so succesful on such a one dimensional

team.We need a player that will contribute on defense

and he alot with Reef and JT doesn't do that.

Oh btw Diesel...You say Paul and Ricky get stripped

as much as Dog...Well,they attack the basket which

can lead to more turnovers...Dog averages 3.5 while

staying on the perimeter.

[Guest]

For once, I'm actually teaming up with ARR here ~maybe it's cause I'm trying to find anything that I can do to keep my mind off of studying for Boards.

I love it how Diesel tries to feed this Dog was a second

option trash.That's bull...

~yep. We've talked about it before, with his mpg/gp/etc. why is it that he still managed to chuck up far more shots than the "first" option who missed fewer games?

I just checked on something, out of curiosity. You take the entire team, according to the Hawks own website, and you know where dog rates on the scale, and by scale, I mean scale. 4th. [censored] third; Reef (6-9, 245), Ham (6'7, 250), and Nazr (6'10, 250)- he's 6-7, 240, tying him for 8th on the height scale with Ham and Ira. Interesting...and furthermore, when leaving Purdue, our good buddy GRob was listed as, and this took me a long while to track down, 6'8, 215 on the 1993 US Men's Basketball Team.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

The deal is that defense doesn't mean anything to

Diesel....That is the difference.The way I feel is that

he can average 20PPG all he wants, but if he's one

of the worst defenders in the entire league I don't

see much of a gain.NJ doesn't even have a 20PPG

scorer...But they are going to the finals....Detroit

barely has one and they were one step from the

finals....

---

MY point is still, we knew this coming in. ARR. I mean for goodness sake, who here expected Big Dog to be a defensive player?

I like to look at first reactions:

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat....amp;o=&vc=1

mine:

In reply to:

---

'm not happy about Big Dog's reputation or his lack of interest for Defense...

BUT I'm happy for Reef!!!!

Now, we have a full time threat at Sf. A guy who can hit the midrange Shot. This is Huge. The good Part is that we kept JT, Theo, and SAR!!!!

---

and yours is in here:

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat....amp;o=&vc=1

I want you to see what you said before in your examination of the Hawks....

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat....amp;o=&vc=1

In reply to:

---

This tells me more often than not we lacked

a 3rd option scorer. The rebounding didn't make

any difference in wins and losses.But look at

that scoring difference.

When you score only 89.3PPG in games it's

REALLY hard to win them.

We were 22-7 when we scored 100 points.

We are built to be a offensive team.With the

addition of Big Dog and Theo it should help.

We were 12-1 when we scored 100 points in

the second half of the season.We were nearly

unbeatable when we scored 100 points in the

second half of the season

---

Look at what was said a few days after the season was started:

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat....amp;o=&vc=1

Check out this thread... Look at what Dolfan suggests...

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat....amp;o=&vc=1

Now, Look at the pearl of wisdom from yours truly....

http://www.hawksquawk.net/forums/showflat....amp;o=&vc=1

In reply to:

---

So how will we be on defense....

I say we probably will give up about 93-94 ppg.

Fortunately, on offense, we should be able to outscore some teams. However, in order for us to do that, we should play Glover about 23-24 mpg. Not that DJ's offense is lacking. BUt with Big Dog and JT on the floor, it's good to have one guy who can score down the lane and baseline.

---

and Traceman gives us the quote we need:

In reply to:

---

Big Dog obviously won't be great

but I think he defends better than Kukoc and Kukoc was the guy penciled in as our starting SF before last season.

---

Now, nowhere in the first months of us getting Big Dog do I ever see you make mention that he will be a good defensive player. NOt even close to being good. In fact, the consensus amoung all of Hawksquawk was that He will be a terrible defender. However, now, you want to hold up him as a bad defender and say..... You don't see much gain? Please.

It's not that I devalue defense Hotlantadude... Get this really straight. I like defense...IF we had a defensive team. Like I have told you for 2 years now and YOU ALSO SAID IT... We are not built for defense. Even before getting Big Dog, we were not built for defense because of the presence of JT and SAR. Now if we want to be built for defense... We get DJ back. Trade JT for a defensive player and play Ira and take our losses with SAR because we need some sure offense. BUT as I have said often, we have our pieces and we know what they do. Big Dog has never been a defensive player.... Why expect him to be a great defensive player now. Theo has never cracked over 11 ppg, why expect him to be a 20 ppg C now? It's ridiculous right??

So is your argument.