I say we take Hill, Howard, #1 for JT, #35, #43...

[codyatl]

I never agree w/ diesal but I actuall do this time. If orlando would do that deal I would jump all over it. Right now. Who cares if we get blasted b those 2 contracts? I mean who in the hell is going to sign here? noone that matters. I would love to come out of this draft w/ howard and harris or smith. Can u imagine getting our stockton and malone out of the same draft? Even if we don't win right awa we give them 2 or 3 rs to develope and we then have tons of cap space when hill comes off books and b that time harris and howard would have developed and we are ready to go. I don't see how we could lose w/ this deal.

[Blunt91]

I was thinking what if their was a 3way or 4way trade on draft day.

Orlando recieves: Vince Carter & Alan Henderson

Atlanta recieves: Dwight Howard & Juwon Howard

L.A. Clippers recieve: Jason Terry & 17thpick in draft

Toronto recieve: 2#pick in draft, Grant Hill, and Atlanta's 2007pick from Philly

Okay it might seems like the Clippers get the best of this deal but they lose their lottery pick. The Hawks get to keep the 6th pick.

Atlanta's draft: Dwight Howard#1 and Devin Harris with#6pick

The Hawks only take on Juwon Howard's contract which is better than taking on both Howard and Hill's contract. I am not sure how long Juwon Howard's contract is but he can play for a few years here and we trade him a few years down the road to a team like the lakers who seem to always need a servicable powerforward to help win a championship. THe clippers get a pointguard in Jason Terry plus get to pick up another good player at the 17thpick. Vinsanity is reunited with his distant cousin T-Mac. Mcgrady may not have always gotten along with Carter when they were in Toronto but I am sure he now wishes he had Carter to lessen the scoring load on him. They get Hendu but he can come off the books after next season or if they like him they can sign him back. Toronto gets the #2pick in the draft. They need to rebuild a getting the #2pick is a good start.Plus they get a future first rounder top 3protected.

[Diesel]

Point: We must come out of this draft with Howard.

2nd, we have nothing else to deal to Orlando. I mean, we can try to send #6 and #17 to LAC for a Chance at Howard, but it would be pretty damn bad to get stiffed by the Magic.

So taking Hill is a consideration...

PLUS, we don't give up #6.

I would give either JT, #17

or JT# 35, 43.... But not #6 and not Philly's 2007 pick.

To come out of this draft with Howard and another top choice is a win for the future. If we take an 11.7 million dollar hit on the capspace... So what. We are not a win now team. No Good FAs want to come, we set up to build over the next 2 years... Then in 2007, we would have Capspace, 2 1st rounders, and a mature core starting with Howard/Harris or Howard/Gordon or Howard/Smith...

The plan is PERFECT.

[Blunt91]

THe 4way trade I posted helps out everyone and we don't have to take on 2contracts just one.

[Weez]

Much of the resistance you're encountering in these trades is the fact that many, myself included, just don't see howard becoming the next KG....or don't believe in him enough to risk what you offer. It's apparent that you fully believe this, for whatever reasons, but many don't, and therefore, aren't willing to sell the farm to get him.

[Traceman]

be? Doing Diesel's deal is betting that he is KG and not Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry or Kwame Brown. Those three guys STILL have a chance to be really good but none of them have shown me enough to warrant doing a deal like that for them. If Howard bombs or gets hurt, this deal would cripple the franchise for at least 3 more years. However, if he's a hit, you have a franchise player for the next 12-15 years. I just haven't seem Howard play enough to know if I would be willing to bet the farm on him. I'll have to defer to Billy Knight to make that decision.

As for the deal itself, it is more handicapping than Diesel realizes. He claims that we will still have $11+ million in caproom to spend but if I understand the proposed deal correctly (#1, Hill, Howard for JT, #35, #43) that simply is not the case. A breakdown of the numbers (for 04/05) is as follows:

Hill - $14.5 million

J. Howard - $5.5 million

Hendu - $8.25 million

CC - $3.25 million

Diaw - $1.0 million

That total is $32.5 million. Add $3.5 million for D. Howard's 1st year salary, $2.5 million for #6's first year salary and $1.5 million for #17's first year salary and you have spent $40 million. IF the cap goes up to $45 million (I read that it could actually go down a little), that leaves only $5 million in capspace. We'd be left with something like:

???/???

D. Howard/J. Howard/Hendu

Josh Smith(#6)/CC/Hill*

Diaw/Hansen

Telfair(#17)/Roko-Leni Ukic or Duhon (#35)/???

* - I seriously doubt Hill will be able to play.

