Shaeef chats

[Guest]

http://dynamic.espn.go.com/espn/chat/chatNBA?event_id=2502

"Steve(Maine): shareef- what have you worked on most this offseason to improve you game?

Shareef Adbur-Rahim: My strength, my perimeter jump shot. That's pretty much it."

One things for sure he doesn't even come close to

tooting his own horn and he doesn't very like a

talker.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Sean (Atlanta): Shareef, I watch every Hawks game, and I love counting on your consistency night in and night out to help the Hawks put another w in the win column. How do you think rookie point guard Dan Dickau can contribute to your game, along with your teammates?

Shareef Adbur-Rahim: Dan is good at getting everyone involved. He can sense when a guy is going. He can really shoot and handle the ball. I think he'll bring a different element to our team.

---

I hate to bring this up for all of you who are closed minded... But Sounds to me like Shareef is saying that Dan has better court awareness than JT as a PG? I mean, it's implied but saying he'll bring a different element to our team is sorta like saying this is something we haven't had previously... Right?

[mbergsma]

Yup Diesel, I noticed that too. But I didn't want to look into it like that because Shareef has never seemed like the type of guy to say that sort of thing. I think he just phrased his thoughts wrongly.

[Guest]

I KNEW you were gunna say that you are so

predictable.lol

I'll tell what I think it means.I think JT is not

so good on the fast break as he is half court.This

is what I spoke about.

"I mean, it's implied but saying he'll bring a different element to our team is sorta like saying this is something we haven't had previously... Right?"

So your saying Vaughn didn't bring this to the team

last year?Vaughn didn't have court awareness???

Wouldn't know it by his assist to TO rate.Sounds

like you are reaching again in attempt to fit your

arguement.

Now you going to say Vaughn didn't provide us with

court awareness?

Speaking of court awareness I'm dissapointed to

to find out Shareef hasn't worked on his post

passing.He seems to fail to realize this is apart

of his game that needs improvement and he will

never become a complete player until he stops being

clueless about this.

[Diesel]

Saying tha Dickau has the ability to know when a guy is going... Then to say that he will bring a different element to the team implies exactly what a said. Something that we haven't had before.

As far as Vaughn... Vaughn was very good at hitting the open man but can you say that Vaughn knew when a guy was going to go? How many alley-opps did Vaughn complete last yr? How many times did Vaughn or JT thread the ball through traffic to the cutting player?

This is the same thing I said after we drafted Dickau... Terry (and Vaughn) built up those assists numbers by making the EASY assists. I took flack for it, but today the guy who says what he means has said it.

[Guest]

As far as Vaughn... Vaughn was very good at hitting the open man but can you say that Vaughn knew when a guy was going to go? How many alley-opps did Vaughn complete last yr? How many times did Vaughn or JT thread the ball through traffic to the cutting player?"

Who other than DJ is gunna catch a alley-op???Nazr's

fat a**?Shareef?Toni Kukoc?Hanno?

"Saying tha Dickau has the ability to know when a guy

is going... Then to say that he will bring a different

element to the team implies exactly what a said.

Something that we haven't had before."

I think Vaughn brought this element to the team last

year.

"How many times did Vaughn or JT thread the ball through traffic to the cutting player? "

Vaughn did that lots of times!JT didn't but Vaughn did..

Hence we had this before.

"Terry (and Vaughn) built up those assists numbers

by making the EASY assists."

It's funny how you would use Vaughn as part of your

reason before as why JT is not a pg and now you

state that he got easy assist.Besides who gives a

[censored] how you get assist anyway as long as you get

them...Does it only count as half a assist when it

is a "easy assist"(Whatever the heck that term

means)what are you trying to proof?Or is this

another one of your Stack is better for us than

Kobe arguements?OR is this a "Reef is a top

10"player arguement?

I'll be honest,I think alot of the stuff you have

come up with the last few months has been

totally stupid.

ESP when you think a top 5 steals leader,18PPG

scorer and 7APG PG should be removed for a

2nd round pick that couldn't even get a steal a

game in college and a limited player.

I'm sure I will be dissapointed with JT's 7.5APG

easy assist.lol

Besides what would Reef know about court

awareness anyway?He can't even pass out

of double teams but he's to dumb to realize

this is why he gets so much attention...People

know he will not find a open man of give a

backdoor pass like Karl Malone/Walker/Webber.

He will just force up a shot.

