Hawks Lose 1st or 2nd Round.

[BlackHawkDown]

You took the word out of my mouth. Speaking of Karl, that joker turned a young sqaud of current and future all stars and turned them into a bunch of sissyballing scrubs, losing to ARGENTINA. Yet that fraud who makes racist comments, takes the best team in the East and doesn't make the playoffs and disgraces US basketball forever is a better coach than Zeke, who took the final spot from him. HA,

[BlackHawkDown]

This is my point on Thomas.

If it Peja, Tony Parker and Dirk Diggler were not so successful do you think the league would be breaking its neck to get every European and International player. Doubt it. The league just goes with the hot trend, save Jerry West and Eldgin Baylor. It is sad but every black coaches Job becomes a forum on Black coaches, which I think is disgusting. I.E. Tyrone Willingham, if he doesn't win at Notre Dame watch and see the next time a black coach gets a good Job. I think it is stupid but, I have a secret agenda in rooting against us versus the pacers, because if it is a forum on Lon's Job, I want that Idiot out of here. And I think you can agree with that.

[Guest]

Of course I don't have confidence that Lon

can get us to the playoffs.This is part of

the point.Lon had a by far inferior roster

to Indiana and only won a handful of games

less AND Lon probably had a better second

half win/loss record than Thomas had.If that

was the case that is inexcuseable!I mean our

3rd best player was Toni Kukoc and even he

missed so many games.We had alot of youth

aswell...

Terry-24

Shareef-25

Hanno-25

Dermarr-21

Nazr-24

And we were farless talented than Indiana and

yet we still managed to take a important game

from them and only lost a handful of games more.

And if you look at our roster....

DJ/Hanno/Cal/Strickland/Smith/Slater.That's right!

HALF the people that suited up for us the second

half of last season probably will not be playing in

the NBA this season.Yet we still almost won as

many games as the Pacers did.

As far as Karl goes.....I agree he is overrated.He

coached a team too the finals because he had

Payton and Kemp who you could argue was the

best PF back in the day.I think he will end up

losing his job.

But it's not all his fault the USA team lost.IF they

would learn how to play skilled basketball instead

of thinking it's all a trackmeet they would have won.

Karl didn't teach them to only care about dunks and

abandon the jumpshots.It's a case that Trackmeet

stars got whiped by BASKETBALL PLAYERS.Not time

maybe the players will go to play basketball instead

of what I like to call JUNKBALL.

"which I think is disgusting. I.E. Tyrone Willingham,

if he doesn't win at Notre Dame watch and see the

next time a black coach gets a good Job."

That's football.Football does have a problem hiring

head coaches and have treated them poorly like

Tony Dungy and whats the coaches name that

was the coach of Minnesota Vikings.The NBA is

expanding in ways that haven't reached the NFL

YET.Something like 43% of the NBA headcoaches

are black and that is increasing.

Like I said,guys like Doc Rivers and Nate McMillen

are good coaches and it's easy to see.It's also

easy to see that coaches like Thomas are not

good coaches and Don Cheney is questionable

(from what i have heard from NY fans)but blk

coaches don't need to look up to Thomas.If they

are quailifed for the position they will get it

because they deserve it.

But I agree that football still has a problem with

black head coaches.Like Edwards the coach of the

Jets he is a really good coach....However he doesn't

really have that great of a team.

But that is football and not basketball.

[Traceman]

moves on before we'll see if Croshere is a bum or not. I never professed that he was the next coming of Larry Bird or Charles Barkley, I just said he looked like he was an up and coming player who looked like he was going to be a part of the Pacers' future. Apparently, they thought so too which is why they signed him to that big contract. As far as Croshere being dominant in Europe goes, that is actually a compliment seeing that several European teams kicked our a** in the World Championships!

The only things that Croshere and Hendu have in common is that they are both undersized PFs who signed big contracts after a good season in a contract year. Their skills sets are almost entirely different.

[Guest Walter]

Zeke the 3rd best NBA coach? He's the 1st on the hot seat and the league's worst according to its fans! Even Eric Musselman beat him! Must be because of (non-)votes by Indy fans leading to addition by subraction of Thomas from the Indy team.

http://espn.go.com/nba/top25/coaches/results.html

And no I don't think such a vote is definitive, so let's dig deeper.

Isaiah Thomas is the league's most overated coach even rated as low as 23rd according to Frank Hughes!

