FUNDAMENTALS

[BlackHawkDown]

What is this Fundamentals BS, every European player is always described as having " Great Fundamentals" . That is BS, every player in the NBA has great fundamentals. You cant get past college off of raw atheletic ability because by then everyone has great atheletic ability and even better training and conditioning. I am challenging everyone on Hawksquawk to name even one player or pro athelete to that doesn't have solid fundamental. The average college athelete spends @ least 30 hours practicing in some shape form or fashion, and pro atheletes spend up to 60hours in some cases, I don't understand this myth that there is anyone in the world that went pro without solid fundamentals and a lot of hard work. Atheletic ability alone isnt enough

[Guest]

Fundamental players:

Ray Allen

Tim Duncan

Kobe Bryant

Karl Malone

John Stockton

Non fundamental players:

Antonie Walker

Baron Davis

Kenyon Martin

Steve Francis-How many times does he turn

the ball over a game???

It's also about playing as a team.This is how a

old Jazz team gave the Kings so much trouble.

THe Jazz team that went to the finals would beat

the Kings.Not on talent,BUT because they made

very few mistakes and could shoot outside of 8

feet.

Those forgien teams play good TEAM DEFENSE and

they were sucessful.This is how the 1997 Jazz beat

the Lakers despite being less talented.

It isn't a "myth"the results of the World Champion-

ship speak truth to it and the fact that a 39 year old Malone and a 41 year old Stockton can take the Kings

to the limit.

Blaming Karl for the teams performance is dumb.He's

not the one that told these guys to abandon jump

shots and concentrate on dunking.Why don't you

blame the players for failure to beat good team

defense.Why don't you blame the players for shooting

under 70% in free throws...That's a HUGE problem

in the NBA.You also factor in that Donyell Marshall

was a top 5 in FG% at 51% and that is a joke.

[Guest Walter]

To say that all NBA players have "solid fundamentals" may or may not be accurate dependant upon how you define the words "solid" and "fundamentals", however, assuming every NBA player has at least "solid fundamentals" as a result of their NBA-ness, since according to BHD you cant get past college off of raw atheletic ability, there are undoubtedly those with better than solid, ranging from slightly better to exceedingly far superior than "solid fundamentals".

To have "solid fundamentals" (whatever that really means) and still have the weakest of "solid fundamentals" in the game (as there is somebody who has that distinction) doesn't speak well of the term "solid fundamentals" or that individual's chances in a league where according to BHD, everyone has "solid fundamentals".

...

Also, BHD you argue that "you can't get past college off of raw athletic ability". Given that few if any legitimate players finish or even start college these days before entering the NBA, what does that say about their "fundamentals"?

All that being said, too much is a lost art in US basketball. Passing, mid range offensive game, the art of the fast break. Watch a foreign game, for example ARgentina verses the US. How many times did the US get beaten on backdoor cuts?!? 25 times? Something is wrong with our fundamentals relative to ARgentina's as a whole to let that happen against a less talented team. I didn't see the Yugoslavia game but I presume the same.

W

W

[Boondocks]

That's an easy one,

Shaq

He is the most dominant NBA center ever but he lacks technique aka fundamentals. Has bad footwork, lousy jumper, bad stroke, carries the ball and makes offensive fouls like they ain't nuttin'...

This thing about fundamentals is merely the showboat aspect.

Crazy ballhandling and dunking in various ways isn't fundamentals, it's by-the-book footwork, passing and jumping. In europe, no matter how tall you are you have to learn the basics instead of what is fitted with your position. Instead of how it works in the states with very good HS players playing against weaker (same age) opponents, very good young europeans can play semi-pro or even full fledged pro while still in school. HS variants in europe don't even have competitve leagues against each other, it's all done in your spare time. So a good player keeps training and keeps being surrounded by more advanced players vs. young players in the states who flatout dominate most of the time against their own age players.

It's a difference in mindset. Young players in europe aren't running around to adidas or nike camps being promised future endorsements or being recruited for some college. They get paid a little and play pro (or pine on the bench) while training all week after school on, you know I was going to say it, fundamentals. No one is kissing their behinds saying how good they are, they have to proof it to professional players, no showboating or they ride the bench, no free sneakers instead they function as towel boys..

