Teague vs. Dennis (what has to be fixed)

[rd79]

On average, Europeans appear to be more process oriented in learning as opposed to results oriented. You see it most often with math where the American education is more multiple choice based and focused on having the right answer, no matter how you got there. Which is dangerous with math, because you can do strange things to get the right answer that do not generalize:

So when you focus more on the process, you become more objective and start to see the picture a bit better. If all you care is how many points were scored instead of how they were scored (or recognize that random variation is at play), then you aren't as objective. From what I've seen, our German posters are better at that than the average poster on this board.

 

Ok, you're right about the process oriented focus. But that doesn't make German sports forums different.

But simple minded posters wont post here because they aren't able to post in a foreign langauge, that could be a reason for your positive picture of foreign/European posters.

[SalvorMallow]

True about a biased sample of Europeans that I encounter. They are more intelligent on average since I don't see the non-English speaking Europeans. But I think being objective is only weakly correlated with intelligence, there are certainly very intelligent people who cannot be objective at all. I guess if the two are correlated then that could be an issue, or that the English speaking Europeans are inherently more objective then that could be an issue as well.

But the process oriented versus results oriented is something that makes individuals on Sports Forums look biased and that seems to be the big issue I'm pointing out. I wish more posters could recognize the difference.

 

How do you measure intelligence in the Americans and Europeans that you encounter?  

 

Oh, you're American educated as well so your biases probably contribute to your opinions just as much as the rest of us neanderthals.

[SalvorMallow]

OK well if you're already assuming what biases I have then this is going nowhere. Fantastic discussion.

 

If you make claims that the majority of people from an entire continent of disparate countries with varying educational systems are generally more objective, then you are obviously biased.  

 

You follow that up by an irrelevant straw man involving mathematics.

Edited May 3, 2015 by SalvorMallow

[Ebert]

Every region in Europe is very different, you can't talk about Europe as an homogeneous thing. 

 

What may happen is that (even europeans) when you say the word "Europe" think in Germany...

[DS17Fanboy]

Dennis posted an individual defensive rating of 107 in that series, the worst among all of the rotation series.

He also posted an individual offensive rating of 85. Only Kent Bazemore was worse.

The most telling stat about Dennis in that series, is that he had a Usage % of 30.2 .... normally only superstar scorers have usage percentages in the 30 percentile range. This speaks volumes to what his mindset on offense is.

I'm a Dennis supporter. But he didn't come close to running the offense in that series, and the Hawks suffered for it. He needs to calm down, get other people involved, and pick the right time to look for his own offense.

6 games is a small sample size and actually when we take a step back from the gods of rational and the almighty statistics worshipping, then we might discover that Dennis indeed had some bad plays going, but that those 107 numbers etc might sometimes actually have allot to do with being in the wrong place at the right time and getting unlucky in face of the stats-god.

 

For instance being subbed in when the 1st quarters have been stellar. In B-ball(this game of runs)its rare that an NBA playoffs team isnt getting back into it.

 

Then Dennis is the only srs rotation player of the bench together with Antić and Bazemore. Who get to play allot more in the role of sidekick players in the 1st and 4th with the starters, while Dennis on his Hawks important PG position has to be a player who sets the tone. So when things go sauer it will get noticed by stats-god, while other players can hide a little behind being in different rotations and not being asked to carry the load.

 

That being said...and I hate to say it. The only Hawks game that was blatantly given away, was tonights game, and Dennis had no role in doing so. Actually, all this onesided criticism also maybe within the Hawks organisation might had to do with him only playing 14 minutes(9 points on 57FG%, 4Ast, 3Reb, 1To), and Teague not feeling the pressure like he did for most of the season, and being to caught up with knowing he will stay out there and being halfarsed allot of the times.

 

B-Ball is a game of runs, a game of match-ups, and dare I say it in front of the stat-god, a game of luck sometimes.

Edited May 3, 2015 by DS17Fanboy

[Diesel]

6 games is a small sample size and actually when we take a step back from the gods of rational and the almighty statistics worshipping, then we might discover that Dennis indeed had some bad plays going, but that those 107 numbers etc might sometimes actually have allot to do with being in the wrong place at the right time and getting unlucky in face of the stats-god.

