Texas Pete is right...

[sinctybldh]

I am following right in your footsteps. I am still disgusted that we picked him.

[emeans]

The bottomline is that you hate Marvin and will live to regret it. Now if you want to get technical and nit pick we can.

"has very little" versus "nothing" have two totally different meanings. Now if you said "has nothing to do with Summer League" then your contention is correct.

However saying "has very little" implies that Summer League had something to do with your evaulation of Marvin. It may have been a small factor, but "little" means that it had some factor in your evaluation.

Enough of this bickering...you know you were at home smiling when Marvin wasn't playing well in SL and during the 1st half of the season!!!

You will be eating a ton of crow soon enough my friend!!! Keep up the Marvin hate.......

[Diesel]

So now, seeing that you were totally wrong in your first assertion which was that I based anything about Marvin on Summer League. You move on to a more general argument to Augment your first position which was Wrong... or better yet a poorly researched assumption.

Like TP said. Stick to the point.

Marvin has the next 5 to 6 years in some eyes to prove Diesel wrong. That's never been the point. The point is if you're going to say something about me or try to quote me, you better get it right or just keep your trap shut. Is that simple enough?? All day long, you run around spreading NEW LIES... and then instead of fessing up to it, you snippet half of a quote and try to use it out of context?? You are one desperate puppy emeans. However, this thread stands as a monument to just how malicious one person can be. Would you tell a lie on a person, then when called on it, try to cover it up?? You may say no, but this thread says otherwise.

Again, I ask nicely... Research before you blurt out your false assumptions!

-D.

[emeans]

What part of "very little" vs. "nothing" do you not understand.

"very little" means a small amount but nevertheless an amount. Go to webster dictionary if you need to clear that up. How is that an assumption??

So no you are WRONG in that your assertion that your evaluation had "NOTHING" to do with Summer League. It is called comprehension 101!!! Read YOUR statement again.

This is no coverup....I posted exactly what you said and gave you the definition of what it meant. I am sorry you are trying to bend the truth, but then again that is what you do.

From your definition Diesel.....Is there a difference between "very little" and "nothing"? Give me your definition.

[deester11]

Boy do we have split factions on this board. I'm in the "WE-never-should-have-drafted" Shelden camp. I just don't like where we got him. I don't care what he does in Summer Leagues or otherwise, we played the draft worst than everyone save Isiah Thomas and even he may have gotten a steal!

[Seano]

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Boy do we have split factions on this board.

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Well, a lot of Hawks fans weren't terribly pleased with the Shelden pick. I was listening on 790 to the live draft party they had at Phillips Arena, and you should have heard the chorus of boos that rang out after Stern announced that Shelden was our pick. It reminded me of the reaction of Jets fans almost every year at the NFL Draft in response to yet another questionable Jets pick.

I was not totally on board with taking Shelden at 5, *especially* with Roy and Foye both still on the board. It was just a really unusual circumstance, and the whole thing seemed totally unlike the modus operandi that BK had established ever since he's been here. I have NO idea why he telegraphed that pick almost 5 weeks beforehand, I have no idea why a promise was made to Shelden Williams that we'd take him....I find the whole thing just very, very strange, and like I said, pretty unlike the Billy Knight that I knew. That makes me believe that he's probably feeling some heat to get a winner out there ASAP, and in that circumstance taking Shelden, who was perceived as the most NBA-ready player in the draft makes a certain amount of sense for Knight. Having a guy who's ready to go right off the bat can do nothing but help ones job security.

But the fact that we'd telegraphed our pick well beforehand destroyed any kind of trading value that pick had, because everyone knew we were taking Shelden, and therefore no one had any impetus to try and trade up with us to grab Foye or especially Roy. So that part really ticked me off and disappointed me, but whatever.

Like any rookie taken with a high pick, Shelden's got a lot to prove. Hopefully he can do it. I have no doubt that he can be an NBA player, but as to whether we reached too highly for him or whether he was worthy of a top 5 pick, those seem to be the primary issues. And if Roy or Foye blow-up and Shelden becomes just average, then BK is really gonna be the butt of some jokes.

