Less Skills than Boris...

[Playmaker0017]

So, basically what I'm hearing from you is that if you aren't a potent scorer - you are a complete waste of a roster space?

That's why teams like the Spurs, Suns, Pistons succeed and teams like the Hawks are the doormat.

You think that scoring is the be-all-end-all to the game.

Boris was a great defender. A good ball-handler and a good passer. Unfortunately, for the most part, the players were never paying enough attention to be in the correct spots when Boris was looking for the pass.

Is he an all-star? No. Is he the next Jason Kidd? No. He never had the opportunity to succeed in Atlanta. Period.

The Suns brass obviously see something that your bias as fans won't allow you to see. They see a guy that is versatile and isn't going to need the ball in his hands to contribute.

On a team that's on the verge ... you can't find enough of those types of players.

[chillzatl]

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That's the most ignorant statement I've ever heard someone make.

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amazingly it took you all of 5 setences to take the honor all by yourself.

It's one thing to be "out of place" in certain systems. It's another to look completely lost and unfamiliar with the game you are playing.

You might have looked better on a short pass offense. But would you look completely clueless on the run offense? NO. At least, you shouldn't. If you did, then you really didn't belong in the first place.

Why don't you fly out to phoenix and throw a pity party for Boris. I'm sure he would appreciate that.

[AHF]

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So, basically what I'm hearing from you is that if you aren't a potent scorer - you are a complete waste of a roster space?

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I think you are hearing what you want to hear if that is what you got from my post. I already said I think that Diaw can still be a valuable reserve in the league.

More fundamentally, I never said he needed to be a potent scorer. I said that he didn't do the minimum amount of scoring which is to capitalize on open opportunities. Rick Pitino used to pull players who passed on open shots because it hurts the team's offense and spacing more if teams know they don't have to guard you.

Even a terrible shooter like Jason Kidd knows you need to score some points so that teams will respect your offensive game and not sag to cutoff penetration (and thereby limit your passing ability) and double down on other players after your pass.

[Playmaker0017]

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I'm not bashing Diaw here, I still think he can be a quality reserve in the NBA. I do think that he needs to turn the corner mentally regarding his offense, though.

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I agree.

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Do you disagree with the observation that Diaw passed up both totally uncontested jumpers and open layups?

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I think he did pass up shots.

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I think the Suns will ask Diaw to do the same thing - at a minimum take the open shots. If you don't do that, you disrupt all the offensive spacing on the floor - especially when you are playing a guard position because it allows defenders to sag off you with impunity.

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I think the difference is that the Suns will have a real coach that can explain the flow of offense better than anyone Atlanta has had in the past 5 years. I think the difference is that the Suns will have a great mentor for Boris to learn from, rather than a bunch of high school standouts.

Again, I think it comes down to system. I think it comes down to a coach being able to teach Boris how to feel confident and comfortable. For whatever reason, the Atlanta staff was never able to do that.

Part of the blame is Boris, no doubt ... but a lot of the blame is piss-poor coaching as well.

Look at JT. JT was a headache and a constant thorn in Atlanta's side when he was here. When he left, he came into his own under a good system and a good coach. He played in control and really contributed.

[Playmaker0017]

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amazingly it took you all of 5 setences to take the honor all by yourself.

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You should know better than to try to paly word wars with me Chillz. ;P

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It's one thing to be "out of place" in certain systems. It's another to look completely lost and unfamiliar with the game you are playing.

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No, it isn't.

I'll explain below.

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You might have looked better on a short pass offense. But would you look completely clueless on the run offense? NO. At least, you shouldn't. If you did, then you really didn't belong in the first place.

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The analogy still holds up. If you've ever played the game of football, some schemes are completely on another level than others. The reads you have to make, the reactions you have to have.

The same goes in basketball. If you are used to structure and used to players playing like a team, then when you play the game and everyone is running around like a bunch of morons in a gym league ... then yes, you might get a little lost (and probably stay there).

Because the difference is that the opposition isn't playing gym league ... they are full-pro NBA level players. They'll defend the stupid "rec ball" offense and negate any structure you could possibly bring.

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Why don't you fly out to phoenix and throw a pity party for Boris. I'm sure he would appreciate that.

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I'm sure he would.

It's about class. It's about couth.

This is a guy that never once complained, never once bad mouthed his teammates, his role or the city.