In reply to:

---

"MOST OVERRATED COACH: Isiah Thomas. Even ranked 23rd, Thomas might be given too much respect. Word out of Indy is he does not work hard, he does not communicate with his players and he does not seem to care a great deal about much other than the substantial paycheck he is cashing. He better take this group of young talent somewhere this season or he is gonzo."

---

http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/may_peter/1433811.html

Also read the realGM Indy team writer's understated comments on Thomas entitled "I Feel Isaiah Thomas Has Failed Us". Read the end as well. BTW, Sundov signed with the Celts.

http://www.realgm.com/src_indiana_column.php

Then read this...

In reply to:

---

"Isiah Thomas, Indiana Pacers

For the last two seasons, all we've heard is how young the Pacers are. That's true. They are young. So is the league. But they were a year older than they were the year before and we still heard how young they were. At some point, you need results, and the guess here is that Pacers management isn't going to sit idly by and watch this group of talented kids again slog through to another break-even season. There's really no excuse for it; they're better than that. There probably aren't a handful of teams who wouldn't swap rosters with Donnie Walsh, but, to date, the returns are unconvincing. Two eighth-place finishes. Two first-round exits. Forever .500, whether it was with or without Jalen Rose, or with or without Al Harrington. And, let's not forget, they still have the 37-year-old Indiana Icon himself, Reggie Miller. "I want them to understand that Uncle Reggie isn't going to be around forever," Miller said of his teammates. "I want to win and I want to win now. There are a lot of sacrifices that go into winning. I want them to understand that." If they don't, Thomas might be the one who pays the price."

---

Isaiah Thomas was ranked the 23rd "best NBA coach, 1 position head of Lon Kruger. You think name recognition had anything to do with even that "high" a rating?

http://espn.go.com/nba/s/2002/0919/1433805.html

And this from the careful Jack Ramsey...

http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/ramsay_drjack/1420698.html

In reply to:

---

"Isiah Thomas is in his third year of NBA coaching. He should understand that coaching at that level requires a firm and full commitment to the job. There are no shortcuts to success. He has an excellent assistant in Brendan Malone. Together, they must get the Pacers on the right track...The Central Division is wide open. The Pistons showed last season what could be accomplished by tough-minded determination and a willingness for all players to accept their assigned roles. The Pacers have that same opportunity. Once his roster is set, Thomas needs to decide on a starting lineup and a consistent rotation of players off the bench. Then, he must stick with them until they prove they can't do the job."

---

The NBA's 3rd best coach can thank the forums best and only racist for his ridiculous ranking.

W

[BlackHawkDown]

Again so cliche, BHD is racist.

your reason for saying Thomas is a bad coach is because some fan site says he is. HA. What does a bunch of beer chunging idiots know. Like Hawksquawk you have some really sharp intelligent people posting, voting, some idiots who have never played a sport in or even beyond High School and even little kids. So if you think the fact that some website says Zeke is bad proves your point your mistaken my friend.

A philospher once said that it is pointless to argue because you only entrench your opponent in his/her own view. So on this subject less end our diatribe, Walter the truth is I can understand why you feel the way you do I just dont agree.

I'm sure you can put your fine education to some other use.

Besides " The truth takes time not words" - Cynthia McKinney

[Diesel]

So now you go on the word of Fanpolls and beat writers? Results have nothing to do with it?

For instance. ON YOUR FAN POLL...

George Karl is ranked #11 amoung coaches?

Yet he took:

Cassell, Allen, Big Dog, Mason, Thomas, and Johnson and he missed the playoffs. Your article you quoted suggests that a lot of coaches would trade places with Isiah... However, what coach wouldn't want to trade places with Karl? Karl had 6 possible allstars and couldn't produce [censored]. I think Isiah is a lot of Sportswriters diversion because many of them picked a Laker Bucks finals last yr.

But let's look at Isiah's Season again. He losses Harrington midseason. They trade Jalen Rose for good players but no allstar players. So in other words, Rose for depth. And he still manages to take his team to a 42-40 record and a 7th seed in the playoffs. That's not bad coaching.

There are many Lenny Critics on the fan boards and in the press. However, this past yr, Lenny made all of his critics kiss his a**. When you take Vince Carter away from the Raptors, you got a team full of role players. Yet that team came together and won many games. Then went to the playoffs and almost beat NJ out of the first round. 5 games. But the critics never give Lenny Credit.

Call it what you want, but had Lon Kruger pulled off that kind of feat without SAR, he would have probably won Coach of the yr.

[Guest]

Agreed about the fan poll thing.I think you

are right about that one Diesel.

"So in other words, Rose for depth. And he

still manages to take his team to a 42-40

record and a 7th seed in the playoffs."