[chillzatl]

I define basketball fundamentals as being able to shoot the ball and accept that passing the ball wins games. And sorry, but most of the euro players have better fundamentals than the majority of NBA draftees. It's just a fact. That's why you hear so much about upside and potential when talking about draft picks. Because they LACK FUNDAMENTALS or because they are terribly one-dimensional players. GMs hope that they can teach these guys how to play the game. Was Kwame Brown picked because he has fundamentals? Hell no. He was picked on athletic ability ONLY. He has zero fundamentals. Just like most players coming into the draft.

[Guest]

The root of the problem has been mentioned - when of HS age, the Euro's begin to "play" pro or semi-pro ball with more veteran players. However, the hierarchy in Europe is very stringent - rooks just don't get much pt. Even the Euro's drafted this year (Genobilli etc.) didn't start on their pro teams because they were too young. They got some pt, but were forced to learn how to play the game before being turned loose.

In the US, HS kids dominate. They're allowed to play however they like because, in the end, they're athletic/ good enough in general to win the game. But it's against HS players...many of which included people on this board.

BHD, you're right, you do learn fundamentals in college. It's the primary reason that I hate to see guys come out early (after soph is early, but perhaps understandable; after junior year is much mroe preferable). I realize that for many of them, much of the decision is financial (to support their families). But look at most of the rooks who have made immediate impacts on their teams...Battier for one. By staying in school, he learned fundamentals. He's a better all-round player for it. Additionally, he also learned about leadership (a responsability never given to a freshmen, rarely to a sophmore). (sidenote - you gotta give Jay Williams his due - he may have left after three years, but he graduated - I can't say enough about how much respect that deserves).

College players are allowed to have "supervised" practice 20 hours per week, no more (NCAA mandate from about 1990). In order to circumvent this, almost all weight training and other "off-court" training sessions are done without coaches being present.

Once in the pros, yes, you can practice as much as you want, theoretically. But once the season starts, practice time is quite limited due to travel/ games (thus hindering the development of these fundamentals). You can't work on "fundamentals" too much during the morning shoot around.

It's why the offseason is so critical to a players growth. It's really the only time that a guy can get solid, consistent work on his faults. However, it's rare that most of a team gets together to work with each other (I love our monthly summer mini-camps) - you've all read the articles about the people playing in Houston etc. It's great that they're there, playing with other pro players (and sometimes having a coach around - Lucas in Houston according to the article), but jsut think what could be if most of a team hung out, learned more about each others nuances, and recieved daily guidance from coaches who have only their best interest at heart!

[BlackHawkDown]

Well the following players were mentioned as lacking fundamentals :

Antonie Walker : He looks a little sloppy but he also post 20+PPG Rebounds and can pass better than most college players. I dont really see were the fundamentals lack. I do think he is a WANNA BE ballhog. But factor in that he is playing the best in the world everynight.

Baron Davis : ? I dont understand

Kenyon Martin : Rebounds, plays great D. What is lacking in his game

Steve Francis : Does flashiness mean you have no fundamentals, nobody gets on Stockton or DD for the same thing

Shaq : He might have a mental problem regarding free throws, but their isn't anything less coached and fundamental than his game.

I think many people now feel that 7'0"ers should be sissyballing PGs, any American or African (and some Latin) player is taught to play their position. Thus any kid over 6'8" in high school is taught either the Center or PF position. However in Europe everyone seems to be an oversized PG. Kenny Smith said that is no better just different. KMart plays fundamentally sound ball for his position. The list goes onm and on.

If everyone starts playing Eurostyle ball then the future of basketball is in a shambles. I already feel bad for the Asian leagues because they seem to be emulating that style.

As for the NCAA my hatred runs deep. That 20 hour rule is just a figment of the NCAA's imagination. Most every major team has weight training and running, unsupervised, that is worse than the practices. And if you want to at least play a couple of years pro overseas then you have to train even harder. I could go into the racism, and other inequities of the NCAA but who has time?

[Guest]

Antonie Walker : He looks a little sloppy but he also post 20+PPG Rebounds and can pass better than most college players. I dont really see were the fundamentals lack. I do think he is a WANNA BE ballhog. But factor in that he is playing the best in the world everynight."

39% shooting PF and he still turns the ball over a

ton.

