Shaeef chats

[Diesel]

I will agree that Stockton doesn't complete many alley opps. You might be able to count them on your hand. But it's evident he knows where people are going to be. I haven't seen JT exhibit that. Could it be coaching? Athlon Sports say that Lon is a terrible Bench coach who hasn't put in offensive plays.

Here is where the area turns gray. Is it Lon or is it JT? The answer comes in guys like BK, JV, and now Dickau. If these guys can run offensive plays better than JT then it's JT. I will say that with these guys there always seemed to be some semblence of offense and I thought that JV and BK were good at running the show. Some would argue that they had a better 2 gaurd... BUT again, it's all a matter of opinion. ONe thing is certain.... Shareef has already remarked that Dickau is bringing a new dimension to the hawks... A Gaurd who has court vision.

[Guest Walter]

In reply to:

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"what "work" exactly seperates an easy assist from a hard one?"

---

I want to know exactly what a pass' receiver and finisher must do for you to count what is otherwise still an assist an "easy" one. Even in your silly analysis you don't suggest that JT AS A PG, averaging 7 APG the last half of the year and 8 APG the last month, wasn't earning his assists like any other Pg. In fact, you single JT out as if he's the only Pg that gets assists like he does when in truth John Stockton is far more the exception in how he gets his assists.

In otherwords, you realize that you cannot credibly argue JT's amount of assists as you have had your lunch handed to you repeatedly on this issue. So, instead you sink to arguing the nature of JT's assists and insist that because the nature of his assists aren't similar to and you IN YOUR SMALL MIND as good as John Stockton's (to Malone) and because he doesn't attempt many alleyhoops that JT is somehow not a good Pg. Truth is there isn't a Pg in the league like Stockton and most would argue that many of those not like him are equally as good if not better, JT got his assists like more of the better Pgs in the NBA got theirs than Stockton gets his, and JT is like Stockton in that he doesn't have an alley-oop finisher to throw to.

Which brings me to the question of who the hell was JT gonna throw an alley-oop to? DJ has never made a cut to the basket without the ball in his life. Kukoc? Nazr? As if alley-oops were important or the lack of them a sign of poor Pg play. You below have conceeded, Stockton doesn't complete them either. Honestly, Gary Payton never compared to Stockton in the mythical category of "knowing where people are going to be", but he's almost or just as good as Stockton as a Pg. I guess Payton can thank all those "easy assists" for his long career.

W

[Guest]

Diesel rants on about guys like Matt Maloney

running the offense and only getting 2APG then

he says JT can't play PG when he averages 7APG.

Nobody is claiming JT is a top 5 PG but he had a

winning record with guys like Hanno seeing court

time and a PF that dissappears after the first half

of games.

Diesel can't handle it cause JT is a prime time player

and his boy Reef is not and never has been nor has

he improved while being in the league 7 years.It's

all about who Diesel wants on the team and who

he doesn't as evidence by the Kobe arguement like

Kobe would take shots away from Big Dog....lol if we

had Kobe who cares about Big Dog in that situation?

And honestly even if Reef meant to say that he

should look in the mirrior and his inabitly to handle

the ball,play defense, and pass out of double teams.

A first option PF with no passing ability out of double

teams is what stalls a offense.This is why guys like

Dice and Reef aren't sucessful at winning in the league

or haven't be so far in their careers.

Notice Karl Malone/Tim Duncan/Charles Barkley are

the sucessful PF's in the league.These are the first

options that win you basketball games.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

he would make the EASY entry pass to Shareef and

Shareef would fake, lean into his man and make the basket or get his man leaning and hit the turn around

.

---

The answer to your question is that it's determined by what JT did and what he thought. If all he did was an entry pass, the assist are EASY. If JT made plays..... i.e. directed the offense or showed some signs that he knew which way the play was going then it's not easy.

What don't you get. IF the assists were not easy, then the scorer would have a much easier time scoring.

That's what the PG is out there to do. To run the offense. An effective PG runs the offense in a manner whereby the scorers never have a hard time scoring. NOT So in JT's case. So when you ask how much work determines "Easy" assists, you have to look at the PG and the scorer. However, an entry pass shows no sign that the PG is running the offense effectively.

[Diesel]

I don't have a problem with JT. BUt JT is What JT is. He's a SG stuck in a PG's body. Maybe he learns to be a PG ala Alvin Williams... But for now, instinctually he's a SG. He's good at being a SG.... BUt he's also a Liability defensively as a SG.

