Nocioni for Marvin

[Atlantaholic]

Nocioni is making about the same amount of money this year as Marvin, but is on contract for just one more season after this one (with a team option for the third year). We would save some money next year since Marvin's contract increases to 7.5 million next season, and we would have him off the books sooner, in case we need the cap flexibility. It also gives us somebody who plays with extreme intensity both on offense and defense, plus he can nail the three pointer at a very good clip. I think he would fit in perfectly with us since he would have plenty of open threes available all game which is really the man's specialty, plus he gives us more more intensity and attitude, which is something we sorely need.

Thoughts?

[Eddielives]

I would consider nocioni an upgrade offensively. Defensively it's probably a wash.

[Joker]

I wouldn't any deal for with our core to I see what big dogs are out there first.

[coachx]

Nocioni and Bibby would both be expiring contracts next year. Perhaps they could be flipped together for a nice player.

I don't think it upgrades the current team at all but it adds a valuable trade chip next year.

[Wretch]

I have always liked Nocioni. He has that toughness and edginess about him. Nocioni, Horford, and Josh Smith is a scary thought (defensively). I might do this deal...

[IHeartAtlanta]

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW..............................

NOOOOOOOOOOO DEAL

[Atlantaholic]

Per 36 minutes career numbers:

Nocioni: 16.5 pionts 6.9 rebounds 43% FG 37% Three points percentage.

Marvin: 13.7 Points 6.2 Rebounds 45% FG 29% Thre point percentage.

and take into account Nocioni is on a shorter, slightly less expensive contract... I don't see why this doesn't help us, especially considering that Marvin's 3 point % over his last 4 months of basketball is at around 20%.

[benhillboy]

I'd pull the trigger. Everytime I see Nocioni he plays like he truly values his job and salary. Can't say the same for Messy.

[Dakin]

Why would the other team do this?

[AHF]

Why would the other team do this?

Probably because you are trading a guy who is 31 years old this month and averages 9.9 points, 4.1 rebounds for a guy who is 24 years old, averaging 9.9 points and 5.6 rebounds, and is paid the same amount per year. Since 2008-09 to the present, Marvin is scoring more efficiently and rebounding more per minute. He just isn't shooting as much as Nocioni:

2008-09 - 2010-11

Marvin: .552 ts%, 6.4 rp36

Nocioni: .531 ts%, 5.95 rp36

They are trending the wrong way in their stat lines with Marvin much better than 4 years ago and Nocioni much worse.

[Atlantaholic]

Probably because you are trading a guy who is 31 years old this month and averages 9.9 points, 4.1 rebounds for a guy who is 24 years old, averaging 9.9 points and 5.6 rebounds, and is paid the same amount per year. Since 2008-09 to the present, Marvin is scoring more efficiently and rebounding more per minute. He just isn't shooting as much as Nocioni:

2008-09 - 2010-11

Marvin: .552 ts%, 6.4 rp36

Nocioni: .531 ts%, 5.95 rp36

They are trending the wrong way in their stat lines with Marvin much better than 4 years ago and Nocioni much worse.

How is Marvin "much" better than four years ago???

Four years ago:

PER: 12.2

PER 36 mins: 13.9 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 51 TS%

This Year

PER: 12.6 (Last year it was 13)

PER 36 mins: 12.1 PPG (12 last year) 6.9 RPG (6.1 last year) TS: 545%

He's pretty much giving us the same amount of production save for a slightly higher rebound rate and scoring efficiency. Not to mention his outside shooting has been getting worse by the month since his 2008 campaign.

In fact the last three years (counting the current year) he has been getting worse, not better:

2008: PER: 16

2009: PER: 13

2010: PER: 12.6.

Nocioni has been moving around and playing for some terrible teams. Not saying it's a sure thing he would be better for us, but considering his contract is shorter, it's worth a shot if Marvin doesn't start performing like at least a starting caliber player before the deadline.

[Dakin]

Probably because you are trading a guy who is 31 years old this month and averages 9.9 points, 4.1 rebounds for a guy who is 24 years old, averaging 9.9 points and 5.6 rebounds, and is paid the same amount per year. Since 2008-09 to the present, Marvin is scoring more efficiently and rebounding more per minute. He just isn't shooting as much as Nocioni:

2008-09 - 2010-11

Marvin: .552 ts%, 6.4 rp36

Nocioni: .531 ts%, 5.95 rp36

They are trending the wrong way in their stat lines with Marvin much better than 4 years ago and Nocioni much worse.

Nocioni is better than Marvin and actually seems motivated when he's on the floor. Plus he can make big 3s. Didn't he get a play drawn up this season against the Hawks, with the game on the line. Do you think any coach would do that for Marvin?? HA. Who cares if he's older? Are you still waiting for Marvin to develop? He is what he is. The only reason the age difference should matter is if you look forward to Marving being here when his current contract runs out. Ugh. Nocionni is better now and will be better next year, and that's all that matters.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Dakin

[Atlantaholic]

To be completely honest, I'm not sure we would be significantly better with Noc, but the fact that several people are on board with this move shows how disappointing Marvin was last season and continues to be so far this year. My brother suggested this trade three years ago and I told him it was a bad move because of the age factor... Well, right now I think everyone is pretty much done with seeing how Marvin will develop, since his performance the last two seasons have been a pretty decent indicator that we have seen the best Marv has to offer. The man has gotten nothing but clean looks at the basket and can put up nothing but very sub par offensive numbers,

BTW, for those that argue that Marvin isn't a bust.

