Confusing Logic. Need Help.

[Guest Walter]

Why would anyone want to change both the coach (firing) for AND the players (trading) on this team NOW when that same person blames the coach for everything bad about this team's play?

You can't withhold responsibility from players, then punish them, and expect your actions to resemble consistent logic.

W

[Guest]

Well part of the reason Lon has to go is simply

because the players are not listening...They

don't understand....They should..but they don't...

SO LON HAS TO GO.

[Guest]

and the second is that when GRob is playing, the rest of the team appears to just stand around and watch.

Personally, I think that Lon's getting a raw deal. I'm not saying he's the best coach in the league, but imo, this team would be much better with someone else (slightly above average) in GRob's place.

However, you can't fire the players...but you can fire the coach. Perhaps a more fiery coach (aka Fratello or someone of that ilk) can unite the team. I'm not particularly in favor of changing coaches midseason....but I dont' know that we can trade the cancer, so that leaves only the coach as a possibility.

If you could trade GRob and get someone like Jones to replace him, I'd be all for keeping Lon, giving him his run to see what he can really do. but if the players are really not even listening (aka Reef's comments about their not even running Lon's sets against the Pacers), then Lon is the easy/ only answer.

[Guest]

Alot of it is LOns fault...Just not all...But how is he

getting the raw deal?What has he accomplished in

his tenure as a Hawk?He got Dermarr to average

8PPG...Nothing special....

He has only had one month of a winning record

as a coach.Nearly any coach that has coached

for 3 seasons can say they have had more than

1 month with a winning record.

Lon has done nothing to deserve his job.But he

does get blamed for EVERYTHING....When it;s

not all him....But it's enough to get rid of him.

[hds428]

Weaseldom pretty much took the words right outta my mouth. If the team is going to the press as Reef supposedly did (I did'nt see what he said on ESPN) to whine about the coach, nothing good can come out of that. If these grown men can't find something resembling motivation within themselves, something has to happen. If a group of college educated professionals can't execute a gameplan for a children's game, something is seriously wrong. The sad reality is that the coach will get railroaded even if it's the players who are choosing to get rolled and then whine and complain like bottlefed millionaires because nothing is ever their fault.

[Diesel]

Going into the venture... It was known that college coaches don't work in the pro game.

My theory is that the college coach is used to having moldable talent and he can mold that talent to fit into his system. Whereas the pro coach is use to have talent and he is use to fitting his system around the talent that he has. And I'm right. Look at what happened with PJ... He being a screamer got upset with Spreewell and tried to treat him like some wide eyed 18 yr old .... Spree being an allstar choked the [censored] out of him and that was that. Even though Spree was villified, it hasn't happened again with him.

The problem was that college coaching doesn't often get a chance to run across already molded talent. So it's hard to learn how to take a player who already is specialized and find room for him in "your" system. Look at Phil Jackson. He likes Big Guards. He likes SGs who can score and he really doesn't have great use for a Jason Kidd like PG. He has a system and he goes out and gets the talent he needs for it. Look at Nellie. Give him Pat Ewing, LJ, Oakley, Charles Smith, John Starks, and a Bunch of Physical thugs and he can win. Then Give him Dirk, Finley, Nash, and a bunch of finesse guys and he can win. Reason being is that Nellie knows how to coach talent.

But then you find Lon... Trying to make Grob a Point Forward. Trying to be successful with SAR out of the post. Trying to allow JT to play the SG from the PG position. It's a plan only a College coach would try because you go away from the strengths of the players. And the results show up on the court.

Now Lon has lost the ship. No longer do the players listen to Lon but they are trying to find out their own way of doing it. Lon has NO Control... Time to end the Science project.

[hds428]

Still, in my heart I believe there's nothing wrong with this team that chemistry won't fix. Reef, JT, and Ira still don't look like they know how to play with Theo and GRob on the floor, and likewise Theo and GRob are noticably not fitting in. Shareef is slacking on defense badly because he expects Theo to be there, Theo tries to compensate and gets into foul trouble. Theo called it early this month:"I know we don't have guys that have been defensive-minded guys throughout their careers," Ratliff said. "At the same time, everybody is going to have to step up and get that defensive mentality. It's about guys digging down deep inside and figuring out we're not going to win games without playing strong defense. Right now, it's not that way." And Ira punctuated it:"I don't think it's coaching at all," Newble said. "You can't put that on the coach at all. [The players] have got to fight. We've got to scrap. We've got to box out. We've got to get rebounds. We've got to play defense." There's also no established pecking order, as Mike Lee pointed out; "The Hawks are 6-2 when Abdur-Rahim leads or ties for the team lead in scoring.... Glenn Robinson has willed the team to five wins when he leads or ties in scoring, but the Hawks also have lost seven games when the "Big Dog" is top dog. After that, the Hawks are 0-4 when Jason Terry does the trick, and Dion Glover was top point-scorer in two blowout losses. Added up, that's 5-13." But still at the end of games there's confusion and noone really seems to want the ball. "We want 'Reef to get the first look down," Hawks coach Lon Kruger said. "The core of what we need to do is 'Reef on the block." So much for Kruger taking Reef off the block, usually it looks more like Reef taking himself off the block to set a screen or take a jumper on that gawdawful defacto reverse play they go to when the pick breaks down. But I'm with you, the science project has got to stop, this team has changed significantly every year since Lenny was fired, players and coaches. Its time to give these guys something resembling consistency, on the court and on the sidelines. I really think a midseason coaching change will do more harm than good, especially in terms of making the playoffs. In the offseason the gloves are off, but midseason coaching change type teams don't make the playoffs. If this team does make the playoffs, there may still be valid reasons to change coaches in the offseason, and if they don't make it Lon will have had enough rope to have hung himself with and the move becomes more obvious.

