Shareef.

[Playmaker0017]

HotLanta,

Webber didn't improve to Webber's level until his 5th or 6th year in the league... after he switched teams and got some players around him.

Do the same for Reef.

Reef is a GREAT player, with a big upside ... still! It hasn't been tapped yet. If we can tap it, we'd have a beast.

It is like he is in hibernation... once he wakes up... he'll be hard to contain...

The question is: what will wake him up? Wins? A great teammate? A tough coach? Fans?

Play.

[KB21]

Reef is only 26 years old. He's the 5th youngest player in league history to score 10,000 points. He's never had a major injury. And somehow, there are those on this board that want to make you think he has reached his potential.

The guy hasn't even reached his prime years yet. He's done nothing but produce and be one of the most efficient players in the NBA over his career. He hasn't won because he has yet to play on a quality team, and he has yet to have any continuity in his coaching. Name me a player that has had more coaching changes in his career than Shareef Abdur-Rahim.

Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Jason Terry are two players that the Hawks will build around. Billy Knight will make that very clear with his moves over the next couple of weeks.

[Playmaker0017]

KB21,

But, you didn't get the memo obviously.

The memo reads something like this:

"To all fans of the NBA,

You cannot be a good player unless you win championships. Even if the player is playing with high schoolers in wheelchairs, a star should be able to drag them out of the mires and win a championship.

At the very least, make the payoffs. Team talent and other players on the team have very little to do with a superstars ability to win.

Thank you,

THE NBA"

Seriously, if you look at the best players Reef has played with... either they don't compliment his game or aren't that good.

Let's look them over:

Bryant "Big Country" Reeves - Seriously. This guy could have been good. But, he chose not to be. He killed the Grizz single-handedly.

Mike Bibby - The most overrated PG in history. He plays in a great system with UNBELIEVABLE talent... and still is mediocre.

Mike Dickerson - Dion with blazing speed.

Glenn "Big Load" Robinson - This guy didn't compliment Reef in the least.

Jason Terry - He isn't a PG, he doesn't distribute well. But overall is the best player Reef has had as a teammate.

Really, wow! I mean, with that lineup Reef should have created a dynasty!

Bah!

Reef is a well of untapped skill. With the right crew, I think he'd surpass a lot of the guys we consider superstars on the offensive end of the court. Give him a coach and a complimentary player... and he'll kill!

Play.

[Guest]

Shareef Abdur-Rahim and Jason Terry are two players that the Hawks will build around. Billy Knight will make that very clear with his moves over the next couple of weeks."

Are you so sure?Didn't Billy Knight trade Reef once

already?I'd say the future is very bleak if these two

are the future.

The guy hasn't produced enough to take his team to

the playoffs.

Look at the eastern conference...If Shareef is such a

good player why couldn't he go to the playoffs with

Theo/Dog/JT?

Remember how weak the east is.

[Guest]

And you look...Paul Pierce doesn't have close to what

Shareef had to work with...yet Boston was still 4th

in the east....Poor ole Reef!lol

[KB21]

The Celtics had Paul Pierce in 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001. They've had Antoine Walker since 1996.

They didn't win in any of those seasons. The Celtics didn't start winning till they got themselves a coach who could motivate them and structured the team around their talents.

The Celtics are a perfect example of how a good coach can get two stars and a bunch of role players into a good system and win.

Once again. Reef has never had that. The closest he's had to a good coach is Brian Hill, and the Grizzlies were just too young to make any noise with him at the helm.

[Guest]

I don't think Shareef cares enough about the game

to be motivated.I mean the guy just says"There is

nothing I could do about it" and Riley and Dampier

basically insulted him.....and he didn't play with any

fire.

How is a fan supposed to have faith in a player like

that?

[KB21]

If that were the case, then Shareef wouldn't have one of the toughest off season training regimes of any player in the leauge. The guy comes into camp in top shape, which is a good reason he has never suffered a major injury. He leads by example on the floor, because he does work hard on the floor despite what you may believe.

He brings his game night in and night out. He is consistently one of the most efficient players in the NBA. Yet, you want to make him out to be some slug on the court and some loser because he has never been on a good team.

If you put half as much into your own life that Shareef puts into his game, you wouldn't be the brooding little snot nosed brat you are.