"Kenyon Martin : Rebounds, plays great D. What is

lacking in his game"

Well he gets 95% off his points off atheletic ability..

doesn't have much of a jumper right now....not

enough post moves.He's a leaper and not much

else right.Rebounds?He only gets 5 rebounds a

game which is subpar for a Power Foward.How does

a PF only get 5 rebounds a game?There are PG's

that nearly rebound aswell as him.This guy is

severaly overrated.Again how do explain his poor rebounding?Until he gets 19/8 he is not a top

Power Foward.Kenyon is a poor mans Shawn

Marion.14/5 is not enough to consider somebody

a top player.Henderson could give that production

back in the day.

"Shaq : He might have a mental problem regarding

free throws, but their isn't anything less coached

and fundamental than his game."

Shaq is a better passer than what he showed this

season.He also plays more like a classic center and

I don't know if you can really say he lacks funda

mentals.

"I think many people now feel that 7'0"ers should be sissyballing PGs, "

Why do you assume things so much???I RARELY

to talk somebody that enjoys the lack of centers

in league.In fact,90% of people try and use this

as the sole reason for Shaq's sucess.Sure people

are a fan of guys that can play all 5 positions but

fans also see the effect lack of centers is having

on the game.

"Steve Francis : Does flashiness mean you have

no fundamentals, nobody gets on Stockton or DD

for the same thing:

Turns the ball over at 4TPG and needs to work on

his team game more.He's a classic one on one

player.

"If everyone starts playing Eurostyle ball then

the future of basketball is in a shambles. I

already feel bad for the Asian leagues because

they seem to be emulating that style."

It's obvious that you don't care that much that

today's players can't shoot a lick.You are a fan

of junkball.Too bad most people aren't as proof

by the loss of fanbase over the last 4 years.

The problem is guys like Baron Davis I like him

as a person and think it would be cool to know

him, but he's a one on one player.Ditto for Steve

Francis.

" KMart plays fundamentally sound ball for his

position.'

If you consider him fundamentally sound i really

don't know how to help you.He doesn't hit the

board enough and he has no moves on offense

other than a dunk.

I don't want to see 350 Peja's but I like to have

some to help even things out.There are to many

dunkers with limited skills in other areas.That

doesn't really matter to you...but as I said before

I bet it has a big effect on people that don't

watch.

The highest rating series this year was the Kings/

Mavs series I believe....Is it really hard to see why?

People don't really get off on watching the Lakers

and sure as hell don't get off on eastern conference

teams.

If they were more teams like the Mavs and Kings

I'd be willing to bet more people watch.For every

person that enjoys junk ball there are 5 fans that

hate it or else the league wouldn't be in as bad

of shape as it is in.

[Nique21]

Actually fundamentals is summed up most by passing, shooting, and dribbling. Fundamentals is not about results, it is about doing something the correct way.

Example: any NBA player can make a layup with his right hand on the left side of the rim.

Fundamentally: this is incorrect, you should put the layup with the left hand on the left side of the rim.

Results: they both count two points, and no one says anything as long as the ball goes in or doesn't get blocked.

Since NBA Players are so talented, and get the job done, coaches seem to let fundamentals slip by the waste side.

Just because a player makes every shot he takes, doesn't make him fundamentally sound. There is a correct way to shoot, dribble, and even pass the ball. Comparing stats and fundamentals is a waste of time. Just because someone gets good stats in the free throw department, doesn't mean he shoots free throws fundamentally correct. Coaches want results, and as long as the player provides that, then fundamentals will always take a back seat, at the pro level.

[Guest]

Since NBA Players are so talented, and get

the job done, coaches seem to let funda-

mentals slip by the waste side."

WHen they are playing the games and are

2-10 shooting they don't look all that talented

do they?

The Jazz are a sample of fundamentals because

they sit out their plan and everybody knows what

it is...However in 1997 more talented teams like

the Lakers where unable to beat it.Because they

were able to run their basic plan there were able

to get the job done despite everyone knowing what

they want to do.

"Coaches want results, and as long as the player

provides that, then fundamentals will always take

a back seat, at the pro level."

They didn't get the results in the World Champion

ship did they?As more forgien players come into

the league help turn it into REAL basketball I

hope the american players learn how to play real

basketball again.