That COULD turn out to be a really good, exciting team in 3-4 years but even if Hill came back, they would be TERRIBLE next year. Would you rather have that or this:

Okur/Ha Seung-Jin (or David Harrison if he drops - #35)

Swift/Hendu

Josh Smith (#6)/Diaw/CC

Jax( or Ginobili, J. Crawford or Q. Rich)/Kevin Martin(#38)

JT/Telfair(#17)*/Duhon (#43)

* - I could also see taking Robert Swift, Al Jefferson or Kris Humphries at #17.

I guess it just depends on how good you think Dwight Howard will be. At any rate, I'd rather trade #6 and #17 or #6 and JT to get Howard rather than take on Hill's and Howard's contracts. That way, even if Howard bombs, we will still have enough caproom to pay some FAs.

Fianlly, although I like all 3 to some degree, I just don't think I'd want to risk the franchise's future on 3 highschool guys like Howard, Smith and Telfair.

[Diesel]

On that basis, Howard looks closer to KG than he does to Kwame or Chandler.

First off, HSer have a better reputation overall than college based on percentages. Still, many people did not believe that Tyson or Curry was the truth.

I think Kwame and Tyson can still come out as very good players. However, Howard will be better than the both of them.

But you're right. It's got to be worth the gamble... But just think. Howard is the only player beside Lebron that nobody has ever questioned should he go to college. Read up on him... Nobody is saying he needs 1 or 2 years of college are they? They are saying: if there is any HSer that is ready to be a pro, it's Howard. That's a ringing endorsement. Nobody is doubting that he's one of the top 2 players in this draft.

You can't say that about Kobe, KG, Oneal, Harrington, or Tmac. All those guys had question marks about their space in the draft. They all turned out. No one has questioned Howard's space and I don't think no one will.

[Diesel]

Free Agents are not slaves who must go once their price is met. They have a choice. Believe me, the market will wait us out... They will look at the Hawks in the midst of a major rebuild with questionable structure and no coach and say.....

Hmm... Do I want to waste my time being a part of a rebuilding project that will take 3-4 years or do I want to go with another team....

No way Kmart leaves NJ for anything less than 82 million over 6 and if he does... We are fools for paying that much.

I keep hearing about how much of a hit we take in flexibility... However which fairtale Free agents are we going to get?? Nobody has stated anything that sounds like a plan.

Yes... We can easily pay Jax 8 million per.

We can easily sign up Sura for 3 and 10 million.

and we can easily sign up Kmart for 6 and 82.

But will that team win anything?

JT/Sura/Jax/Kmart/C

That team looks like Mediocre city to me...

To make it more interesting let's say we draft Harris...

Harris/JT/Jax/Kmart/C

More Mediocrity and you talk about being hamstrung in FAcy...

Now, let's look at one possibility:

Arroyo/Snyder(17)/Josh Smith (6)/Howard (1)/Pryz.

Guess what you got there...

4 guys who could have an awesome future... Think 3 years down the road. The moves we made this year are paying off in a major way. One of them will be a superstar.

In the offseason we get 10 million more dumped into the FAcy pot... But we can hold on to that and build some more through the draft. If we suck this year so what... We get a shot at Ogden...

However, share with me the Fairytale free agent plan?

[Wretch]

First, I wouldn't include J.Howard's contract in this deal too. That would be too much salary to take back. So we would have that extra 5.5 million, plus the MCE. Secondly, we'd have these two prospects at PF and SG/PG. There really isn't a pressing need to go after anyone, but we'd still have a some flexibility to do so this off season. Maybe we can't go after a max guy, but who is worth the max this offseason that we are realistically able to lure? And anything else is comparable potential to what we could pick up with the #1 and #6.

Hendu and Crawford give us 10+ million in relief the following year, and if we don't waste money on nickle and dime FA's this year...then we could likely offer a max deal to someone then. Again, if they are willing to play for us... Regardless, it'll take at least 2 - 3 years before we are ready to compete. By then, Hill's contract will have either been picked up by insurance or expired.

The only real risk here is whether or not the #1 and #6 can turn out to be special. I don't have that kind of scouting ability, but I'll tell you right now, if this were 1998...with the 1 and 6 you could get any two of these guys:

1. LA Clippers - Michael Olowokandi Pacific

2. Vancouver - Mike Bibby Arizona

3. Denver - Raef LaFrentz Kansas

4. Toronto - Antawn Jamison North Carolina

5. Golden State - Vince Carter North Carolina

6. Dallas - Robert Traylor Michigan

7. Sacramento - Jason Williams Florida

8. Philadelphia - Larry Hughes Saint Louis

9. Milwaukee - Dirk Nowitzki DJK Wurzburg (Germany)

10. Boston - Paul Pierce Kansas

If I'm Billy Knight and I see this kind of potential out there, I go for it. I wouldn't turn away from that kind of chance simply because it eats up cap space; and in fact, teams have inquired about us taking contracts off their hands:

Quote:

---

Knight said he has spoken with every team in the league about a possible deal since the draft lottery.