[Playoffs03]

I has been a huge fan of Reef since his rookie season. He is a good player, a hard worker, a very classy guy, but he is not a winner. Why? Because he doesn't have that mentality. If you look at guys like Pierce, MJ, Iverson, Kobe, T-Mac etc, they always want to prove themself as the BEST player in the planet and they understand that they are the head of their respective team. But Reef is more willing to sacarifice his personal achievement (being the best) in order to win. This is where the problem is. He needs to realize that he is the best player on the team and that he needs to play like the best for his team to win. There is no contradiction between his personal achievement and winning games for his team. But he never understands this point.

Last season when Big Dog was still around, Reef took way less shots, but shot a much higher percentage. He was willing to sacarifice the number of shots he take and let Dog be the best player on the team. The problem is, Dog is not the best player, he is. He will never be a leader that he can be if he doesn't change the way he is thinking. He might become a winner as a 2nd option but not a guy who can carry his own team.

Think differently, Reef!

[Guest]

If that were the case, then Shareef wouldn't have one of the toughest off season training regimes of any player in the leauge."

It's not hard to workout for a few months.Lots of people

all over the world do it.He doesn't look too in shape to

me...He doesn't run the floor really well at all.

"He brings his game night in and night out. He is consistently one of the most efficient players in the NBA. Yet, you want to make him out to be some slug on the court and some loser because he has never been on a good team. "

If what I've seen on the court is his example of leading

on the court I'm not impressed.The whole team(yes him

included)plays without fire 70% of the time.It's the truth

no matter if you want to deny it or not.Your a homer so

you probably will.

"If you put half as much into your own life that Shareef puts into his game, you wouldn't be the brooding little snot nosed brat you are."

LOL Do you know the guy personally?Are you there with

him to watch what he does?You talk as if you know the

guy or something.It's an example of why your an idiot.

All you can ever use for an arguement is statistics.You

can't use what you actually see on the court.

Your a homer fan.I'm glad I'm not stuck being a homer

fan like you are.

[KB21]

Reef is such a coachable player that he will go along with whatever the coach says. At the start of the season, Lon Kruger made it apparent that the offense was going to be designed around Glenn Robinson, for whatever reason. Reef went with it.

That's why it is very important to get a coach that will get Reef to take on that mentality. If he's told that he is the top option, he will respond. Look at his numbers when he had Brian Hill in Vancouver. The guy averaged 22.6 ppg under Hill as a 2nd and 3rd year player as a small forward. Brian Hill made sure Reef was the focal point in the offense, and Reef responded, even though he was only 20 and 21 years old at the time.

[Guest]

answer me this, who was the last pf to almost single handedly take a team to the playoffs?

[Guest]

With JT and Theo and Dog how was he single handly trying

to carry the team?

Tim Duncan and Kg are two.

[Playmaker0017]

Hots,

Why are you so contradictory to your own prior statements .. just so you can whine about someone?

Okay, let's look at the past statements of the unfallable Hots:

(1) JT: A pint sized scrub who shouldn't be on the team. He isn't a PG and basically wouldn't start for most teams and no team is interested in him. He stinks.

(2) Theo: A non-rebounder who can't play offense. His defense is suspect because all he does is look for blocks, which is truly unimpressive. Thus, Theo doesn't bring ANYTHING to the table.

(3) Loaf: A one-dimensional player who can't pass, dribble, defend, run, walk, shoot the three or rebound with any modicrum of skill.

Yet, now Hots turns these players into the best ... and Reef should have won with these scrubs.

Which is it Hots? Either they stink or they are good?

As for Reef not winning and pulling his team up by the bootstraps - the system wasn't designed for him. The only time the system WAS mostly designed for him was under Brian Hill (who still thought Bryant Reeves was Shaq2). Thus, in truth, Bryant was the true focal point a lot of the time.

Reef cannot turn a bunch of scrubs into winners. The only player on the lineup you showed that has any "real" all-around talent is JT. JT isn't a PG, and putting him there hurts the team. So, Reef is supposed to play through that handicap?!

As for the other teams having less talent at positions... blah, blah, blah... they have ROLE-PLAYERS and SYSTEMS designed for them.