I don't know what your hate about SAR is all about. I've heard you call him average and say that Jermaine Oneal is better?? I think you have some issues you need to work out there. BUT the truth on JT has nothing to do with Shareef. Before Shareef even came here, I told you that JT was a SG. I suggested that the best way to help JT succeed into allstar Success was to go out and get Gary Payton. What's your problem?

[Traceman]

"The answer to your question is that it's determined by what JT did and what he thought."

Can you POSSIBLY come up with a more subjective stat or ridiculous argument? So now, the quality of assists are measured by what the PG THOUGHT before he passed the ball to the scorer? Please! How can you POSSSIBLY measure that?

Then you said:

"IF the assists were not easy, then the scorer would have a much easier time scoring." So now, we're supposed to measure how difficult the shot was before we determine the quality of the assist? So tell me then, does Stockton get more

credit for throwing the ball down in the low post to Malone for the score or for kicking it out to a wide open Hornacek for a 18 foot jumper? Which one was easier? Both were money.

Finally you said:

"An effective PG runs the offense in a manner whereby the scorers never have a hard time scoring."

That is hilarious! If that's the case, why did NJ struggle to score in the half court last season? Based on your definition, I guess Kidd wasn't doing his job.

I understand that a good PG is supposed to run the offense and get players in the right positions to score but that is not the same thing as trying to use that idea to measure the quality of a given assist. An assist is an assist. If JT gets the majority of his assists by drawing the D and then kicking the ball to the open man, that assist is every bit the equal of any other assist.

[Diesel]

In reply to:

---

So now, we're supposed to measure how difficult the shot was before we determine the quality of the assist? So tell me then, does Stockton get more

credit for throwing the ball down in the low post to Malone for the score or for kicking it out to a wide open Hornacek for a 18 foot jumper? Which one was easier? Both were money.

---

Both are difficult. If you watch Stockton, he plays pick and roll with Malone. That means:

1. He has to know when Malone is open and if there is a man coming backside of the play that can stop Malone from scoring.

2. He has to find a passing lane to get the ball to Malone.

When he kicks it out to Horny, that is difficult because 9 times out of 10, he drew the defensive player away.

Lastly, both of those plays tell me that he's aware of what goes on on the floor.

Have you ever watched Magic? No look passes. Cross Court beams that catch Worthy cutting to the basket.

Those aren't easy.

However, did you ever watch O Miller playing for Arkansas. He mastered the long lob. He'd just through the ball as far as he could and his man would catch it and score. If he averaged 5 apg, do you think that he's a great passing C?

Again, if anybody can do it, then it's an easy assist.

[Guest]

Hey Diesel is Hanno Mottola/Mark Strickland/Nazr

Hornacek or Jeff Malone?Hell could anyone on the

roster last year shoot even aswell as Russell?You

are a idiot.

I guess you don't understand how much last years

team really sucked.Get a clue you can't make Hanno

and Mark Strickland good players.There is a reason

these guys will not be in the league this year.

You flat out suck=)

[Guest]

I don't know what your hate about SAR is

all about. I've heard you call him average

and say that Jermaine Oneal is better?? I

think you have some issues you need to

work out there. BUT the truth on JT has

nothing to do with Shareef. Before Shareef

even came here, I told you that JT was a

SG. I suggested that the best way to help

JT succeed into allstar Success was to go

out and get Gary Payton. What's your problem?"

Marshall Faulk-Special players make special plays

This what what seperates JT from SAR.While SAR

racks up stats in the flow of the game.If a special

play is made it is going to be by JT 9 out of 10

times.SAR isn't a the biggest factor when we win.

"He's a SG stuck in a PG's body. Maybe he learns

to be a PG ala Alvin Williams... But for now,

instinctually he's a SG. He's good at being a SG...

. BUt he's also a Liability defensively as a SG."

SAR is a PF traped in a SF's body.He's too undersized

to play PF(Dirk/KG/Webber shoot over him with

ease)but has too inconsisant of a jumper to be a

SF not to mention Jermaine O'Neal raped Reef last

season.

Jt never really had a chance to adapt to PG.Sure he

struggled the first week of the season that year,but

JT was also a slow starter last year at SG aswell.