Yes it is bad coaching...This is the WEAK

eastern conference.That team should have

won atleast 46 games.

"Then went to the playoffs and almost beat

NJ out of the first round. 5 games. But the

critics never give Lenny Credit."

I think you mean Detroit.

"Call it what you want, but had Lon Kruger

pulled off that kind of feat without SAR, he

would have probably won Coach of the yr."

We have:

Jason Terry

Dermarr Johnson

Ira Newble

Alan Henderson

Nazr Mohammad

4 out of those 5 guys are bench players and

only JT would average double figures.

Antonio Davis/Morris Peterson/Alvin Williams

all averaged double figures for Toronto. Us

without Shareef and them without Vince Carter

they are still the superior team.

Thomas blows as a head coach.You can watch

him and tell he would rather be somewhere

else.Knowing that Thomas was the player that

he was it sucks to see these things.He would

have coached our team to maybe 20 wins.Terry

would have been treated in the same manner

as Thomas was treating Rose..

When I look at Thomas as the Pacers head

coach I don't see the same guy that played

for Detroit.Something happened to him.

[beav]

"As far as Zeke goes.... Who knows where to rank him?? How could you. The championship team that Bird had IS ALL GONE. Only Reggie, Croshere remains. Zeke has taken a team filled with Young talent and has won with it? Yet he gets pissed on in the press and in this forum. My question is why? Hasn't he done more with his young talent than Gentry has done with his? Hasn't he done more with his young talent than Karl has done making 7 million per yr?"

I'll take a stab at ranking him and I'll do it low...the championship team was not *all gone* besides reggie and croshere first of all, when thomas took over... so derrick mckey and sam perkins were tossed on a geriatric garbage pile and the expected retirement of a gimpy rik smits were terrible blows? I put it to you that the arrival of an all-star jermaine oneal for a pedestrian rebounder/defender like dale davis was a huge boon...take into account even more experience for high school players like bender and harrington (who were of course there as well already), should be nothing but good things for a *good* coach...

whose fault is it that he had to trade jalen rose (who by the way was there 1 and a half seasons approximately)... thomas couldn't get along with him... throw in two very good players like artest and brad miller in the deal and he limped to a barely .500 record in the east... less than 10 games ahead of the hawks who had the most injuries of any team in the nba and less talent than the pacers to begin with...

Thomas took a team that won almost 60 games and was the last team to give the lakers a series in the finals and turned them into a sub-mediocre team... love him as a player all you want... clutch that one playoff showing against the nets to yourself like linus with his blanket, but thomas has not produced!

[Guest Walter]

...one (racist) fan says he's the NBA's 3rd best.

Whom should we believe?

You'd think that in a fan based contest, instant name recognition would help you win. However, Musselman beat Isaiah?!?!?!?!? A team's fans must absolutely think you suck as a coach to vote for an unknown who just got the job 1 month ago over a HOFer in his third year.

Maybe you should read the post once because it isn't just the fans that diss Isaiah but everyone else.

W

[Guest Walter]

The difference between where Karl is ranked and where I believe he belongs (about 18th) as a coach is FAR less than the difference where Thomas is ranked and where BHD thinks he belongs (3rd best...5 slots in front of Phil Jackson?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?). Moreover, you can't find a beat writer that thinks Thomas is a good coach. Most think he's worse than horrible. Who should one believe, 1,000,000 fans and all the beat writers and analysts or one, racist fan?

W

[BlackHawkDown]

1. What the hell is a "HOFer"

Is your argument that because some beer chugging losers, little kids, and non atheletic wannabes on some fan site might not like Zeke you now have credibility. HA.

Your argument is Lame at best. Again I dont know how you argue with Diesel when he is so far superior to you in knowledge. He might have lame trades but you have lame everything. What happen to the Walter who attacked my post. Now all you do is come on with these lame BHD is racist post. Now you are even qouting fan sites. Geez you are almost as bad as that little kid, almost. You are slowly losing my respect. No strike that you lost my respect a while ago but now you are getting to be cliche which is even worse. You even stoop so low as to curse other posters. Walter I hope someone takes your place I need a decent debate.

I AM A RACIST. I ONLY LIKE BLACK PLAYERS AND COACHES. You really saw through me Waltman. Wow I wish I had your life you sound like you have had nothing but excitment and accomplishment, that is probably why you are such a great philosopher.

BHD

[Guest Walter]

BHD, you are nothing more than a "beer chugging loser, little kid, and non atheletic wannabe on some fan site", except you are a racist too boot.