Then you go on to point out prossibly the best players in basketball as single handedly bringing their teams to the playoffs.

Tim Duncan did not SINGLE-HANDEDLY bring the Spurs to the finals. He is a great player, but everyone knows the David Robinson allowed his freedom. That is why they immediately replaced Robinson with a similar player.

KG on the otherhand, is still a loser who can't get out of the first round, right? That would be your rap on Reef if he did the same thing. Also, KG in the past had the help in the form of a decent PG, a great player in Wally (who fills up a stat line), a dangerous SG (who played like a stud in MIN), and full sized centers.

Niether player has ever had lack-luster players around them. They have always had a "Toni Kukoc"-playmaker, a PG and a full-sized center.

Don't expect Reef to pull off miracles. He may not be vocal and act like a fool on the court ... but he rivals almost any player in the league on all-around talent.

And personally, I think that most of his talent is still untapped. We need someone who can hit that live wire to send Reef catapulting to the next level, because the talent and skill is there in bunches.

Play.

[Guest]

Acutally,the common thought around here is that JT

is a great PG blah blah and Theo is one of the best

centers in east....And Reef suppose so good...why

doesn't the team win in the east?

"Tim Duncan did not SINGLE-HANDEDLY bring the Spurs to the finals. He is a great player, but everyone knows the David Robinson allowed his freedom. That is why they immediately replaced Robinson with a similar player. "

How is rasho the same type of player? I don't remember

him being a good defensive player or shot blocker.

"a great player in Wally (who fills up a stat line), a dangerous SG (who played like a stud in MIN), and full sized centers."

You call Wally World a stud SG...He didn't look like a

stud in the playoffs did he?He really isn't any better

than JT.

If coaches and other players insult and he doesn't do

anything about it he never will.He's just a money mopup

player that will have nothing to show for his stats when

he retires.It's a crime that he's signed to 15mill as if

he even deserves it.

Oh and KG plays in the western conference....SAR plays

in the weakeast where it is easy to make the playoffs.Not

easy for him...because he's never won more than 35 games.

You guys cry that he's a poor victim of everything from

coaching,to the wrong players around him...Maybe if you

put a superstar around him he'll win then!!!!As if average

players couldn't in the weak east.

Look at Orlando....Don't see SAR carrying his team like

Tmac has done for a PF and centerless Magic.

At SAR pricve tag he should be a superstar and he is

not.

I defended this guy when the trade was made for about

half the season and as the losses started to pile up I

seen the whole truth about him.

[Playmaker0017]

Hots,

Do you even understand the sport of basketball? Do you even listen to the nonsense you espouse? Or is it that you love to push keys on your keyboard and they just happen to come out like rancid dairrhea?

Let's take the easiest one to trash ... Tracy "Fisheye" McGrady. First off, the record of 42-40 is not what I would call carrying anyone anywhere. But, let's just assume the giant seven game advantage means something. The Orlando Magic had a decent bench and a BUNCH of strong role-players. They knew where the offense would run to, and they were fine playing off of that. They had a decent PG, a decent PF, a decent SF... everyone on that team would have STARTED for the Hawks except over Reef and maybe Theo. Next, let's look at the positions. Hmmm... a PF and a SG. Man, there really is a comparison to be made! You dolt! SGs can control the tempo and pace of the game ... they are meant to dribble and drive... Reef cannot do that/Is not supposed to do that/Should not do that... expecting him to is folly. So, that is just lame.

Let's now look at your KG argument... would you not replace every player on the Hawks with every player on the Timerwolves? Of course you would, because they are upgrades across the board .. individually and as a team! As for Wally being a man, heck yes he is! He handles the ball well and creates. Playing well in the playoffs means what? That he isn't a good player throughout the season?! He takes the pressure off of KG and helps get the ball to KG in open positions. But, KG plays in the west, and although his roster is twice that compared to the Hawks... especially when it comes to the bench... it is tougher! No, the NBA is a team game and if you have a good TEAM you win.

Prior to that you went on to insult Rasho... while he is not a defensive upgrade to Robinson, they brought him in for height, because the two can play symboitically and use the height as a defensive power against opposing teams... and for his offense, so that the center and PF can't double Timmy-poo. Timmy-poo wouldn't dominate night-in and night-out if he received the attention Reef got. He'd have human stats.