Games like the Boston/Heat game that didn't get

out of the 60's should never happen.I team should

never win a game 66-65.There has been players that

have had 66 point games.There is no excuse for a

team to only score that many points in a game.No

excuse.That isn't "talent"and it makes the league

look bad.My friend and I sat and laughed our asses

off at that game.How when players couldn't get to

the rim they threw up wild shots.He wondered how

I could sit and watch crummy games like this on

regular basis.

If David Stern knew how to run a business he would

do a better job of stoping things like this from

happening.Stop high schoolers from coming in and

require players to play atleast 3 seasons of college

ball before coming out.If the league keeps going

the way it is the deal is it might just fold sooner

or later and it might happen sooner rather than

later...

Didn't somebody the other day just sad their cable

company isn't doing the NBA package thing due to

poor sales last year??It's just a example of how

bad off the league is in.

[Nique21]

You lost me man. You are picking out certain performances and losing results as to my quotes?

I'm just saying, fundamentals and results are different things. A player or team may perform poorly on a certain night due to lack of fundamentals. But just because you do everything fundamentally correct, doesn't mean you have great nights and wins.

[BlackHawkDown]

Fundamentals are a hell of alot more than dribbling, shooting and passing. Although those are the most important factors in sissyball, when everyone is a 7'0" pansy PG. There are so many more thing to learn than that it is pointless to enumerate them. By the time you play College ball or even in a Semi pro league those are things that are practiced less because they are expected and a player is expected to work on them anyway.

[KZ3]

"Fundamentals are a hell of alot more than dribbling, shooting and passing. Although those are the most important factors in sissyball, when everyone is a 7'0" pansy PG. "

Is sissyball your word for basketball? Since dribbling, shooting, and passing are the most important factors in sissyball, what do they take a backseat to in non-sissyball? I have a hard time understanding how you can be a good player without being able to dribble, shoot, or pass well.

[Guest Walter]

Is "running" a fundamental? "Hops"? No, they are a part of athleticism. Yes, running can be improved and there is technique, but it remains an athletic venture, not a skill in the context of basketball.

Maybe "thugging" is a basketball fundamental. Maybe the appropriate "skill" to reflect the fundamental of "thugging" is flagrant fouls. WHATEVA. Oh, and I forgot. CC is an "effimenent pansy sissy euroballer" and a poll on Nazr or any other black player doesn't have that voting option.

Maybe the mysterious basketball "fundamental" other than shooting, dribbling, and passing that is SOOOOOOOOOOO important is being black. Ya think?

KZ, good response. You may not wish to characterize anyone as racist, but your understated disbelief at how an individual can sink to arguing that (I CAN ONLY ASSUME)...

1) black players have "fundamentals"

2) however, "fundamentals" in this case effectively exclude dribbling, shooting, and passing

3) and that's an advantage or good thing in the game of basketball

...is ludicrious.

BHD, it would do you well to seek professional help for your predjudices. You have sunk to insisting black players have the "fundamentals" to do something other than the sport of basketball! It would be funny if the underlying predjudice weren't so ugly.

W

[BlackHawkDown]

You are officially insane. You pick the stupidiest arguments to justify your one and only point. BHD is racist. What does thuging have to do with being Black? I am tired of you so I will just ignore you for a while because you are a broken record. You have not brought a worthy argument in more than a month. I would tear at you but it is a waste, Diesel usually shows you up. What happen to that caustic sardonic wit. You are slowly showing your colors which shows you know very little about the art of debate or philosophy. The point isnt to make assumptions, you just make an a** of you. Your strategy of baiting is at best inadaquete against me, but with your great education, you have decided to stick to a losing strategy. Sun tzu in the art of war encourages that when possible diversify your attack in order to confuse your opponent when weak appear strong when strong appear weak, however you have failed to do any of this you have overplayed your cards and become a cliche. I would extrapolate and give a more nuanced analysis of your defective style but you ar lame and I have lost interest in you. Enjoy your exciting life great mountain philospher.

PS. I will help you out. Several other have called me racist many I believed to be scrubs so I never did more than mock them. However I believed you had potential to be a worthwhile adversary, at least in this forem for the purpose of a good natured debate, However you failed me and that is sad because you accousted me with the arrogant swagger of a accomplished and intelligent eridite.

GO WALTER THE WCU SCHOLAR!!! YOU SIR ARE A GENTLEMAN AND A UT PHILOSOPHER. FULL RIDE , I AM SO IMPRESSED.