Of course, I wouldn't expect you to address the fact that my argument only BEGAN with a fan site comprised of a million fans like yourself, that it then went on to include Jack Ramsey, Hughes, Denberg, Aldridge, and RealGM's (whom Jaywalker lends credibility to) Indy team writer. Hard to call anyone's arguments anything when you don't acknowledge that you even read them and appear only to avoid them out of your inability to address them.

W

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

"So in other words, Rose for depth. And he

still manages to take his team to a 42-40

record and a 7th seed in the playoffs."

Yes it is bad coaching...This is the WEAK

eastern conference.That team should have

won atleast 46 games.

---

Too many times, I see this ideal of the East being "Weak" as being basis for what is good coaching and what is not. Well, today, I will dispell the rumor that the East is a Weak division.

First off, many of you claim that the East is weak based on it's comparison to the West. Yes, it's true that the top teams in the West are stronger than the top teams in the East but that doesn't mean that the east is weak. As a matter of fact, the East is stronger than the West as a division. The reason being is that there is a lot of parity in the East. Teams in the east are just about all evenly matched. There's always a fight for the playoffs. In the West it's preset which 8 teams will get in because the division is top heavy. No fight to get in. Was it really a shock that the clipps didn't get in? That's the 9th seed in the west. It was no shock and really no race for them. However, in the more evenly paired East, Milwaukee not making it was a shock. Parity.

So which is the stronger conference. The west where you already know which 8 teams are going... Or the East where on any given night any team can win.

[Guest]

Diesel's argument is correct, but I believe it lacks one observation - namely, the reason that the West is "better" than the East - Inside play. While it's true that the Mavs lack this, the other three (LAL, SAC, SAN) all have dominant PFs or Centers (or both). Currently, the East is much more of a small-ball conference, lacking interior play and height in general compared to the West.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

I'll take a stab at ranking him and I'll do it low...the championship team was not *all gone* besides reggie and croshere first of all, when thomas took over... so derrick mckey and sam perkins were tossed on a geriatric garbage pile and the expected retirement of a gimpy rik smits were terrible blows? I put it to you that the arrival of an all-star jermaine oneal for a pedestrian rebounder/defender like dale davis was a huge boon..

---

Hey... You said the arrival of an allstar... is that right? I don't remember Jermaine Oneal being an Allstar on your favorite Portland team. IN fact, I remember him being on the bench most of his time there. IN fact, I remember for a few yrs he was behind Kevin Cato on the roster. I even recall Trader Bob having regrets of trading Cato and not Oneal back then. So when the Pacers traded Davis a good role player for potential (not seen or desired in Portland) it was thought that Isiah would have to do some coaching. Well Looky... Now Oneal is an allstar. Isiah gets no credit.

While you were mentioning the names of Pacers who had departed... Let me help you.

starting C... Rick Smits.

Starting PG.... Mark Jackson.

BU C..... Dale Davis.

PF......Sam Perkins

F........Derrick McKey

F........Chris Mullen

That was yr 1.

Now he has also lost Jalen Rose, Travist Best.

Only players left are Foster, Miller, and Croshere. Huge difference. That's as much changing as we went from losing Smitty, Deke, and Mookie.

[Guest]

Oh please the Clipps/Jazz would easy be

top teams in the east.

"The reason being is that there is a lot

of parity in the East"

The east just plain out sucks.Look at Detroit

top 5 team in the east they would have been

a bottom 4 team in the west.

"So which is the stronger conference. The west

where you already know which 8 teams are

going... Or the East where on any given night

any team can win."

I'll take the proven teams of the west.They are

the real deal that is why the same teams get

in every year.

Why do you try to make silly arguements like

this?I'm sure if you look at records east vs.

west the west had a huge advange.

[Traceman]

How in the hell can you POSSIBLY conclude that I'm a Laker fan when I have rooted AGAINST them in EVERY playoff series they have had since Magic retired? I haven't rooted for the Lakers AT ALL since Magic retired and the only reason I rooted for them then was because I hated Boston worse than I disliked the Lakers.

There is a difference between having an opinion about who is the best team and HOPING that team wins. I don't HOPE the Lakers win anything. In fact, I HOPE they don't make the playoffs.

You're right, if BHD had made the statement that the Lakers are the best team, I would agree with him. However, if he had said "I am rooting against us if a series between us and the Lakers ever becomes a forum on Phil Jackson's Job" then my response to him would have been EXACTLY the same.