 

For instance being subbed in when the 1st quarters have been stellar. In B-ball(this game of runs)its rare that an NBA playoffs team isnt getting back into it.

 

Then Dennis is the only srs rotation player of the bench together with Antić and Bazemore. Who get to play allot more in the role of sidekick players in the 1st and 4th with the starters, while Dennis on his Hawks important PG position has to be a player who sets the tone. So when things go sauer it will get noticed by stats-god, while other players can hide a little behind being in different rotations and not being asked to carry the load.

 

That being said...and I hate to say it. The only Hawks game that was blatantly given away, was tonights game, and Dennis had no role in doing so. Actually, all this onesided criticism also maybe within the Hawks organisation might had to do with him only playing 14 minutes(9 points on 57FG%, 4Ast, 3Reb, 1To), and Teague not feeling the pressure like he did for most of the season, and being to caught up with knowing he will stay out there and being halfarsed allot of the times.

 

B-Ball is a game of runs, a game of match-ups, and dare I say it in front of the stat-god, a game of luck sometimes.

 

I have to disagree on many counts.

However, let's just say this.  Basketball is about matchups.  Dennis was overmatched vs. Dwill and Jack.  Bottom line.  Those guys just had more experience than he.  As I have said before, if he takes the lesson, he will be better in the future.  He has a lot of potential and maybe it's youth but he doesn't seem to run Bud's offense when he's in the game.  He uses Bud's offense to get himself points most of the time.

 

Seems good when he scores but when you have a team that is used to working hard and sometimes being rewarded by the offense and they see a guy who doesn't really play within the offense, there's a domino effect.  That's what we don't need.  That's probably why he did not play game 1.   In the second half, all of our guys started to Settle for outside shots and they abandoned the offense somewhat.

I'm sure that Bud spent all of yesterday... preaching his offense and reminding them of how successful it can be.  Dennis has to take the lesson.

 

Nobody here doubts Dennis' talent.  Nobody here misses the strides he has made from last season to this one.  Nobody here misses the fact that he does put some pressure on Teague if you're looking from the outside.  However, the problem is that Dennis can't think that way and sometimes, I believe that he does.  His attitude... not his talent is what I have pointed to.  Namely, you don't have to make the showboat pass.  You don't have to score every time you see an opening.  Sometimes, it's better to pass up a good shot for a great shot. 

Now let's talk about Teague for a second.  When Teague first got here I nickednamed him Blink.. because he was as fast as a hiccup.  In fact, he can blow right passed most defenders most of the time.  Under Bud, he has learned that he doesn't have to be the Iso player that he tried to be earlier in his career.  In fact, it's better when he rewards his bigs.  It's better when he runs a good PNR.  Like Tony Parker, he's going to learn his spots and when to take over.  However, his command of the offense is much better than Dennis from the perspective that he's not trying to make it about him.  Will that always be?  Doubtful.  I suspect that Dennis will either learn his role or Bud will send him off.  The start in Atlanta is the offense.

[rd79]

I'd bet Dennis does exactly what Bud tells him to do. He talks a lot with Bud even during plays. If he wouldn't do what Bud tells him, he wouldn't be on the team or at least the rotation any more.

No coach of the year would accept a 21 years old sixth man to look for bis own shot instead of running the offense...

Edited May 5, 2015 by rd79

[Diesel]

I'd bet Dennis does exactly what Bud tells him to do. He talks a lot with Bud even during plays. If he wouldn't do what Bud tells him, he wouldn't be on the team or at least the rotation any more.

No coach of the year would accept a 21 years old sixth man to look for bis own shot instead of running the offense...

This is where we disagree.

 

They used to call Kobe Showboat when he first arrived in LA.  Even though he didn't stop Showboating, Phil Jackson continued to play Showboat and even allow Eddie Jones to leave town so that "Showboat" could get more minutes.

