Taking a look at this addition by Subtraction theo

[Diesel]

You guys believe that losing Big Dog helps a team......

Especially for NOthing.

I thought about it and I looked at Milwaukee.

Last year, their major move was the subtraction of Big Dog but they added Kukoc who everyone said made those around him better.

Well, before the Ray Allen trade....

Feb 21 2003: Milwaukee - 27-27.

However with Big Dog,

Feb 20, 2002: Milwaukee - 30-22.

Now... That was Milwaukee subtracting Big Dog and adding a player who everyone agrees makes those around him better...

http://www.nba.com/features/bucks_hawks_021205.html

I also looked at the splits for the Hawks to test this theory.

Feb 22, 2002 - Hawks 19-36.

Feb 22, 2003 - Hawks 21-34.

This doesn't mean as much because there were multiple changes in Atlanta. BUT one thing it does mean is that if we lose Big Dog altogether with NO Kukoc or nothing in return, we might be lucky to have 10 wins by Feb.

Addition by Subtraction?

[jeddelong]

Have you ever heard of a fallacy? Look it up....

[Guest]

I think we should trade Theo and get some guard/forward

help and start Nazr at center then we might be good to

go.

What could Theo/pick land us?

Then we could start Nazr and not be as bad off.

JT/???/Diaw/Shareef/Nazr

Can we get a good SG or SF for Theo?

[mrhonline]

they added Ray Allen AND Milwaukee's after they added Gary Payton. Explain the difference. I'm interested in your take.

[Diesel]

MHO,

Allen is a player who needs to be the focus of the offense. That's why he couldn't get along with Big Dog, Cassell, or Redd. Going to Seattle worked for him because Lewis is a good player but can't carry a team. Won't Carry a team.

In the second part of that trade, Payton Knows Karl AND getting rid of Allen allowed Redd and Cassell to share SG while Mason played SF. Mainly though, Payton is just a good PG and he had a lot of pieces to work with plus with Mason and Toni on the floor, TT didn't play much more than needed.

[mrhonline]

IMO, though, Allen is a *far* superior player to Robinson. Although it's tough to compare a SG to a SF, Allen instantly became the leader of the Sonics in a tough division, whereas Robinson floundered in the EC in Atlanta, as did the Cassell/Payton mess in Milwaukee (remember that they almost missed the playoffs even with Mason AND Payton).

Why do I think Allen was more successful? As you point out, team chemistry had a major role and I think it was b/c Allen is the only one of the now defunct "Big 3" who knows how to be unselfish.

IMHO, the Hawks were more formidable with a healthy Kukoc in the lineup than Robinson b/c they played better as a team. It remains to be seen whether Diaw and the other new additions can provide that chemistry...

But it could be worse, we could be Knicks' fans...

[Diesel]

I have to disagree a bit... Allen is not the unselfish player you make him out to be. I think he's very selfish. I think he worked better with Toni because Toni was unselfish. But they still lost more with Toni than with Dog.

The other part about the difficulties of Allen and the Big 4...

Allen was injuried, Cassell was Injuried and Dog was injuried a little. However, during the time of Injury, Dog and Red stepped up as offense for he Bucks. They didn't break down until after the break when Cassell and Allen came back.

In Seattle, I don't think Lewis has the personality to be a game breaker. Sure he can score points but I don't think he's selfish enough to be a star. That's why Allen was able to go there and succeed.

Had Allen Come here, we would have had the same problems we had with Big Dog. I would say worse. Allen is notorious for coming down the court and jacking up a three from almost the 3/4 line. I agree that Ray knows how to be unselfish, but for how long. Ray and Dog got along wonderfully and it led them to the ECFs. The Next year, add Mason, add problems. Too many hands, not enough balls.

[KB21]

Upon being traded to Seattle, Allen's numbers went up in every category. He averaged 24.5 ppg as well as 5.9 apg. That last stat is hardly a stat from a selifsh player. Ray Allen is more than willing to pass the ball around.

Ray Allen should be the focal point of an offense. He's good enough to be the #1 option. Glenn isn't good enough to be a #1 option. He just thinks he is good enough.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/story?id=1587078

Karl, who was 205-173 in five seasons in Milwaukee, said his biggest regret was not having a better relationship with Allen.

Gee. You don't see Karl talking about wishing he had a better relationship with either Robinson or Cassell.

[Diesel]

Hello...

They really didn't have a PG. Barry and Allen switched up playing the PG. Again, just because he had assists doesn't mean he wasn't selfish. Micheal Jordan put up 8 apg when he played PG... However, the team couldn't win becuase of Jordan's selfishness. Iverson was a 7.5 apg PG but the team couldn't win because Iverson was more willing to take the shot than to Pass.

That's why I laugh when I see you arguing JT's ability as a floor leader based on Stats... Both Jordan and Iverson played the PG position and failed.... However, they put up very good statlines. JT does the same. Just like Jordan and Iverson, JT doesn't make those around him better because he can't effectively "RUN" an offense. He's not a playmaker.

[mrhonline]

how did Milwaukee go from 27-26 (50.9%) before the trade to 15-13 (53.6%) after the trade with TWO PG's? [An improvement of 2.7%)

WHILE

Seattle went from 22-30 (42.3%) before the trade to 17-12 (58.6%) after the trade with NO PG's? [An improvement of 16.3%]

If you don't have a "true" PG, you can still win in the NBA, but you must have at least *two* capable ballhandlers. If Barry and Allen could do it, then JT and another capable, starter-quality SG could do it.

Look at who the Sonics added to replace the "typical" backup PG in Kevin Ollie - the "typical" combo guard - Antonio Daniels.

Look at Dwayne Wade, Gilbert Arenas, Nick Van Exel, et al. The distinction between the "1" and the "2" is changing to a "Big Guard" and a "Small Guard."

JT is a "small guard." Only teams that have an All-Star quality SG can afford to just have a mediocre "floor general" at the "1."

Replace Tony Parker with JT, and the Spurs improve. Same thing with Troy Hudson in Minny. Cassell in Milwaukee. And so on.