In fact these were JT's numbers at PG in November:

15.6PPG 43%fg 3.7APG 1.4SPG

He had his worse month in PPG/APG/SPG in his first

month of the season.And he started off slow the

season before...see a pattern developing?

He also had his worst month in blocking AND FT

attempts in November.

All evidence points againest you.

The winning record

THe numbers

The teams improved defense

JT has his best PPG month(21.9PPG) and assist

(7.8APG)in the last freakin month of the season.

Honestly how the hell do you average 7.8APG

with Hanno/Ira having to be scorers???

Oh and btw,Shareef only shot 42% in April and

only averaged his 21PPG he had already had so

that doesn't help your arguement either.

Newble

Dermarr(He still shot his low FG%)

Both had their best scoring months the last

month.I wonder how many APG JT would have

had if Dermarr could have actually shot a decent

FG% last month.You know DJ still doesn't take

the ball to the basket so those baskets had to

come off JT assist because Vaughns minutes were

very limited.

I don't know what you expected JT to do with a

37% SG,a inconsisant center that only cares about

firing his ugly short jumper and a sorry a** supporting

cast.You are truely a idiot.

NOW if JT had a cast like the Hornets or somebody

and failed to do win I'd see your point.You also

factor in your natural PG Tinsley barely got the

most talented team in the east to playoffs

Did you see JT rape your true PG Tinsley for 17

points and 8assist in a victory

]

Tinsley had 4assist and 2 points in that game.

REMEMBER!This is when Indiana was trying to make

the playoffs and your PG not only failed to get the

win but also failed to even have a decent game passing

or scoring.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=220404001

JT also outscored/out assist/out REBOUNDED Reef

and lookie there Nazr/DJ had better games than Reef

had.

Diesel you are a damned fool.

[Guest]

I remember the Indy game very well Thomas yanked

Tinsley early because the way JT was abusing him

in ever phase of the game.

I know it sounds like I hate Reef and perhaps I do

use him as a whiping child too much,but it seems

like you try and slap JT with faults he didn't have

and put Reef over as a top10 player or whatever

when he really wasn't even responsable for our

8 game improvement.

Granted I do like Reef alot AS A PERSON and he

might be the Hawks best talent,but he's not the

best player.Look on the Lakers,Kobe is the most

talented player on that team but Shaq is the better

player.Same can be said for the Kings last year in

the playoffs...Webber is the most talented player

on the team,but Bibby was the best player.

[Traceman]

According to you:

1. JT has to know when Reef is open and if there is a man coming backside of the play that can stop Reef from scoring.

2. He has to find a passing lane to get the ball to Reef.

If he recognizes the situation and executes the play, that is NOT an easy assist.

In addition, when JT kicks it out to Big Dog, and gets an assist, that is going to be difficult because 9 times out of 10, JT will have drawn the defensive player away.

Lastly, when he does those things, that shows JT is aware of what goes on on the floor.

Based on that logic, all JT has to do is be himself and he will get plenty of "difficult assists."

[Diesel]

Hey Hotlanta fan,

Wasn't you the one bragging on Ira's .500 shooting from the field? I've never seen Russell do that?

Also, if the point can get the ball to the player in the right position, it doesn't matter how badly he shoots, he can score. Watch Jason Kidd and see what the Jason Kidd effect on a team really is.

NJ 2001= 42.5% FG, 33.3% 3pts, 92.1 ppg.

NJ 2002= 44.6% FG, 33.8% 3pts, 96.2 ppg.

In 2002, Jason Kidd was added and Marbury taken away. Kidd didn't score more than Marbury did but Kidd's team did. They did better because Kidd is better at getting others the ball. When Marbury was there in NJ and they were one or 2 games better than us recordwise.... I'm sure there were complaints about players around him not being good scorers. Well, La DE Da.

[Guest Walter]

...for it!?! How many of them make the same "easy" entry pass to the team's best player, whom the offense is designed to go through, and don't get BLAMED for it?

Also, I ask again. Why the comparison to Stockton, when he no more resembles the current NBA's Pgs than Magic Johnson (your other example) resembled the Pgs of his day? You also create a whole new "JT-stat" whereby "what JT thought" is somehow computed into whether or not he earns an assist!WTF!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? No one computes "what Shaq is thinking" into his FT percentage! Hell, I can't ever compute what your thinking.