[Guest Walter]

I don't get how you can thuroughly blame Lon and then suggest player trade after player trade. If the players are so not responsible then why always try changing them? Is it that you are just making forum conversation? Curious.

BTW, I don't think Nellie's short stint in NY is an example of "winning". Moreover Phil Jackson and the Lakers have a worse record than we do.

W

[TheDude]

nobody should be expecting anyone to cover them..play hard all the time...

but lon has to go...he's not using big dog the right way..don't blame it on big dog...we asked him to get more assists and rebounds and he's done that..if we had an inspiring coach, he'd make sure big dog played some d.. he's not a cancer.every player likes him...

if you still think it's his d that's causing the entire team not to do well, check the guy's stats who he is guarding.. one man's d isn't the whole teams.. and the team likes glenn so it's not cancer like in rider..

[Diesel]

Lon is the Blame and that's 100% correct.

The trade suggestion was one that would make us a different (not better) team.

Trading Big Dog for Jones Would make us different. Different in that we would be defensive. However, what we lose is good scoring and rebounding. I think with Big Dog, we are more balanced. With Jones we are more defensive.

So for instance. IF I knew we were bringing in Van Gundy Jan 1... I would probably think about keeping Big Dog. Reason being is that Van Gundy will make a strong team defense. However, offensively, it would be good for Van Gundy to have many weapons so that we are not clods. However, if we were to go with a guy like say Fratello. Fratello is a good enough X and O guy that having multiple 20 ppg scorers is not neccessary. He's going to define 1 guy as the goto guy anyway and build around him. I think that goto guy would be Reef and Jones would be a great 3 pt option along with Terry on offense and defensively, Jones would provide everything we need.

Who could score easily against Jones, Ira, Theo??

[Diesel]

Long Ago, I told you that Theo won't make much difference defensively because we don't have a defensive team. I also said that Theo would be a foul magnet with our current roster.

I was criticized for wanting to trade Theo, however, I was right. I only wish we could have gotten a guy like Khandi in exchange for Theo. [censored] Battier/Lo sounds good too. The point is that our team is built for offense.

Now the problem is just like you said. Chemistry. The biggest problem is that LON hasn't defined roles. That's why you see such a dropoff in Reef. Last yr, Reef had to do it all so it was no question and Toni was a pretty good add on player for Reef because Toni knew when to take over but for the most part allowed Reef to be the captain.

However, this yr we start off with Big Dog scoring 30 three straight games. You'd think Big Dog was the new focus of the offense. BUT he's not. Lon has no definition to his offense. Some nights it's Big Dog. Some nights it's SAR. Some nights it's Theo... [censored] this won't work. Because everybody looks to everybody else to do it and they don't do it because they don't know what to do. The same thing happened in the Rebounding category. Last yr, Reef Rebounded mainly because he had to. Now, Big Dog Rebounds, Theo Rebounds, but Nobody is working hard at it because of the belief that "the other guy got it". Bad Planning Lon. Ends up that Nobody gets it and that's because Lon hasn't defined... So a lot of chemistry problems would clear up with a better coach. One who defines Roles and is good with the X's and O's and definitely one who can make adjustments. I think Fratello is that man. As far as Motivation... We should have never gotten rid of Mahorn... Shame on Lon. Lon must go.

[hds428]

Actually I'm thinking it's Muss we should'nt have let get away, but that also goes into chemistry, too many new faces on the sideline year after year. Theo is a difference maker, when he's not in foul trouble for trying to pick up Reef's slack, he's a factor in the wins, plus he rebounds at the same pace as Reef with ten fewer minutes average. If Theo were'nt in the paint our interior D would look worse than it already does. Our team may be built for offense but as the Kings and Mavs have shown, you need some semblance of defense to get key stops and wins. Theo can't do that because he's pulled off his game and forced to guard two and three guys to make up for the defensive void left by Reef and Big Dog, thus hes on the pine in foul trouble when the stops are needed. Theo would'nt get so many fouls if Reef showed a little effort, especially on his own man in the paint. Last year Reef did have to do it all, but it's alarming to me how quickly he just let it go because he assumes that 'the other guy got it'. That to me is not the sign of a team player. Looking for help in the paint is fine, but expecting your teammate to cover your man and his is pathetic. So unless Lon is coaching Reef and Big Dog and them only to neglect their D, then it's bad planning Pete. I agree that roles need to be defined, if not by the coaches then by the players. The players can decide on the court who the goto guy is, but they are'nt. If the coaches can't do it and neither can the players, then the players are as guilty for performing badly on the court as the coaches are on the sidelines.