So, you doubt Reef's skill in Atlanta after two years. The first of which was COMPLETELY injury laden and the second of which we KNEW the chemistry was wrong.

Yes, they are partial excuses... but Reef is a premier player. Despite what Pat Riley said, they still wanted Reef. Despite what some second string plug said... despite the fact that Reef answer honestly to a question ("What can you do?") ... he is a stud.

Put him on either team, he has success. He has never had a team or a coach the calibre of either TD or KG... heck or even Tmac...

You like to bash everything because of a single player not winning season games. Then you say the season means nothing, it's championships.

Personally, I don't think you know what it is... you just want to complain.

Play.

[Guest]

So we look...AT SAR's salary he should be a superstar

player.I mean,his salary will be up to 14mill next year

which is crippling the team.He simply isn't worth that

much nba value even.

Has he had top notch coaches?no

Has he played in a great system?No

I'd rather like him...and [censored],I've ripped a move or two

from him when I play ball.But it's the dissappointment

in his seemly careless attitude that I just don't under

stand.And he's the best player on a team that doesn't

win so he's been the easiest to rip over the last two

years.

If he showed he wanted it more I wouldn't rip him as

bad.But he's gone through the motions since being

here.Not caring to make others that rip him pay.

What do you think Shaq would do if Pat Riley said"he's

a 20PPG scorer on a bad team" or "He's predictable be-

cause he always goes the opposite way"What do you

think Shaq would do to Erik Dampier for saying that?

You can say what you want about guys like Paul Pierce

and their system...but when things breakdown they are

determined to do what it takes to be sucessful.Reef

has not shown that attitude...And after 7 years in the

league I don't think he's going to.

[Playmaker0017]

Hots,

When Reef entered, he had the eye of the tiger... he wanted and would do anything to win... but he has become accustomed to losing.

His fault or no... the losses mounted. What would you do? Eventually, you learn to live with it. Doesn't matter who you are. That is why I say you get a coach who will pin him up ot the rafters and make him fight. You start to win and Reef will start to get hungry. It is hard to be hungry when you are starved beyond recognition ...

Shareef IS a superstar. He is hiding half of his game and playing lazy. I admit it. But, I find it hard to fault him. Sure, I say I would be different... or KG would be... but typically a player in a losing system learns to cope with losing. It takes some serious wins to get him awake! Unfortunate, but true.

Paul Pierce wasn't able to win when the chips were down. He couldn't get it done until last year. Last year, he had a coach that had the team buy into the PP/AW show - a hard sell.

Kevin Garnett couldn't really come into his own until Marbury came along. Then he learned how to open up his game and it continues to open.

Tim Duncan started out with David Robinson and was groomed.

Who has Reef had? No one. Not a player. Not a coach. No one. It takes a TEAM to win. Without the right pieces, all you can do is get your stats.

You can say these players single-handedly win the games, but I don't agree. I think if you were to switch players, midstream, you would have similar results. KG in Atlanta might win an extra 5 games, because he still has his eye of the tiger. Reef in MIN might lose an extra 5 games, but the next year ... Reef would be hungry again. KG might win 40, because he still wants to win. But, if he keeps getting thwarted by Big Dog, Big Country, Big Coaching Changes... he will be what Reef is now... a hollow example of what he should be.

You can't deny it, because I can't prove or disprove my thoery and neither can you. Garnett has never won on a team as poor as Reef's and vice versa.

Play.

[swolehawk2]

Both of your posts don't mean anything really....who knows what kind of players we have and team we can have? Until we get a good experienced coach in here...we have no clue what kind of team this can be.

[Playmaker0017]

Swole,

That is my point.

We don't have a coach.

We don't have a system.

We don't have players in a system.

We have individuals that have been taught to go one-on-one ALL THE TIME!

KG, TD, TMac, Kobe, Shaq, Malone, etc.. they all have coaches and a system. Plus all of them have complimentary pieces to fit the system.

We have none of that. Yet, people blame Reef for not winning.

OKAAAAAAAY! That's reasonable.

Besides, Swole... this is the only conversation going on right now... please don't kill it. P

Play.