As for you D, this is just another in a long line of RIDICULOUS posts. Me hypocritical? HAAAAA! Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! What about you Mr. "we need a true SG with size but Kobe Bryant is all wrong for this team but Jerry Stackhouse and Bonzi Wells would be great?" Please!

I rank Zeke low because its CLEAR his teams have underachieved since he's been there. The Pacers have as much talent as ANY team in the EC and have had as much talent as any team in the EC since he's been there but they are barely a .500 team. How can you possibly compare the Pacers in the EC to the Clips in the WC? If the Clips played in the EC, they would be a playoff team too. One bad season for Karl doesn't define his career. Yes the Bucks underachieved last year but that doesn't erase what he's done over the course of his career. Now if the Bucks underachieve again this year (no playoffs) then I think its more than fair to question whether or not he's responsible as well.

As far as Carlisle goes, no Detroit didn't have a BAD team but they damn sure didn't have as much talent as Indiana. I'm sure Carlisle would be more than happy to swap rosters with Zeke, seeing as how his best player was just traded for a guy who probably wouldn't even start in Indy! As for Stack, he is a great scorer but guess who got him to play less selfishly for the good of the team? Wallace? Nothing but a role player until Carlisle took over. Robinson? Phoenix traded him to Detroit for a case of gatorade and a rack of basketballs! Williamson? He was cast off from SAC and TOR because he was nothing more than a role player for those teams. Under Carlisle, he becomes 6th man of the year! Comparing Zeke to Carlisle as a coach is like comparing Carlisle to Zeke as a player. There is no comparison!

[BlackHawkDown]

The East is weaker than the West but not as weak as everyone makes it out to be. People act as though the top team in the east couldn't beat the worst in the West. Fact is 2 years ago the West was very much dominant but the East is closing the gap. The conferences should be about even again in a couple of years.

[beav]

Hey... You said the arrival of an allstar... is that right? I don't remember Jermaine Oneal being an Allstar on your favorite Portland team.

Yep, he was playing PF behind rasheed wallace and brian grant (when grant was still pretty damn good)...

Hey most any informed portland fan knew that trading oneal was a huge mistake... he was injured his first couple of years and didn't get as much pt as he could have (if he had remained healthy) but it was due to dunleavy's decision that oneal was not given the pt that he was promised before he signed his multiyear deal... dunleavy sat him for some unknown reason, but when oneal was given pt he did a great job! In fact he was incredible! He was close to unstoppable on the offensive boards, incredibly quick and a fan favorite! I personally know of not one person that was not considerably upset when jermaine was traded(hardly the most scientific survey I know, but I'm not making this up)... it was a horrible move and there were reasons that everyone was screaming trade whitsitt even before that horrible move...

Was thomas a positive influence? yes... was he the guy that turned oneal into a star? no... playing time and jermaine's desire to prove a point did that...

While you were mentioning the names of Pacers who had departed... Let me help you.

starting C... Rick Smits.

Starting PG.... Mark Jackson.

BU C..... Dale Davis.

PF......Sam Perkins

F........Derrick McKey

F........Chris Mullen

Yes I did mention many of those guys... sam perkins smits, jackson and davis are all on social security now right? perkins and jackson were over 35 I believe (some pushing 40 I think) and their purging was a given, and as I mentioned in the previous post smits had tremendous foot problems and it was well known that he was retiring before the year was out...his numbers had steadily dropped for 5-6 years....

when was the last time that mckey was effective? 1994...1995? he was buried so far down the bench it was ridiculous... chris mullin? how old was he? my god the year after that Golden state gave him a pity contract and he couldn't even generate minutes with those guys...

Now he has also lost Jalen Rose, Travist Best.

the key word was that *he* lost jalen rose... he was the guy that ran Rose out of town and received two good experienced starters and a bench player for him...

Travis Best, good backup (hardly a star) and he did have the services of both for over a year right?

come on diesel, I know that you are a very knowledgable guy on basketball issues, but if memory serves I believe that you were also one of the guys here that was dying for atlanta to sign thomas as coach right? I just find it hard to believe that you really think that with the talent that the pacers have/had the last two years that thomas did as good of a job as kruger given the hawks incredible injuries last year?

Only players left are Foster, Miller, and Croshere. Huge difference. That's as much changing as we went from losing Smitty, Deke, and Mookie.

no way... no way... smith and deke were still in their prime and mookie still had a modicum of effectiveness... the only player that you listed that was not at least 2-3 years past his prime (or more in some cases) was davis and they came out like bandits with him...

Just because you turn over a roster, doesn't make things bad always does it? Just look at the Nets...