Hawks Lose 1st or 2nd Round.

[Diesel]

THEN NO COACH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF A PLAYER.

according to your logic... It's all about PT and the player's desire?!!?!???

In reply to:

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Was thomas a positive influence? yes... was he the guy that turned oneal into a star? no... playing time and jermaine's desire to prove a point did that...

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I guess we have to stop crediting and discrediting coaches for the development or nondevelopment of players. Who's to say that it was that that player had no desire to do well?

Bottomline though... (These are the facts).

Oneal sat behind Grant, Kato, and other stiffs in PTL... For whatever reason. Maybe they destroyed him in practice. As far as the PTL Fans who are so in the Know... A fan will be loyal to any stiff. Ask Pacer fans about Bender and his potential. Oneal was a 12.9 mpg, 3.3 rpg, 3.9 ppg player in PTL.

His first yr in Indy, he was 32.6 mpg, 12.9 ppg, 9.8 rpg PF (not great by any stretch).

This past yr, he was 37.9 mpg, 19.0 ppg, 10.50 rpg PF.

Was this the same player in PTL? I don't think so. This happened in Indy?

But according to you, Isiah had nothing to do with it.

[Diesel]

I would still take Isiah over Lon. Lon hasn't done nothing but offer up excuses. Isiah has worked with a bit of a different team but his team has been in transition just like ours and he has managed them into the playoffs. His team has been injured just like ours but he has managed them into the playoffs.

Player development.... I think Terry would have been an allstar PG under Isiah. Look at Tinsley. DIdn't take him 3 yrs to move. Look at what happened to Stoudamire when Isiah worked with him. Lon has no idea of what he's doing with Terry.

So who has Lon developed? Glover? NO. DJ? Not yet. JT? Fiddling around. Cal? No. Hanno? Not really.

Bottom line is this. WHile Isiah has taken young potential like Tinsley, Oneal, Harrington, and Artest and has maximized it... Lon hasn't made a move that wasn't forced.

Isiah would be less reliant on CBA talent like Lrob, Email, and the like. Had Email not gotten Hurt, DJ would still be on the bench. Had Lrob, Glover, and JJ not been hurt at the same time, JT would be watching games behind Matt Maloney.

Know the Game from the front office to the floor. Isiah has done it all. He would have demanded more from the front office. He would have been a better manager on the floor. Players would want to play for Isiah. Ask JT who is his favorite player of all time. HINT: It's not GP. With the Cities possibilities, Isiah would make Atlanta a bigger market.

so the question, would I still take Isiah over Lon?

Yep.

[Diesel]

http://www.nba.com/clippers/stats/team_splits.html

http://www.nba.com/jazz/stats/team_splits.html

You are the second person who has posted who has said

"IF LAC (and Utah) were in the East, they would be good". Look over the splits. IF they were in the East and had to play Eastern teams 4 times and Western teams only twice, they would probably be WORST off than they are in the West with Memphis, Denver, Golden State, and Phoenix willing to give them 4 victories a yr.

Again. The West is TOP HEAVY. All the teams at the top look really good, but what about those on the bottom.

Denver, Golden State, Phoenix, Memphis Houston... That's 5teams that might give you easy wins... (4 easy wins). That's like 20 wins already.

In the east, you have the Cavs, Bulls, and Knicks. After that it's hard games. AND the East have more teams.

[Guest]

D, you know basketball, and you know the Hawks. Using that logic, how can you, Lon hasn't done nothing but offer up excuses."

While I sometimes question his substitution patterns and think he "falls in love with players" a little too often (Hanno in particular), one of the things that I really respect(ed) about him this past season was his avoidance of "just offering up excuses." He never did. He'd say, yeah, we have a lot of injuries and this isn't the line-up we had planned for, but he never blamed losses on the situation.

"I think Terry would have been an allstar PG under Isiah. Look at Tinsley"

While Isiah would have been a little more publicity for the team, I think Atlanta's record has been the biggest detriment to Terry's "all-starness." I mean, SAR was an all-star this year...there was no way for Terry to do it - you can't have two all-stars on a team, with neither of them being hurt during the year, and have a record like 15-34 (that's about what we had at the all-star break I believe).