It's going to be fun watching his physical presence in the paint, because he is a bull. But hopefully he becomes something much more than just an enforcer. He's obviously got to get a handle on the foul problems. That's something he also had some trouble with in college. That's not a fatal weakness, as it's something that can be improved upon- but he needs to do that.

[TexasPete]

I feel much better tonight...0 FG's, 5 Fouls, 4To's, 5 Rebounds, yep things are looking up.

[TexasPete]

Seano, good post.

[Seano]

Thank you TexasPete. Good hot sauce.

[Diesel]

Maybe the truth of the matter is that Shelden was the guy we wanted all the time.

Roy wouldn't come to workout for us...

Foye came, we got a look at him and he wasn't what we wanted.

We took the best Big man available because he filled a need.

Now, let's take your for instance.

We took Foye..

OK, we take Foye. We draft Solomon Jones too.

Answer these 3 questions:

1. Where does Foye Play?

you know he's about as much a PG as Salim.

2. Do you make Jones your starter at PF?

When we probably end up resigning AL....

3. Where do we look for interior defense?

I think BK still did the right thing getting the player he wanted and the player that fit our need the most. Had we taken Foye, Foye would have been Salim #2 unless you're planning on trading JJ.

But Most importantly, BK would have put himself in a position where he MUST get a big man. You guys who are for Foye make it sound like we can just go out and get a big man.

WHERE??

IN the last three years, all we have been able to get was Zaza and he was a surprise. We've talked about trading for Chandler or Nene but those guys were gone before we could deal for them. Moreover, Teams know what we have in our cupboards. If we go offering AL, they will ask for Smoove or Marvin. Until we have actually Moved Al for a Big, I don't think you can talk about us getting a big being so easy.

So in essence, if we follow your plan, we come out with the same team we had last year. No defensive interior. No PG. And Foye off the bench...

Yeah... that's what we should have done.

[emeans]

Based on how the draft unfolded for the Atlanta Hawks, Shelden was the best pick at 5. Now if any other big man fell then I would have changed. But the fact that Aldridge and Bargnani were gone, Shelden was the next big man in line to be drafted.

While his numbers are kind of alarming in SL, I still will not give a true evaluation of this pick until the END of the NBA season.

He sucks now, but Marvin sucked to last year too. Now look at Marvin excel!!

[TexasPete]

emeans, its a bad comparison. Marvin was an amazing athlete with huge upside. Shelden was 4 freakin years older. What is so tough to understand here? Shelden is an athletic SLUG who can't just pverpower NBA players. Come on. This Marvin sucked so Shelden can suck talk is ridiculous. Two #1 picks and two totally different situations.

[emeans]

Your points are valid. This is still a major transition, regardless of whether Shelden was a graduate and had 4 years under an elite program under his belt.

Listen I am not saying Shelden won't be a major bust. He just may turn out to be a major bust, but I would hold judgement until the actual NBA season starts and ends.

Then I will flame or praise this pick. Too early right now!!

[Guest]

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Listen I am not saying Shelden won't be a major bust. He just may turn out to be a major bust, but I would hold judgement until the actual NBA season starts and ends.

Then I will flame or praise this pick. Too early right now!!

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EXACTLY! Pete, just cool off on the Shelden bust topics. Let's see him against NBA competition for a little while. Right now you are just beating a dead horse.

[TexasPete]

Alright. I'll give him two more games in the RMR before I bust his arzzz again.

[Seano]

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Maybe the truth of the matter is that Shelden was the guy we wanted all the time.

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Well I would say that was obviously the case, and that's fine. If there's a player you truly believe is the ideal player to fit your situation, then by all means take him. I have no problem with that. The problem I DO have is in telegraphing that choice for all the world to see. Secrecy and disinformation are part of the equation when it comes to drafting players. You don't want everyone else to know exactly what you're going to do beforehand, because that destroys your flexibility and your ability to trade down that pick for teams who might have wanted to move up to 5, thinking they might need to do so in order to ensure themselves of getting Roy or Foye- two players might I remind you who were more well-regarded than Shelden was entering the draft.