He isn't just looking to move up

; teams have contacted the Hawks hoping they can dump salary.

"Remember, we have cap space, too," Knight said, smiling

---

If Knight pulls a ballsy move like this, I will not complain. It means he has found the future of our franchise. And that is worth taking on a max contract. I'm not worried about next season, I'm looking at 3 or 4 years down the road. Hill would not be a factor then.

[DominiqueWilkins]

Just because I disagree with your trade doesn't mean you have to act childish. I only posted my reaction to it, and sorry but majority of the people disliked your offer.

I am far from 12 or even 13 years of age.

I know alot about basketball from playing it and watching it. I also am only hear to express my views on the Hawks as you are, and I respect your post as I wish you would respect mine. I even added I went a bit far on my reaction to your offer, but explain how that is wrong for posting it? Atleast I said I was honest, but I wont sink to your level, and knock you.

Quote:

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You say that Orlando fans would reach into the internet and slap....

Ok... You must be about 12 - 13.

N E Way, let me school you right quick on why this is great for the Magic.

It gives them enough cap room to go after EVEN KOBE....

Would the Magic fans be mad if they had JT, Kobe, and Foyle instead of Okafor?

What about JT, Damp, and KMart instead of Okafor.

Don't get it twisted YOUNG dominique... Orlando is a place where FAs want to go... No. 1, there is NO TAXES.... Every Free agent who is making money wants that. No. 2, They get to play with Tmac...

Oh By the way... TMac...

Read this

Here's another article from Orgeonian Live (probably associated press)...

Quote:

---

Magic looks at Howard: Dwight Howard wants Tracy McGrady to give him a chance.

McGrady wants the Magic to trade the No. 1 pick in this month's draft for a veteran player who can help the team contend for a playoff spot.

McGrady has said he doesn't think Howard or Connecticut's Emeka Okafor can provide that kind of immediate help.

But Howard, the 6-11 prep star, reportedly has been impressive in individual workouts. He wants to show McGrady that if the Magic selects him, he can have an Amare Stoudemire-like impact.

"I'm a young 'KG' (Kevin Garnett) and Tim Duncan mixed together," Howard told the Orlando Sentinel.

Magic general manager John Weisbrod said teams have contacted him about trading for the top pick, and they are interested in Howard, not Okafor.

---

Young Dominique... We are the only team in position that can take away Orlando's debt (Howard/Hill) and give them a Shot at Kobe, Kmart, Damp... The only one.

---

[DominiqueWilkins]

Quote:

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Do you know what Rasheed Wallace said about Atlanta?

There's no way in Hell I would resign with them... That's why he was traded!

Think about it...

---

That is why Rasheed Wallace was traded?

Sorry, but that statement isn't correct, because we were going to trade Rasheed Wallace anyways. Please post a post next time or if you have the post/quote Rasheed said please post it.

[Traceman]

we are so far below the cap. The following was taken from Larry Coon's FAQs on the salary cap:

"18. How do exceptions count against the cap? Does being under the cap always mean that a team has room to sign free agents? Do teams ever lose their exceptions?

If a team has Disabled Player, $1 Million, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player Exceptions, and they are below the cap, then these exceptions are added to the team's team salary, and the league treats the team as though they are over the cap. This is to prevent a loophole. The concept is the same as the one behind free agent amounts (see question numbers 27 , 28 , 29 , 30 ). The idea is that the order in which exceptions are used should not matter. Free agent amounts keep teams from taking advantage of temporarily being under the cap by signing other teams' free agents using their cap room, and then re-signing their own free agents using a Bird exception. Because of free agent amounts, there's no difference between signing their free agents first and other teams' free agents second, or the other way around, signing other teams' free agents first and their own free agents second. Similarly, a team can't act like they're under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, $1 Million, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions. Consequently, the exceptions are added to the team salary (putting the team over the cap) if the team is under the cap and adding the exceptions puts them over the cap. If a team is already over the cap, then the exceptions are not added to their team salary. There would be no point in doing this, since there is no cap room for signing free agents.

So it is not true that being under the cap necessarily means a team has room to sign free agents. For example, assume the cap is $42.5 million, and a team has $36 million committed to salaries. They also have a mid-level exception for $4.5 million and a traded player exception for $5 million. Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $45.5 million, or $3 million over the cap. So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and must instead use an exception.

Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room. So in the example above, if the team renounced their traded player and mid-level exceptions, then the $9.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $36 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).

A team may lose their exceptions (Disabled Player, $1 Million, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player), or never receive them to begin with. This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap. If the team salary is below this level when the exception arises, then teams don't get the exception. If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they still have are lost.