And what did happen to Tinsley....where was he during the playoff push or in the playoff? Backing up and sitting on the bench.

"Bottom line is this. WHile Isiah has taken young potential like Tinsley, Oneal, Harrington, and Artest and has maximized it... Lon hasn't made a move that wasn't forced."

I'll give you O'Neal and even Harrington; the latter was really coming on last season until he blew that ACL (though I think most of does have to do with pt and the fact that O'Neal came straight from hs to Portland...a playoff team that was contending for a Championship; to a lesser extent, Harrington too), but Artest was developed by the Bulls (he's played with them for less than HALF A SEASON), and well, the Tinsley bandwagon has sure lost a lot of steam and passengers lately...can't go left, can shoot straight - great passer though).

Like I said, I'm not saying Lon's done everything that we could hope for, but he gets some credit for having to do so much improvisation from week to week. Zeek has proven nothing. Indy has that veteran, um Miller's his name I think, who's been there, done that and made countless All-Star teams and clutch post-season performances...we don't really have that locker room presence either.

[Traceman]

who was coming off an All Star season to Portland for O'Neal because they didn't expect him to be any good? The KNEW O'Neal was going to be good! EVERYONE knew he was going to be good. Portland was trying to win a title the year they made the trade and didn't think they had time to wait for O'Neal to develop. They thought Davis could give them the physical presence they needed to batle Shaq. Obviously, they were wrong but that deosn't take away from the fact that everyone knew O'Neal was going to be good. In my opinion, Isiah just benefitted from the development that O'Neal got while he was in Portland, he had VERY little to do with O'Neal's development.

[beav]

oneal had 12.3 minutes per game the year before he went to indy... then averaged 32.6 with the pacers... think that affected his numbers?

he never played behind cato! cato never played anything other than center his two years in portland!

oneal never played center in portland until after cato was long gone and even then the bulk of his minutes were at forward....jermaine was when he arrived with the blazers and was skinny as a rail... he also had significant injuries two of his years with the blazers that forced him to miss half of the seasons...

grant was a stiff? Not when he was in portland... he averaged around 12 ppg and 8 rpg on less than 30 minutes a night at power forward, and played great defense...is that a stiff in your book? what do you base that on?

once again oneal played behind rasheed and grant... not grant and cato... you seemed to have forgotten about rasheed...

playing time playing time my friend..

in regards to your other post however I do give thomas credit for developing tinsley... artest's numbers and defense had neglible differences from chicago so nothing to credit there...bender and harrington? he's done a so so job there...

hey that's fine if you want thomas over lon that is your business... of all the possible rumored coaches thomas was last on my list! lon came out of nowhere to be considered but he would have been slightly ahead of isiah by one notch on my list...

what lon did to win 33 games was tougher than what isiah has done to win 42.... will that make Lon a better coach next year? who knows?

so what if JT idolized him? Jt has been pretty damn developed as far as I am concerned the last 2 years...

bottom line...you like thomas as a coach, I do not...

if he turns the pacers into a 2nd or at least 3rd seed in the east with at least 50 wins I will give him credit for improving his act, until then as far as I am concerned he will continue to be a failure...

[Traceman]

the Jazz was 19-11. Based on that, yeah, I'd say they would both be good in the EC. The West might be top heavy but the average teams in the West can compete with the best teams in the EC.

[Diesel]

http://cbs.sportsline.com/u/ce/feature/0,1518,2723923_54,00.html

http://archive.basketballnews.com/content/...spin_090100.asp

In reply to:

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Davis is due to be a free agent in 2001 and likely wouldn’t have been re-signed by Indiana. In that sense, what the Pacers did was smart.

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http://espn.go.com/nba/news/2000/0831/714368.html

This is for Beav ...

In reply to:

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"I just don't think he was as talented as the guys who were playing in front of him," Blazers coach Mike Dunleavy said of O'Neal.['/quote]

[beav]

"I just don't think he was as talented as the guys who were playing in front of him," Blazers coach Mike Dunleavy said of O'Neal.['/quote]

yes rasheed was playing in front of him... is he as talented as rasheed? they are pretty darn equal as far as I am concerned... so I don't really disagree with him there...