The NBA is comprised of Pgs who make the same "easy" pass to the post assuming they have a player of SAR's caliber to pass to in the post. However, JT is the only Pg that is subject to this mysterious "what JT is thinking" stat?!? If every Pg were subject to this ridiculous "easy" assist stat, regardless of whether or not it was dependent upon the their thoughts at the time of their prospective assist, even Pgs like Stockton would be reevaluated to not be Pgs.

Poor Stockton. He made his career off of many "easy" assists to Malone, another Pf who was the team's best player (arguably) and the offensive certerpiece? How many times has Malone hit that mid range jumper after a pass from the perimeter and a mere step back to clear enough room from the defender and given Stockton an "easy" assist? There was no more to this assist than JT's. In fact, JT's entry pass was harder as SAR was in a position in which he could be double teamed and often Malone was far enough out he couldn't.

You are a farce. I am spending no more time on this.

W

[Guest]

Again Kidd is the best part of the game.

Second so JT is supposed to force DJ to cut

or go to the basket?How do you make a jump

shooter get easy shots when all he wants to

do is stand at the 3 pt line?It's hard to get

somebody easy baskets when they only want

to shoot the 3 cause they are scared of contact.

Your arguements weak...you try and use the best

PG in the game againest JT and it's a silly attempt

you are done,so long,good bye you lost=)

You are trying to win a arguement you can't win.I'm

not always right,but all evidence points to me being

correct and I watched all the games.I never said JT

is the perfect PG and there are guys I'd take over

him.But if we win that is what counts and we won

with him at PG.Get over it.

Write it down in your noted pad and come December

if we are losing and Jt isn't working out a PG then you

can talk your trash.Until then your arguement is weak.

[Diesel]

The point is that this board should be more concerned with JT being able to RUN the offense than just arbitrary Assist numbers. We need a floor General far more than we need a guy who gets assists by entry passes.

You ask how many guys get blamed? It's irrelevant. However, on that list is:

NVE, Marbury, A. Williams, Cassell, etc, etc.

These are guys who have been constantly criticized for not being floor leaders and been criticized for being selfish and more interested in their own stats.

[Diesel]

JT is supposed to direct the offense.

(PERIOD).

IF Dj is standing at the 3 pt line, JT is supposed to bark at him in practice and get in his ear to let him know that the offense will work better if he cuts.

Example...

Mark Jackson vs. Travis Best.... The Austin Croshere Files.

Anybody ever watched the Playoffs when Austin Croshere had big games. You ever notice that most of the time he was doing great things was when Mark Jackson was on the court? I watched a rash of playoff games from the pacers a few days ago and I noticed it but it was never more evident than in one playoff game when Jackson was on the floor directing Croshere and Croshere was getting big points and fly ins.. But I think Mark either got hurt or fouled out and Best had to finish the game. Now, Best hit the game winning (series winning) shot against the Bucks but for 4-5 minutes, there was nothing from Croshere. Best couldn't get Croshere the ball in his spots, nor could he direct the offense. So instead, Best relied on entry passes to Davis and fast breaks and Reggie. But Best was horrid at running the offense. This is probably the reason why Indy still hasn't gotten back to where they were. They didn't have that offensive leadership.

[Guest]

IF Dj is standing at the 3 pt line, JT is supposed

to bark at him in practice and get in his ear to

let him know that the offense will work better if

he cuts."

that doesn't mean he will do it.Hell I'm sure the

Braves bark at Andrew Jones to hit the ball the

other way all the time.Young players don't always

listen now do they?Kwame Brown?Very few guys

"get it"ESP at 21 years old.Get over it.

but if you want to keep forcing lame stuff like that

go right now ahead.but it's like I told you,we will

talk in December.

[Diesel]

Just because they don't get it doesn't mean that JT stops barking? He's supposed to be the offensive General.

Run the Offense. That's what we should want to see... HIM run the offense.

[Guest]

How do you know what he does or doesn't

do in practice...that's right...you don't know.

Nobody buy's any of your crap anywy=)

Remember Stack is a better fit for our team

than Kobe....lol

You are a attention *****=)

[Diesel]

If you're not buying any of my crap, why do you answer all of my posts? You're my #1 fan Hotlantadude. Every one of your posts is a response of mine... (Except the will Smith is slime post). What's the problem? Can't come up with an original Thought? Can't lead a discussion? Or is it that when you speak NOBODY cares?

IF nobody buys any of my crap...

Put my thoughts and your thoughts in a room together and see which ones people stop by to pick up to read the most?

Oh, we already did.