 

Every coach of the year faces players that are stubborn or immature.  They don't trade those guys.  What makes those coaches great coaches is that they get those guys to see the vision.  I said previously that Dennis plays outside of the offense maybe 70% of the time.  That means 30% he's perfect within the offense.  I'm sure that Bud sees the 30% and is inspired to hope that Dennis getting more comfortable with the offense and learning to trust the offense will propel him to 50, 70, or 90%.

[CrazyEye]

So you mean as a great Coach phil jackson stopped Kobe from showbating?

And i think with kobes Talent, you are going to sacrifice your philosphy a bit ... I dont think Dennis is comparable with Kobe talentwise - and they do it usually forbgreat players not dor players who maybe get good ones

[Diesel]

So you mean as a great Coach phil jackson stopped Kobe from showbating?

And i think with kobes Talent, you are going to sacrifice your philosphy a bit ... I dont think Dennis is comparable with Kobe talentwise - and they do it usually forbgreat players not dor players who maybe get good ones

 

I'm saying, Kobe learned to play the triangle the way Phil wanted him to.  I agree that you change your philosophy for Greatness.  Pat Riley with Shaq for instance.  I also agree that Dennis is no Kobe.  But, I maintain that Bud will do what he can to make Dennis change before giving up on him totally.

[DS17Fanboy]

I have to disagree on many counts.

However, let's just say this.  Basketball is about matchups.  Dennis was overmatched vs. Dwill and Jack.  Bottom line.  Those guys just had more experience than he.  As I have said before, if he takes the lesson, he will be better in the future.  He has a lot of potential and maybe it's youth but he doesn't seem to run Bud's offense when he's in the game.  He uses Bud's offense to get himself points most of the time.

 

Seems good when he scores but when you have a team that is used to working hard and sometimes being rewarded by the offense and they see a guy who doesn't really play within the offense, there's a domino effect.  That's what we don't need.  That's probably why he did not play game 1.   In the second half, all of our guys started to Settle for outside shots and they abandoned the offense somewhat.

I'm sure that Bud spent all of yesterday... preaching his offense and reminding them of how successful it can be.  Dennis has to take the lesson.

 

Nobody here doubts Dennis' talent.  Nobody here misses the strides he has made from last season to this one.  Nobody here misses the fact that he does put some pressure on Teague if you're looking from the outside.  However, the problem is that Dennis can't think that way and sometimes, I believe that he does.  His attitude... not his talent is what I have pointed to.  Namely, you don't have to make the showboat pass.  You don't have to score every time you see an opening.  Sometimes, it's better to pass up a good shot for a great shot. 

Now let's talk about Teague for a second.  When Teague first got here I nickednamed him Blink.. because he was as fast as a hiccup.  In fact, he can blow right passed most defenders most of the time.  Under Bud, he has learned that he doesn't have to be the Iso player that he tried to be earlier in his career.  In fact, it's better when he rewards his bigs.  It's better when he runs a good PNR.  Like Tony Parker, he's going to learn his spots and when to take over.  However, his command of the offense is much better than Dennis from the perspective that he's not trying to make it about him.  Will that always be?  Doubtful.  I suspect that Dennis will either learn his role or Bud will send him off.  The start in Atlanta is the offense.

Again. I've not seen Dennis play allot on D-Will(plz show me where he did - and failed). Also Teague had his troubles with Jack, and on that account the whole entire help-defense, seeing the buckets Jack made for the most part are now made by Beal.

 

I also again think you misunderstand what the Hawks have been doing all year with Dennis. Dennis plays like that fundamentally all year(for reasons). Its apparently only noticed by many people when its this time of the year and not going all to well.

 

Im only advocating that while many say Dennis played 50-75% bad, Im saying he played 25-30% bad, because of this that and the other thing.

 

It wasnt as dramatic as people made it out to be. As we can also see in this indeed new matchup against the Wizz(like I also said many times earlier), but also in the two last wins vs the Nets.

Edited May 6, 2015 by DS17Fanboy

[DS17Fanboy]

I'm saying, Kobe learned to play the triangle the way Phil wanted him to.  I agree that you change your philosophy for Greatness.  Pat Riley with Shaq for instance.  I also agree that Dennis is no Kobe.  But, I maintain that Bud will do what he can to make Dennis change before giving up on him totally.