[swolehawk2]

All that is well and good...I even think Boris will be a very solid role player eventually...but when you have the ball in your hands you have to be Decisive and Assertive ....or you will struggle. If Boris' problems occured while he was being aggressive I don't think you would see many complaints....but indecisive and passive mistakes get you eaten alive is this league.

I hope he learns that he belongs, and develops some confidence.

[thesheedera]

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JT was a headache and a constant thorn in Atlanta's side when he was here.

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I strongly disagree with this statement. He couldn't handle 100% of the load as a Hawk, but he certainly tried. JT played above and beyond what was expected of him. His late game mishaps had more to do with the team around him than the player himself.

One of my favorite Hawks of all time, and without a doubt my favorite since Nique. He loved being a Hawk for a majority of his time here, and if he didn't, you'd never know it the way he carried himself and represented the team.

[Playmaker0017]

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I strongly disagree with this statement. He couldn't handle 100% of the load as a Hawk, but he certainly tried. JT played above and beyond what was expected of him. His late game mishaps had more to do with the team around him than the player himself.

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Disagree all you want, but if you do a little search on this board you'll see that the guy getting the blame was JT.

The call was that once JT goes ... this team can get a real PG. JT can never run the point in the NBA. He dribbles out the clock. He is indecisive and doesn't penetrate.

And for the most part - it was true.

The thing was, it wasn't for lack of skill, talent or anything else. It was lack of coaching and lack of system.

If you ever want to find out why JT and Reef sucked ... it had more to do with lack of system and identity then anything else.

Put JT on a team that had direction, had a purpose and told him what they wanted ... and he came through in spades.

Put him on Atlanta with "Lionel Stotts" and he becomes a stat player.

[Playmaker0017]

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All that is well and good...I even think Boris will be a very solid role player eventually...but when you have the ball in your hands you have to be Decisive and Assertive ....or you will struggle.

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I COMPLETELY agree.

But does that mean that the fans should run around and insult him and act childish about it? No, I don't think so.

The question you have to ask yourselves as a team is:

Why couldn't the coaching staff motivate him? Why couldn't they give him the confidence he needed?

Why was it that when Reef left, Boris regressed rather than progressed? I'll tell you why ... Reef acted like a mentor to Boris. So did JT. After those two split, Boris had the subpar coaching regime and a bunch of high school kids. (oh yeah and Antoine "it's all me" Walker)

I think you give him a good coach, a good system ... he's going to be a different player.

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If Boris' problems occured while he was being aggressive I don't think you would see many complaints....but indecisive and passive mistakes get you eaten alive is this league.

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That's a fair statement. It isn't insulting, attacking or rude. It's a statement, not an attack.

[AHF]

I'm sure that it is a coincidence that the team with the system also already had outstanding players in Dirk Nowitzski, Eric Dampier, Josh Howard, Michael Finley, Marquis Daniels, etc.?

It was not about systems and coaching in Dallas. It was about the size of the load JT was asked to carry. In Atlanta, JT was asked to be a building block for the team and couldn't carry that load. In Dallas, JT was asked to handle the ball a little (not really given playmaking responsibilities) and to mostly hit open shots. JT was part of a winning team in Dallas because he played a very limited role and played with enough talent that they would have made the playoffs without him.

In Atlanta, JT's liabilities as a foundational player who you could build around were too big to overcome which is why people said to unload him. It wasn't about system or coaching - it was about responsibilities and what the team needed from him.

Hopefully, Diaw will similarly benefit from reduced responsibilities in Phoenix. There is no doubt he will play on a team that wins more games next year than this year but I doubt seriously it will be because of inept coaching and systems in Atlanta. It will be because they have the reigning MVP (Nash), the best young big man in the game (Amare) and an outstanding wing/forward (Matrix).

[drzachary]

The Intern over at ESPN.com has it right:

"It's not official yet, but I'm so giddy over the announced Joe Johnson sign and trade that I can't help myself. Apparently the Hawks are getting Johnson in return for Boris Diaw and two lottery-protected draft picks. And the best part is that Phoenix apparently WANTS Diaw. As I kept saying yesterday, I feel like I'm about to get punk'd. Here are my Top 3 memories from the Boris Diaw Experience:

3. After being passed the ball, Boris screams and hands it to the guy guarding him.

2. After being passed the ball, Boris screams and chucks it into the stands.

1. That sweet dunk Boris had that one time in warm-ups.

That was a little harsh but I can't help myself, as I'm well past the point of return now. If this deal somehow falls through, I don't see any way that I can recover."