[Guest]

Addition to that JT brings a element to the

team nobody else does...When a play breaks

down or is unsucessful he can make something

happen.Nobody else on the team can do this.

Big Dog=Jump shooter

Shareef='Good post game but inconsisant jumper

and limited passing ability

Dickau=When it gets down to 5 seconds if he is unable

to find a man open he is going to launch a shot.

Jt is close to Marbury but without the "me,me,me"

attitude and that is what prevents SM from being

a top 5 PG.JT isn't selfish in the manner SM is.

When games are tight and you need big baskets

you need guys who can get them.This isn't 1985

man and is sad as the game is today you need

to wake up and look how it works.Miller averaged

10APG and still the team stunk.And don't give me

the "he had no other options"because Person and

Murry both averaged 16PPG and even Ricky Davis

steped up the last 20 games and averaged 20PPG

and guess what....Cleveland STILL lost even with

Davis/Person/Murray all averaging 17PPG.

The NBA NOW is about who can makes plays when

they are needed.THIS is the reason Celtics can win

close games....This is the reason a team as limited

in talent as Orlando can be sucessful can win..

because Tmac can make plays.This is the reason

Seattle made the playoffs.THIS is how the Kings

stayed in the series with the Lakers.IF Bibby had

been looking to be more of a "True PG"they would

not have done aswell as they did.Snow is not a

great passing PG either and neither is Alvin but

Toronto/Boston/Orlando win games because they

have play makers.

Remember two years ago we was down like 15

points to the Washington Wizards in the 4th

and JT proceeded to take hit 4 three's and take

that game over.THAT is what you need in the

NBA today.THAT is what PP and Iverson can

do and that is how they make the playoffs.

Besides I'll take 17PPG/7APG and top 8 in

steals over what Dickau can give us.

I'm sure you will try and bring up guys like

Cassell but like Marbury alot of his problems

is he thinks he's the greatest thing since sliced

bread.You JT's character on Marbury's body and

you have the second best PG in the league.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

Addition to that JT brings a element to the

team nobody else does...When a play breaks

down or is unsucessful he can make something

happen.Nobody else on the team can do this.

Big Dog=Jump shooter

---

You have depicted Big Dog wrong. Big Dog is not just a set shooter as you portray him... Big Dog is a guy with a pullup. That means that he can put the ball on the floor and pullup with the jumper. That ability means that he will be able to make something happen.

In reply to:

---

When games are tight and you need big baskets

you need guys who can get them.This isn't 1985

man and is sad as the game is today you need

to wake up and look how it works

---

I agree, that Jt is a guy who can hit the big shot. NO doubt. But so is Sam Cassell, So is Robert Horry. The statement was not that Dickau is better than JT...

The statement that with his ability to know when the man is going to go, he brings something different to this Hawks team.

Also, you have to believe that Dickau's passing (court Vision) made a big impression on Reef because that's the first thing that Reef mentioned about Dirty Dan.

[Guest]

Big Dog is another turnover machine and I

don't trust him putting the ball on the floor

late in games.

Like I said before,good passing doesn't mean

you are a starter as Brevin Knight is not really

a starter due to other limiations.

I really don't give a damn HOW JT gets assist

as long as he is getting atleast 7APG and we

are winning.

Cassell is not as explosive as JT can be on

offense.As proven in the Dallas/CLeveland

game and againest the Kings and Lakers

two years ago he is a 50 point threat.

I feel JT brings too much of the team including

steals(which he is ranking higher every year)to

remove him for what you would call"uneasy Assist"

it sounds way lame to me.

As often as you try and throw JT as Cassell/SM you

leave out the fact that their arrogance has alot to

do with their problems and he's almost the sole reason

SM isn't a top 3 PG.JT isn't the same way.

No team has won a title in years with pass first PG

anyway.Those times are gone.Sure Stock and Kidd

had a few good runs,but they have came up short.

Detroit/Orlando/Portland/Kings and most of the others

had scoring PG's.In places like Mil and Portland it isn't

about the type of PG's it is about ego's....ditto for

SM.

Reef probably meant Dickau's ability to run the fast

break which I have already stated is a question mark

for JT(atleast in my opinion)as far as alley-oops go

I dunno who you expect to do it.Most of our offensive

players had horrible court awareness themselves in-

cluding Reef a big part of the time.Not to mention

as much as we use Reef in the post it takes away

a ton of assist chances.