So in that regard, it's a very valid question to ask whether BK truly got full value for that pick. Hopefully Shelden blows up and makes that all moot, but as of right now you really have to wonder (and that has NOTHING to do with Shelden's current struggles in the summer league- I could care less about that topic and think it's a meaningless one at this exceptionally early stage of the process).

[Diesel]

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The problem I DO have is in telegraphing that choice for all the world to see.

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I don't think there was a telegraphing going on. I don't remember anybody from the Hawks organization coming out and saying.. we want Shelden...

I think what did happen was that some reporters thought of the most likely case scenerio, printed it, and the rest of the media propagated it.

So do you think that Toronto telegraphed their pick of Bargnani?

Do you think that if we traded Al and get Foster, Tinsley, and a first that we telegraphed that move too?? It's been in print..

Or if Iverson ends up in Atlanta that we telegraphed that too??

The point is that sometimes the reporters who use these "unnamed source" get lucky!

But let's say it wasn't the reporters luck... Let's say BK said something off the record...

What difference does it really make?

The only team willing to make a deal with us was Houston... Boston wasn't willing because they were going to take Shelden too. If you're mad that Shelden closed out his workouts, you must be equally mad that Roy closed out his...

Roy snubbed Charlotte and Atlanta. If BK asked Shelden to close down his workout, it was probably because he knew that one of those teams with nothing to lose (Chicago, Charlotte) could probably draft Shelden and hold him as a hostage until we gave up one of our other players...like Chillz. If a team feels comfortable enough with the talent, they will take a player that may duplicate their talent if they know a team below them wants him.

I say that we got what we wanted out of the draft, there's no need to cry any longer...

Becuase it could have worked out that Charlotte took Shelden and held him up from us for Chillz and the pick?

[TexasPete]

No team ahead of us was going to take Shelden Williams. Boston wasn't taking him either. They have young forwards already...they really wanted Ai and saw Foye as a possible chip to get him. Danny didn't think Foye was going to be there at #7 so he went out and got Telfair. He wanted a PG...ended up with 2 of them in ST and Rondo. Shelden wasn't top 5 discussion. He was some elaborate fantasy in Knight's mind.

[Diesel]

You said that Foye wouldn't be there at 7th???

Who did they figure to drop out of the top 6?? Roy?

Here's how somebody else saw that same trade:

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Boston has been searching for a true point guard and wasn't overwhelmed by the choices that it may have at No. 7. The Celtics worked out Connecticut's Marcus Williams, Kentucky's Rajon Rondo and Villanova's Randy Foye on Monday. All three could be available at No. 7. But the Celtics brass decided that Telfair, two years into the league, was better suited for the Celtics' system at this juncture in his career.

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Boston is the second team on record (Atlanta being the other) who saw Foye up close and were not impressed by his PGing Skills. Boston elected to get a real PG in trade, we decided to get one in FAcy.

That's the bottom line.

[Diesel]

One more quote (Boston Herald)

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As a result, Telfair is very much a work in progress, a player with just as many, if not more, questions attached to his game now than when the Blazers drafted the celebrated Brooklyn high school player in 2004.

And that’s exactly how far back C’s coach Doc Rivers thought yesterday to come up with a point of reference.

“I don’t know what they could or couldn’t take advantage of with him in Portland,” Rivers said. “But I saw him in high school, in a game that was built to be a one-on-one game, and he did a great job of making it about his team.

“The second time I saw him was his rookie year in Portland, and when they put him in, he turned the game around. I just loved his quickness. We’re in a league now where they don’t allow much contact above the free throw line, and I think those rules are really going to help him a lot.”

For a young player who was pitched as a star before he even reached high school, and received his first recruiting letter in the sixth grade, the change of scenery also may ease some of the pressure that now follows Telfair to a new city at the age of 21.

“If I have any concerns, it’s that he’s been under a lot of (scrutiny) from a young age,” C’s director of basketball operations Danny Ainge said. “Living up to unfair and unrealistic expectations is a concern. I’m not sure that I’d wish that kind of notoriety and that kind of exposure on my children. He’s had a lot to deal with. But that will make him stronger.”

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