Darko Milicic's career PER: 12.4

Marvin Williams' career PER: 13.6

Edited November 19, 2010 by Atlantaholic

[MaceCase]

Nocioni is better than Marvin and actually seems motivated when he's on the floor. Plus he can make big 3s. Didn't he get a play drawn up this season against the Hawks, with the game on the line. Do you think any coach would do that for Marvin?? HA. Who cares if he's older? Are you still waiting for Marvin to develop? He is what he is. The only reason the age difference should matter is if you look forward to Marving being here when his current contract runs out. Ugh. Nocionni is better now and will be better next year, and that's all that matters.

No, he did not. That play was drawn up for Iggy seeing as he was lights out all game but Joe played tremendous defense on him not allowing him to receive the pass back off the inbounds. Noc couldn't get the pass off so he took a step back for a desperation three that Smoove blocked then the whole Squawk blew up saying that Smoove won the game when it was Joe who kept the ball out of the Sixers' best player's hands.

BTW, for those that argue that Marvin isn't a bust.

Darko Milicic's career PER: 12.4

Marvin Williams' career PER: 13.6

Jamal's career PER is 15.4, is Jamal a bust?

Edited November 19, 2010 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[GameTime]

Jamal's career PER is 15.4, is Jamal a bust?

Yes.

[MaceCase]

Yes.

+1, my friend. I'm just laughing that he'd bring up that Marvin's a bust because his PER is close to someone else who is considered to be one all while his OP is to trade for a guy who has a lower career PER than Marvin's. What criteria are we using again to clarify the reasoning for this trade?

[AHF]

How is Marvin "much" better than four years ago???

Four years ago:

PER: 12.2

PER 36 mins: 13.9 PPG, 5.6 RPG, 51 TS%

This Year

PER: 12.6 (Last year it was 13)

PER 36 mins: 12.1 PPG (12 last year) 6.9 RPG (6.1 last year) TS: 545%

He's pretty much giving us the same amount of production save for a slightly higher rebound rate and scoring efficiency. Not to mention his outside shooting has been getting worse by the month since his 2008 campaign.

In fact the last three years (counting the current year) he has been getting worse, not better:

2008: PER: 16

2009: PER: 13

2010: PER: 12.6.

Nocioni has been moving around and playing for some terrible teams. Not saying it's a sure thing he would be better for us, but considering his contract is shorter, it's worth a shot if Marvin doesn't start performing like at least a starting caliber player before the deadline.

Yeah!!!

2008: Marvin PER 16, Nocioni PER 12.2

2009: Marvin PER 13, Nocioni PER 11.1

2010 Marvin PER 12.6, Nocioni PER 12.1

So Marvin has been better every season.

What are we arguing again here?

The only statistical reason to do this move is to get out of Marvin/Nocioni's contract sooner. And I say that with all the disappointment in Marvin's performance last year and this.

[Atlantaholic]

No, he did not. That play was drawn up for Iggy seeing as he was lights out all game but Joe played tremendous defense on him not allowing him to receive the pass back off the inbounds. Noc couldn't get the pass off so he took a step back for a desperation three that Smoove blocked then the whole Squawk blew up saying that Smoove won the game when it was Joe who kept the ball out of the Sixers' best player's hands.

Jamal's career PER is 15.4, is Jamal a bust?

He has certainly been pretty bad this year, and aside from last year, he wasn't exactly a highly touted player. Also he was like the 10th pick right? totally different level of expectation than a number 2. I would say overall Jamal has had a decent/good career relative to his draft position. I brought up Milicic's PER because he is viewed as the worst number 2 pick in NBA history, and Marvin has not played a heck of whole lot better than him.

Obviously I'm not using PER as the end all of everything when proposing this trade. I think Nocioni can improve his play with us since he would feast in all the wide open looks he would get, something he hasn't had the luxury of being able to do in the terrible teams he has played in the last few years. I definitely think his intangibles are more valuable than Marvin's also, since he seems to get under peoples skin and play with a passion that Marvin has not displayed ever in his time with us. He was pretty much the heart and soul of that Chicago team back in playoffs of 2005-2006.

[coachx]

The only statistical reason to do this move is to get out of Marvin/Nocioni's contract sooner.

Bingo ! The deal DOES NOT make the Hawks better today but it has the potential to help Sund make a good trade since he would have another expiring contract next season. That is why Sund would make the deal if it fits into a longterm plan.

We all know this team is not going to win a championship with this current roster. The Hawks probably cannot pay to keep Jamal Crawford. They can't really trade him for a longer contract without dumping other pieces either. The Hawks probably can't add a significant replacement piece in free agency if there is still a cap and luxury tax in the next CBA. The only way I see they can improve the roster is a trade. The only reason to do the deal is to look a head at a follow up deal.

Bibby + Nocioni, as expiring contracts next season, could be flipped for a really nice player as soon as this coming off season (similar to Sund's Crawfrord trade.).

If a deal like this happens that is the only rational that I can see for doing it.

Edited November 19, 2010 by coachx

[MaceCase]

He has certainly been pretty bad this year, and aside from last year, he wasn't exactly a highly touted player. Also he was like the 10th pick right? totally different level of expectation than a number 2. I would say overall Jamal has had a decent/good career relative to his draft position. I brought up Milicic's PER because he is viewed as the worst number 2 pick in NBA history, and Marvin has not played a heck of whole lot better than him.

Obviously I'm not using PER as the end all of everything when proposing this trade. I think Nocioni can improve his play with us since he would feast in all the wide open looks he would get, something he hasn't had the luxury of being able to do in the terrible teams he has played in the last few years. I definitely think his intangibles are more valuable than Marvin's also, since he seems to get under peoples skin and play with a passion that Marvin has not displayed ever in his time with us. He was pretty much the heart and soul of that Chicago team back in playoffs of 2005-2006.

Ah, still bringing up far in the past qualifiers to discuss present circumstances.

Fact of the matter is this trade is and will be looked at as nothing more than a contract dump. The talent just won't and hasn't been equal.