I'll use the Boston game again.I believe Vaughn had

14 assist in that game but without JT we had no

guy that could take his game to another level and

we where fighting from behind the whole game.And

Antonie Walker didn't play in that game and the

Celtics were still kicking our asses.

SAR/Big Dog are fine scorers,but they aren't going

to take their game to a higher level often enough.

Having guys like is what allows teams that aren't

as talented to make the playoffs.Sadly for us we

where way too untalented as playing Hanno Mottola

shows.

The old saying is that you never miss something til

it is gone.

I stick by my opinion because I realize you need

guys like JT to play at a higher level.That is what

wins in the league these days no matter if I like

it or not.

But I'm not going to lie I could see JT being traded

in two years but it would without a doubt play a

huge role in me watching games because nobody

on the team is entertaining to watch anyway.

I think Lon wants a more uptempo game and that

doesn't favor JT as a PG...too bad it will fail cause

of the teams lack of atheletic ability and speed

because neither Big Dog or Reef are fast players.

The only player on the roster that benefits from a

uptempo game is Theo.Reef always looks like he

is going to run out of gas when he is running up

and down the court and Big Dog seems lightly

chubby.

Lon wants to turn us into a cheap version of the

Kings.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

I really don't give a damn HOW JT gets assist

as long as he is getting atleast 7APG and we

are winning.

---

Well, the sad truth is that one is dependent on another. You should pay attention to how JT is getting his assists. IF it's by the Easy assist, then it tells you that he's not really running the offense. Ira or Theo or Hendu or CC can complete the easy assists. Moreover, in important games, the first thing that good defensive teams do is cut off the easy assists by clogging up the passing lanes.

You know what that spells? It spells that we show up for the playoffs against New Orleans... and the first thing they do is double SAR and cut off the passing lanes. What we will be left with is turnover, turnover, turnover, and JT dribbles and shoots. Similar to what used to happen to Mookie in Big Games. Chicago would do that to Mookie everytime. Put Pippen on Smitty. Double down in the post and Leave Mookie or Ty Corbin all alone on the perimeter with the passing lanes being covered and Jordan rushing over to double.

But stuff like that rarely works against good PGs. Mark Jackson, Jason Kidd, even Andre Miller never got stuck by defenses because they were able to run the offense and not be controlled by the defense.

So 7 APG is good, but even better is JT running the offense.

[Guest]

But stuff like that rarely works against good PGs. Mark Jackson, Jason Kidd, even Andre Miller never got stuck by defenses because they were able to run the offense and not be controlled by the defense."

that's why two of those three teams lost more than

us eh?Hell if Kidd was still in the west he would still

be losing in the first round.You also have to picture

in Corbin and Mutombos lack of scoring ability but

you wouldn't do that because it doesn't fit your

arguement.Corbin couldn't even get junk baskets

The problem with you is that you always look for

faults in players that you want to get rid of.Our

offense stalls when we feed the ball to Reef...Either

he scores or we get nothing because he can't pass

out of double teams.But you ignore this and act as

if this has no effect when the offense stalls.

I mean damn you tried to find faults in Kobe

Bryant just because you wouldn't want him to

play here.

Why wouldn't people pile on Reef?It isn't like he's

gunna pass out for a open shot.Rasheed Wallace

is the same way.These are reason why these guys

aren't on Malone/Duncan/Webber's level and will

never be.

This is one reason for Millers high assist total.He

doesn't have a post player to feed the ball to and

it doesn't take the ball out of his hands.It's the

reason Payton is starting to average more assist

no more Kemp and Baker hasn't been as effective

as he used to be.

" Chicago would do that to Mookie everytime. Put

Pippen on Smitty. Double down in the post and

Leave Mookie or Ty Corbin all alone on the peri-

meter with the passing lanes being covered and J

ordan rushing over to double."

Those two are simply two of the best defenders

EVER.This is your arguement?Also Mookie was a

jump shooter and wasn't as good as JT.These are

poor arguements.

Oh and when was the last time a true PG won

something again?I'm not talking about last years

leastern conference...I'm talking about a real

accomplishment.

Avery Johnson/Kenny Smith/Derek Fisher/Ron Harper

John Paxston

btw,Mark Jackson was released from the Nuggets.lol

Even if they agree on a buyout Denver wanted no

part of him.Mark Jackson has turned into a journey

man.