For example, with a $42.5 million salary cap, assume it's the offseason, and a team has $34 million committed to salaries, along with a mid-level exception for $4.5 million, a traded player exception for $3 million, and an unrenounced free agent whose free agent amount is $2 million. Their salaries and exceptions total $43.5 million, or $1 million over the cap. What if their free agent signs with another team? Their salaries drop to $34 million, so their salaries and exceptions now total $41.5 million. This total is below the cap so the team loses their mid-level and traded player exceptions.

There is logic behind this. The whole idea behind an "exception" is that it is an exception to the rule which says a team has to be below the salary cap. In other words, an exception is a mechanism which allows a team to function above the cap. However, if a team salary is ever so low that they're not going to be over the cap even if they use all their exceptions, then the concept of an exception which allows them to function above the cap is moot. Therefore, if a team's team salary ever drops this far, its exceptions go away."

The way I read that, we don't get an MCE this year. Still, if we didn't take back Howard's salary as well as Hill's, the deal would look a LOT better to me as we would still have around $10 million or so to use on one or two FAs. Could $10 million get us Okur and Troy Hudson or Crawford and Swift?

There is a HUGE difference in taking on Howard's deal in Diesel's proposal versus not taking it on. I am not opposed to taking on SOME salary to get additional picks or to move up, I'm just opposed to taking on so much salary that it cripples our ability to get better.

I agree that it really boils down to how much you think of the players in the draft. Is this draft similar to the '98 draft that you mentioned or is it closer to the '00 draft:

1. Kenyon Martin

2. Stromile Swift

3. Darius Miles

4. Marcus Fizer

5. Mike Miller

6. DerMarr Johnson

7. Chris Mihm

8. Jamaal Crawford

9. Joel Pryzbilla

10. Keyon Dooling

The talent level in '00 was significantly less than it was in '98. If you think this class is better, I could see taking on SOME salary to get the #1 pick but not $20 million in salary.

[Wretch]

I've read this before:

Quote:

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Similarly, a team can't act like they're under the cap and sign free agents using cap room, and then use their Disabled Player, $1 Million, Mid-Level and/or Traded Player exceptions.

---

Are they saying that you can't use an exception to exceed the salary cap? Then what is the point of an exception? Because here they say:

Quote:

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For example, assume the cap is $42.5 million, and a team has $36 million committed to salaries. They also have a mid-level exception for $4.5 million and a traded player exception for $5 million. Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $45.5 million, or $3 million over the cap. So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and must instead use an exception.

---

Exceptions are added to the existing salary putting the team over the cap, and there is no cap room available to sign a FA - so they must use an exception.

Quote:

---

If a team is already over the cap, then the exceptions are not added to their team salary. There would be no point in doing this, since there is no cap room for signing free agents.

---

When they were discussing adding (and increasing the amounts of) exceptions to the CBA, what I got from it was that they wanted teams - who were capped out - to have the flexibility to add talent to their team. Like GP and Malone to the capped out Lakers.

If we absorb Hill's contract, in the example above, we're 5 million under the cap. It's either use that or the 4.5 MLE. Either way, we are right at the salary cap. So what if we sign a free agent using our cap space. and we are right at the salary cap. The exception allows you to work beyond the cap, that is the purpose, so why couldn't we then offer an MLE to someone?

Makes no sense, because on one hand they are saying that you can't use the exceptions to exceed the cap, on the other hand, they are saying that the exception allows you to work beyond the cap... What is to stop a team from using it's available cap space, to get capped out, then use an exception?

Either way, what I'm looking at is adding two top of the NBA draft prospects to our roster. IF they are expected to pan out as the future of the franchise, then they are worth taking a max contract for.

I'm not sure what this draft class more closely represents. Nobody knows what it will actually look like until YEARS later. Last year was supposed to be a 3 horse race - with only one guy that was ready to help a team immediately; and LeBron wasn't supposed to be THAT good. Uh...I think it's safe to say now that there were more NBA ready guys than that.

People say the same thing EVERY year when there are no sure things like Yao, Shaq, or LeBron. So you can't really go by that. It has to be evaluated team by team by the player(s) that they want to bring in.

The NBA draft is different from every other major sport because YOU KNOW where the stars are coming from. 1 through 13...and there ain't no way around it. People make bad picks, some people have a better eye for talent, but in the end...Kobes, McGradys, Melos, Kidds, Jordans, Barkley's VERY VERY RARELY slip past 13. It just doesn't happen. Some years there are 2 or 3 in there, some years there are 6 or 7...

But that is where the leagues premier talent is and if you see something you like and you can reach into that cookie jar twice...you gotta go for it. I don't know enough about any of these guys to say that either is worth taking Hill for...but I would for a combination Howard and one of about 5 other guys in this draft.

I believe this will be a draft closer to 98. Not in the overall depth of talent per se, but in the way that good talent is spread out.