I think you completely fail to understand what Bud wants from Dennis. I think Dennis is a clutch type of dude, but playoffs is a little bit as rookie season for him playing German basketball league, since the intensity is another step up from reg-season, and a pas that would be fly 90% of the times in regular season, gets intercepted allot more. And things like that...

 

Its fine to want to have a sort of schematic type of compter basketball going, but that doesnt always work that way. Its fine that an ATL teambasketball philsophy has some guys who can do lots of iso aboard. Also its fine to make a risky pass at times, to get people excited etc. If pure emotionless computer b-ball has never been there and wouldnt work.

 

The change in styles at times also works favorable for when you want the ball movement to get back in.

Edited May 6, 2015 by DS17Fanboy

[Diesel]

I think you completely fail to understand what Bud wants from Dennis. I think Dennis is a clutch type of dude, but playoffs is a little bit as rookie season for him playing German basketball league, since the intensity is another step up from reg-season, and a pas that would be fly 90% of the times in regular season, gets intercepted allot more. And things like that...

 

Its fine to want to have a sort of schematic type of compter basketball going, but that doesnt always work that way. Its fine that an ATL teambasketball philsophy has some guys who can do lots of iso aboard. Also its fine to make a risky pass at times, to get people excited etc. If pure emotionless computer b-ball has never been there and wouldnt work.

 

The change in styles at times also works favorable for when you want the ball movement to get back in.

 

I'm not knocking Dennis.  So you can take down your defense.  What I'm saying is that it's evident that he doesn't alway play within the offense.  I applaud him for last night's play.  When we needed scoring, he scored.  When we needed more aggressiveness, he was more aggressive...  But the thing he hasn't learned yet is something I just heard Barkley talking about with another player.....

 

A good-great player figures out that "Yes, I can get my shot all the time.. but there are many times, when I got to get other folks their shot.  If I can get the big man going it would be better than me scoring a lot."  Dennis hasn't figured that out yet.  And as I said in another post, our offense thrives on Horf being able to score in the midrange.  Our offensive burst last night didn't happen when Dennis was on the floor.  Dennis kept us in the game but in the fourth, it was the Patented Bud Offense that took over and put the game away.

Dennis is good and one day maybe great but he still has a lot to learn.. and I don't think Bud wants him to be primarily a Vinny Johnson off the bench guy.  Dennis has too much potential to be that.  Why do you think Bud gave Dennis all those starts in the regular season??

[CrazyEye]

I would say that Dennis isnt a teague clone, so if he would play exactly like him he wouldnt utilize his strenghts and would hurt the team. If Bud want to play teague he can mostly use the original, i doubt Dennis would play if he mess up most or a lot of possesions

[Diesel]

I would say that Dennis isnt a teague clone, so if he would play exactly like him he wouldnt utilize his strenghts and would hurt the team. If Bud want to play teague he can mostly use the original, i doubt Dennis would play if he mess up most or a lot of possesions

 

Look at the Hawks now look at San Antonio.

 

Teague is not exactly Tony Parker.. but he's more like Tony Parker than he was 3 years ago.

 

Korver is not Manny Ginobili or D. Green but he has a very similar skillset.

Horf is not Timmy D. but he has a top of the key midrange shot that's like when Duncan stretches the defense out.

 

We don't have exactly clones, but Bud uses skillsets to complete his mission.

 

So Dennis is not Teague nor is he Tony Parker, but fundamentally, he has the skillset that Bud likes.

 

I think Bud would turn down an opportunity to bring in Monte Ellis.  It's not a skillset that he really needs.  By the same token, I can see him not being sold on Rondo either.  However, I think he rates Teague above them both because of skillset.

[Guest]

Anybody heard about this? First I've heard....

Olivia Harlan ‏@Olivia_Harlan 9m9 minutes ago

Schröder said games 3&4 in BKN were tough on him because of family reasons, but he feels confident in his game now (15 mins, 9 pts, 4 A's)