[Traceman]

"Easy assists?" I can't possibly think of a more subjective stat. I guess when Theo leads the league in blocked shots, you will say that he is getting the "easy blocks" rather than the hard ones that I'm sure Deke gets. Will Theo get penalized for shooting over 50% because he's taking "easy shots?" I'm sure JT waa in the top 10 in stealbecause he got "easy steals." I mean hey, he didn't man up on his man and take the ball from him, he jumped in the passing lanes.

That is total BS about the offense never getting stagnant with Kidd, Miller or Jackson! The Nets struggled to score in the half court all year and how many great offensive teams have Jackson and Miller been a part of? The Knicks couldn't score with Jackson at PG and Lenny got rid of him in Toronto because he wasn't getting the job done there either. Don't get me wrong, Jackson was a good PG but the offense DID go stagnant with him at PG just as it will with ANYONE a PG at times.

Do you think all of Stockton's assists are "hard assists?" If JT had Malone in his prime to run the pick and roll with, I'm sure his assist numbers would be greater. I'm sure if he was passing the ball to Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Perkins, Wilkes, McAdoo, etc, his assist numbers would have been pretty good. Now that JT has some legitimate offensive weapons around him, I feel that his assist numbers will go up and he will be very good a PG.

Actually, I'm more worried about JT becoming less aggressive in looking for his shot than I am his ability to pass the ball. I just hope he doesn't get so concerned with all these people who say he can't play PG that he tries to pass the ball when he should be taking his man off the dribble and getting us a bucket.

[Guest]

I think I get what Diesel means now.His

basically saying JT can't run plays then be

sucessful at them and just gets his assist

in the flow of the game.

But if I remember right JT runs the pick n

roll VERY well and I believe he did so with

LO lots of times.

Diesel's fear probably is that we are going to

get into tight games and JT will be unable to

run a designed play.However I thought he done

a pretty good job of it the second half of the

season....Could he use more work???Yeah!But

he done pretty well the second half of last year.

Heres the thing JT never really had the right kind

of guys around.Look in his rookie season JR is the

type of guy that likes to have the ball in his hands

and JJ can be that way too...These things didn't

help JT at all.JR and JJ aren't and were not team

players.They need the ball in their hands.

2nd year JT is the only go-to guy on the team.Look

at Dan Dickau's season and you say....Well he got

20PPG to only 4APG but the answer you give is...DD

had to score because nobody else was a legit option.

It's the same thing JT had two years ago.LO could

score some but he was not a second option.JJ got

injured.

Late last season was JT's first chance to play PG

since his rookie season.Atleast give the guy a

legit shot before throwing him in the trash.

[Diesel]

Andre Miller and Mark Jackson are no more responsible for their TEAMS wins as JT for ours?

You are stuck on that huh? You really think that ONE PLAYER is responsible for weather his team wins or Loses?

Take a poll, ask any NBA Fan who is the better PG, JT or Andre Miller? Ask them? It doesn't matter than Miller's team doesn't win.... He's better. BY your logic, I guess Derrick Fisher is ONE HELL OF A PG?

[Diesel]

d?

While think about it this way. IF Dion Glover could have made the same pass in to Reef and watch Reef do all the work to score, then it was an EASY assist. Get IT?

The ones that are not easy are the ones that show that JT knows where the play is going and he knows where the player should be.

Do you still want to claim that you don't know?

Why do you think that PG position is the hardest to learn?? Because the PG must KNOW at all times what all of his teammates are doing.

[Guest]

Oh get real.Fish isn't counted on for production

the way JT/Miller were.That's funny [censored] of a

poor arguement attempt.

"Take a poll, ask any NBA Fan who is the better

PG, JT or Andre Miller?"

Who said Jt was a better PG?Who was the last

pure PG to win a title???

[Guest]

While think about it this way. IF Dion Glover could have made the same pass in to Reef and watch Reef do all the work to score, then it was an EASY assist. Get IT?"

You really think that is how it works?Did you watch

any games the second half of last year?Why did Email

only average 2APG starting at PG?I guess that is how

Bibby averaged 8APG in Vancouver also.

What a bunch of crud.Like I said,you will do anything

you can to get the players out of here you don't like.

You must be a fan of overbloated numbers because

the guy that got the so called easy assist won more

games than the two guys that get"hard assist"

Honestly,I'll take the guy that has wins and that is

what JT was doing as a PG.Miller couldn't get the

wins as a PG and Jackson won less games with

Spree/Houston/Thomas than we did with Shareef

and a bunch of non NBA and no impact players.

Funny NY was a playoff team the year before

Jax was traded there and his true PG abilites

helped get the Knicks out of the playoffs.