[Diesel]

What was it about Brian Grant's game that was better than Oneal's? Sad to say, Grant was a fan favorite in Portland but he was not that good. He was rebound/putback kind of guy. He was gritty but not 9 million dollars worth of player. He was Big Al Henderson (healthy) with more playing time.

Portland felt like they got a super deal getting rid of the young guy. Davis was old and up for a contract renewal. They played the same position. Oneal averaged 3.9 ppg, 3.3 rebpg. He sucked in PTL.

His first yr in Indy with 32+ Minutes, he averaged 12 ppg 9.8 rpg. They really thought he was at most Ben Wallace. Even Indy's front office said that Oneal would not be an offensive powerhouse. It was Zeke who formulated plays for the Ben Wallace type. Got him to be an almost 20/10 man. But of Course, Zeke gets no credit....

[beav]

sorry diesel but that is your opinion about grant... it is also a completely unformulated statement about oneal's offensive game...Oneal was one of the quickest big mean I have ever seen going to the offensive glass with or without the ball... he has clearly stronger offensively to anyone that had seen many blazers games...

Since I have lived in portland since 1-96 I have seen over 80% if every blazers game... I have seen most every game that oneal has played... oneals strength was always offense when he played...

I have seen grant play hundreds of games...

he scored well for a PF played good defense, was a good rebounder and had a good attitude... once again what is your definition of a stiff? it sounds like you have upgraded him to "not being worth the money" at least...

[Traceman]

What's your point? The Pacers knew O'Neal had a big upside and they were trying to build around their young core, which now includes O'Neal. They could have resigned Davis if they had been so inclined. Instead, they chose to trade him for a young talent (O'Neal) and sign Austin Croshere. You do realize that Croshere's contract is bigger than Davis'? And as I said, Portland was looking for Davis and Kemp to add more big bodies to battle Shaq. They were going for the title when they made that trade but they didn't make it and now I'm sure they wish they could take it back.

[Lrenfro]

We must be careful of our expectations. Prior to the last few years we made it to the second round almost every year only to be kicked out. We demanded more. So Stan and Pete made some changes, the team got worse. Now all we want to do is get back to where we were. Well that’s where you're wrong. I still demand more than what we had. I don't want just the second round. I need at the very least a third round appearance. Please folks don't settle for less because we had less. I am still hungry from 3 seasons ago. If you are not going to give us more, then you have wasted the last 3 seasons. Show me that you made us suffer for a reason.

Yes I am still here. I have not had much to say this summer. I am waiting on some action. When the season starts.

[Diesel]

The Articles rightly stated.

1. Dale Davis' contract would be up in 2001 and he was unlikely to resign with Indy.

2. Oneal was seen a player that could come in and play defense and rebound. (not to be a 20 ppg player). He was supposed to be a replacement for Smits had he retired because Oneal was 7'0. But offensively he was a 3.3 ppg player and they said his offense needed a lot of work.

You said that they thought that "The KNEW O'Neal was going to be good! EVERYONE knew he was going to be good."

Now you can go back and fourth by what you mean by "they knew Oneal was going to be good" I mean you can change your definition of good all day and night here... HOWEVER, had you followed the thread, this statement by beav was the original argument....

In reply to:

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I put it to you that the arrival of an all-star jermaine oneal for a pedestrian rebounder/defender like dale davis was a huge boon..

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So to say good is one thing... But in beavs case and since you sided with him in this argument you're basically saying that they knew that he would be an allstar. Which is clearly not the case. The truth according to those articles is that they knew he would be a younger bigger Dale Davis.