[thesheedera]

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but if you do a little search on this board you'll see that the guy getting the blame was JT

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Well that's unfortunate, but not at all unepected from a message board.

[thesheedera]

dr z - link?

[drzachary]

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dr z - link?

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http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...ns/links/050801

I pasted the full Hawks blurb. I guess the Intern is the ESPN.com sole "Hawks guy."

[chillzatl]

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You should know better than to try to paly word wars with me Chillz. ;P

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should I? My internet warring skills are unmatched. I've been honing them on the BBS's, IRC and the internet for 15 years now. I've met few who can best me!

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The analogy still holds up. If you've ever played the game of football, some schemes are completely on another level than others. The reads you have to make, the reactions you have to have.

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But you still know how to play the game. You know how to block. You know how to catch a pass. You know how to run the ball in for a touchdown. The system doesn't change your basic knowledge of the game and how it's played. You aren't going to go from being a 20ppg player in one system and being completely and totally ineffective in another.

That was the problem with Diaw. He simply does not have the innate basketball skills to just play and have an impact. He was given the opportunity time and again and could not grasp what was asked of him. That shows far more in the way of deficiencies than simply "not fitting the system". Shareef didn't fit our system, but he still got his 18/8!

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This is a guy that never once complained, never once bad mouthed his teammates, his role or the city.

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He did actually. After woodson repeatedly asked him to shoot the ball more. He complained to the media about his role and the coach not knowing how to use his skills. He felt that being asked to take wide open shots was trying to force him to not be a complete player. He then went on to wonder if perhaps going back to france to play in the pansey leagues might not be a better option for him.

That was the point that Diaw became trade bait in my mind.

[drzachary]

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should I? My internet warring skills are unmatched. I've been honing them on the BBS's, IRC and the internet for 15 years now. I've met few who can best me!

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What BBSes did you call? Just curious...

[chillzatl]

oh man... god that was literally 15 years ago. pretty much any major board around atlanta and several outside of Ga (long distance calls got me in trouble more than once). Kudzu used to run a few bbs's around town also. He might remember them better than I.

Also used to call AGN (atlanta gaming netowrk) and destroy people in Doom on a nightly basis.

[thesheedera]

Thanks.

[drzachary]

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oh man... god that was literally 15 years ago. pretty much any major board around atlanta and several outside of Ga (long distance calls got me in trouble more than once). Kudzu used to run a few bbs's around town also. He might remember them better than I.

Also used to call AGN (atlanta gaming netowrk) and destroy people in Doom on a nightly basis.

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Cool.. I ran a few BBSes back in the day, WWIV mostly, later Renegade. I was on the Art of War, OASIS, and a bunch of the other big ones. Fun times

[Playmaker0017]

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should I? My internet warring skills are unmatched. I've been honing them on the BBS's, IRC and the internet for 15 years now. I've met few who can best me!

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Baby, my style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable, and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat his children. Praise be to Allah!

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But you still know how to play the game. You know how to block. You know how to catch a pass. You know how to run the ball in for a touchdown.

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True, but the difference is still there.

I will not be effective, and was not effective, as a blocking tight end. But, I was the best receiving tight end on the squad.

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The system doesn't change your basic knowledge of the game and how it's played. You aren't going to go from being a 20ppg player in one system and being completely and totally ineffective in another.

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True, but Boris was never a 20 PPG guy. He was never drafted for his scoring, it was for his defense and his passing skills.

He still had those in Atlanta.

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That was the problem with Diaw. He simply does not have the innate basketball skills to just play and have an impact.

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I disagree. His impact is different than most guys. He isn't going to make an impact by scoring, but with the right mix ... he makes the difference with sweet passing. The problem is he didn't have players to pass to.

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Shareef didn't fit our system, but he still got his 18/8!

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Well, 20.5/9, but who's counting, right?

The problem with the comparison is that Reef is extremely talented. It would be like comparing Reef to Jordan. There just isn't a comparison. (Reef is far superior ... heheh)

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He did actually. After woodson repeatedly asked him to shoot the ball more. He complained to the media about his role and the coach not knowing how to use his skills. He felt that being asked to take wide open shots was trying to force him to not be a complete player. He then went on to wonder if perhaps going back to france to play in the pansey leagues might not be a better option for him.

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I don't remember that, but I doubt it was complaining so much as stating an obvious fact.