We can easily say Miller got alot of assist because

he had high percentage shooters like Wesley Person.

Did we have anyone with shooting touch of Person?

Did we have a legit center like Big Z?

Getting assist means players must be hitting shots.

Who other than Reef could make shots?DJ hit a

woeful 39% and Hanno is a CBA player at best and

Newble flat out is just a dunk basket scorer.

Shouldn't Stoudamire average 15APG when Scottie

doesn't play?

If we are putting up wins and JT is getting 7.5APG

that is all I care about.

Miller just fed the ball to a 49.5% shooting Person

does that make a easy assist?After all,Person would

league our team in FG% by a large margin.

I'll tell you there is a difference between feeding a

39%shooting DJ over a 50% shooting Wesley Person.

Even Reef only shoot 46% from the field and that is

way less than Person.

NOBODY on our team has a consisant jumpshot.NO

BODY.I notice Toni had a rougher time passing the

ball this year than he did two years ago.

Go by how you think Stock has done nothing but

make easy assist every since Jeff Malone was

traded because since then Hornacek has been

the closet thing to a second option that Jazz

had.

Stock+Malone+pick n roll=easy assist.lol

[Guest Walter]

In reply to:

---

"...think about it this way. IF Dion Glover could have made the same pass in to Reef and watch Reef do all the work to score, then it was an EASY assist. Get IT?

---

If you mean by "Reef doing all the work" he did ANY work that cost DG an assist, DG wouldn't get an assist RIGHT!?! What do you mean by "work"? Did Reef actually do "all the work" of shooting the ball? (Gasp.) Maybe he turned around to shot it. (Double gasp.) Maybe he caught it off an alleyhoop. (Triple gasp.)

That's what an assist is! An assist is not A pass that EVENTUALLY leads to a score. It is THE pass that is the proximate CAUSE OF a score. The NBA specifically defines what that is.

So Diesel, what "work" exactly seperates an easy assist from a hard one? What "work" are you speaking of exactly? If it's any type of "work" on the part of the pass' receiver that BY DEFINITION precludes an assist for the passer that means it never was an assist to begin with. So please, what "work" on the part of the receiver makes an assist and easy one? No one can make sense of "does all the work" when the definition of an assist includes doing work and the scorer within a play in which an assist is garnered for another can only do so much "work" within NBA rules or else there isn't an assist.

W

[Diesel]

Maybe just gaurding the Bench?

Anyway,

when I talk about easy assists... Most of the times that I watched JT play PG, he didn't really call plays as the situation commanded, instead, he would make the EASY entry pass to Shareef and Shareef would fake, lean into his man and make the basket or get his man leaning and hit the turn around J. I don't ever think I witnessed JT complete an alley opp. Has anybody else here?

In fact, it was very rare that JT showed Signs that he knew the interworkings of the play they were running. It was like his thought process was this:

JT... " OK, I will throw the ball to Reef while he is on the blocks. Ball comes back." " Alright now I will throw the ball to Dj" Ball Comes back. Do I pass it in to Reef again or do I shoot or do I dribble penetrate.

That's fine but that's the extent of what JT could do. However a good PG, Say Stockton Knows the play. Here's how his mind works:

Stockton.... " we have man coverage with Vlade patrolling the C. Here's what's going on:

1. Karl is High post left, ready to pick and roll off Webber.

2. Deshawn will be coming backside on my dribble.

3. Ostertag is Low Post Right waiting to pick Deshawn's man on my dribble.

4. Donyell is Right Arc waiting for the Kick out.

I will start the pick and roll with Karl and see if we can draw Vlade out on the double. If not, I will rotate the ball around to Marshall. If so, I will see who is the most open between Karl and Deshawn."

There's a real difference between the two. Terry gets his assists mostly on entry passing where SAR does all the work. Stockton or Miller or Kidd gets their assists because they Know what everybody else is supposed to do on a given play. JT has yet to show SIGN 1 to ME that he knows what everybody is supposed to be doing.

My contention is that as the game gets important, teams will just fill the passing lanes, isolate JT with the ball and turn him into Mookie 2.

[Guest]

I'm not saying you're wrong in some aspects of your analysis, but have you ever seen Stockton throw an alley-oop? I don't think I have...who on our team would finish an one? DJ maybe, but he's out now...

I don't think we ahve the athetes to complete that play...and from your analysis, the proper use of Stockton required that the other players know their roles, where and when to rotate etc...do our guys?