[beav]

But in beavs case and since you sided with him in this argument you're basically saying that they knew that he would be an allstar. Which is clearly not the case. The truth according to those articles is that they knew he would be a younger bigger Dale Davis

hmmm... is that what it said? I can post articles that can infer many things diesel and once again as someone that has actually seen most of the blazers games I do have firsthand knowledge....

once again you can quote oneals numbers but not his lack of playing time and desire to prove himself... the blazers made a promise to him before he signed the long-term contract, that he would get more minutes... he had proved himself over and over in practice and with his limited minutes had been very impressive...

from allsports.com 5-3-01

2000 Had the Blazers gaining the so called all-star forward Dale Davis from Indiana for the Jermaine O'Neal and Brian Grant to Miami in return the Blazers deluded themselves into thinking they could revive Shawn Kemp. As good as 1999 and 1996 had been the law of averages caught up with Whitsitt as the Blazers destroyed the team chemistry and O'Neal blossomed with playing time for the Pacers and Kemp left the team because of drug problems. While Davis pouted about playing time and proved a negative effect in the playoffs. 2000 ranks next to selecting Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan in the NBA draft in Blazer forgettable moments. First round playoff loss

oneal "blossomed" with playing time as the article states... playing time playing time playing time...

also...

Jermaine O’NEAL (6’11”, 226lbs, salary $950,640)

G M/Gm PCT 3m 3a 3% FT% APG SPG TPG BPG RPG PPG

60 13.5 .485 0 2 .000 .506 0.3 0.2 0.9 1.0 3.3 4.5

It seems you only hear Jermaine’s name mentioned in the national media when a high school player is being denigrated, i.e.: “He thinks he’s the next Kevin Garnett, but really he’s the next Jermaine O’Neal”. Blazer fans in general are a lot higher on him, though. He’s still raw (he is only 19) but he’s not soft: he’s a very good rebounder for someone so thin, and he’s always had great hops. It’s not really surprising he hasn’t had much PT when Grant, Wallace, and Trent or Williams were the forwards ahead of him, but that doesn’t mean the Blazers think he’s a bust. He always looks good in summer league, and rumors always bounce around that he’s still growing, and he’s using creatine to bulk up. If Rasheed WAS moved for a guard, say, he’d get his chance. He hasn’t shown he can dribble, but then, neither has Rasheed. A good player to keep developing on your bench, but will definitely test the FA waters next year unless his PT goes up drastically (and for that reason probably won’t agree to an extension this summer).

once again.. the "fans" knew that jermaine was a good player! we could all see it, regardless of the small tidbits of info. that other people received here and there...jermaine missed the bulk of two season while he was here, but continued to bulk up and improve and most nba fans that don't see the blazers that often certainly would not have seen what day to day blazers fans see with bench players... the blazers have had a unique (and oftentimes quite dysfunctional) situation here because every single position has to be fought for tooth and nail for PT! only dallas the last 2 years (and possibly sacto now) have had situations with such logjams...

Trace is right... Whitsitt traded him away the year after they had the best record in the league most of the year but fell by one shot to the lakers of reaching the finals... he gambled on kemp and davis and the blazers lost...

Isiah was in the right place at the right time... if the hawks were smart enough to see what most blazers fans see then we'd be the recipients of jermaines play...

[beav]

of posting articles, here is a more recent one and the subject of what this entire post is all about.... is this one that you agree with or disagree with more from ESPN?

Isiah Thomas, Indiana Pacers

For the last two seasons, all we've heard is how young the Pacers are. That's true. They are young. So is the league. But they were a year older than they were the year before and we still heard how young they were. At some point, you need results, and the guess here is that Pacers management isn't going to sit idly by and watch this group of talented kids again slog through to another break-even season. There's really no excuse for it; they're better than that. There probably aren't a handful of teams who wouldn't swap rosters with Donnie Walsh, but, to date, the returns are unconvincing. Two eighth-place finishes. Two first-round exits. Forever .500, whether it was with or without Jalen Rose, or with or without Al Harrington. And, let's not forget, they still have the 37-year-old Indiana Icon himself, Reggie Miller.

I'm just glad someone printed something that is so obvious to most nba fans...

[Diesel]

First off, don't show me some "Buyers remorse" article after the fact..... That doesn't tell the seniments and the facts of the trade while they happened. The facts are that The Blazers felt that Oneal wasn't that talented. I mean you can add in as talented as Wallace and Grant but wasn't Grant traded during the same time? It really means that they didn't think he was talented enough to invest the time in to train him.

The first article you presented is simply a remorse article. HELL anybody can do that.

Babcock could come up and say, well trading Steve Smith for JJ and JR Rider was a calculated Salary dump. However, the truth of the matter was that he felt that he could revive the Hawks with those two players. He had been saying the same for 4 yrs previous.

My point is... What is the truth?

The truth is with all of it's big men (Smits, Perkins, Davis) aging, Indy found a way to bring in Youth. They never suspected that they were getting the Allstar like you claimed.

[Diesel]

So you're saying that Almost beating the Eastern Champion NJ Nets isn't good enough. I mean, they went to 5 games with them and lost game 5 in double overtime in NJ? Game 3 was a Reggie Miller Missed Jumpshot for the win and he missed the wide open easy shot.

I guess that means that Zeke is a bad coach?

My point is this, Zeke has been working with a lineup in transition. A young team. How do you lose your TOP SCORER in Jalen Rose and replace him with guys who are all role players in the middle of the season. What you have is a team that has to learn how to score again and a team that needs to change it's scoring emphasis.

I think that Zeke did a very good job considering. However I expect INdy to be really good this yr. Now, they have all their pieces. They have Harrington back. I expect that Chemistry should be much better with Harrington and Miller © playing in the frontcourt with Oneal.

[beav]

First off, don't show me some "Buyers remorse" article after the fact.....

hey I'll show you as many articles as you show me... that's how it should be right?

That doesn't tell the seniments and the facts of the trade while they happened. The facts are that The Blazers felt that Oneal wasn't that talented.

I still have seen nothing to prove that completely... one quote? that wasn't really the point anyway was it? the *fact* was that the *fans* knew and donnie walsh knew... isiah inherited the windfall...

I mean you can add in as talented as Wallace and Grant but wasn't Grant traded during the same time?

gotcha! the blazers thought they had grant over a barrel since they could offer him so much more than anyone else... surprise bang! the blazers offered him an 80 million dollar contract and he turned it down to sign with the heat for a 2.5 mil exception! playing time to grant was more important than the money!

The truth is with all of it's big men (Smits, Perkins, Davis) aging, Indy found a way to bring in Youth. They never suspected that they were getting the Allstar like you claimed.

now who is completely speculating... you have no idea of this claim... I'm only going on what myself and blazers fans know...how do you know what donnie walsh knew?

regardless of your protesting...I'm basing my argument on seeing 80% of the blazers games over his four year span here... yours is based on..... hunches? a couple of your pre-approved articles?

[beav]

So you're saying that Almost beating the Eastern Champion NJ Nets isn't good enough. I mean, they went to 5 games with them and lost game 5 in double overtime in NJ? Game 3 was a Reggie Miller Missed Jumpshot for the win and he missed the wide open easy shot.

for what I am saying refer to my very first post on the subject... thomas should have had his team at a better seed to begin with so that they weren't even playing NJ anyway... the blazers came within one shot of beating the lakers 2 years ago... who cares?

I guess that means that Zeke is a bad coach?

no, his record in the EAST with the talent that he has had the last 2 years has indicated that his coaching has been subpar.... I imagine he'll have one last chance this year to prove myself and his (ever-increasing) critics wrong...

My point is this, Zeke has been working with a lineup in transition. A young team. How do you lose your TOP SCORER in Jalen Rose and replace him with guys who are all role players in the middle of the season.

who lost Jalen? Brad Miller is one of the better starting centers in the east, and just ask jordan about artest.... now mercer was indeed a role player with barely a role I'll give you that...

I think that Zeke did a very good job considering. However I expect INdy to be really good this yr. Now, they have all their pieces. They have Harrington back. I expect that Chemistry should be much better with Harrington and Miller © playing in the frontcourt with Oneal.

And you know what, I respect your opinion. I just happen to disagree about his coaching the last year. I expected Indy to be much better last year and perhaps that is the root of where our disagreement lies. Once again if Thomas delivers this year and has his team playing to its potential, I will be very happy to admit that he has improved greatly and your faith in him was justified.