Why are we talking about tanking so much?

[CBAreject]

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Being bottom 5 or 10 as you are saying still says to me that he is a complete idiot at drafting, and GM'ing altogether.

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Just wow. The "Hawks are bottom 5 or 10" part was simply an illustration of my point (since you clearly needed illustration). It wasn't meant to support whether BK was a good drafter.

BUT GUESS WHAT! You MISSED MY POINT! I basically told you that you would, so I'm not surprised.

[Guest Walter]

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I agree about SJ and Batista, we need to play them MINIMUM 20 mpg apiece. I at least want to play Speedy some just so he can gain some chemistry with this team, but he should sit until 100% healthy.

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As long as we at least get rid of Lue I'm not against playing Speedy some SHOULD he become healthy. Just don't run him into the ground to eek out an extra win or two. Play him no more than 24 MPG or else he'll break into million pieces.

Tanking starts with little things management decides. If management's first wave of moves don't work well enough you consider other options (you can go too far). We MUST start that first option soon with JS back or else BK will be getting the key to Pheonix.

W

[AtLaS]

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Being bottom 5 or 10 as you are saying still says to me that he is a complete idiot at drafting, and GM'ing altogether.

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Just wow. The "Hawks are bottom 5 or 10" part was simply an illustration of my point (since you clearly needed illustration). It wasn't meant to support whether BK was a good drafter.

BUT GUESS WHAT! You MISSED MY POINT! I basically told you that you would, so I'm not surprised.

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Dude I got your point. Whether or not you can comprehend that or not is beyond me.

You obviously didn't get any of my points either, since you can't reply to anything other than the way you said you feel about BK, which actually has NOTHING to do with this topic.

I don't care how you feel about BK thats your opinion. Why don't you reply to the things that are actually relevant to the topic, instead of making some childish remarks about me not understanding what you said about BK. I got it, you aren't a BK fan, but he's not an "idiot" at drafting. I disagree and think he is a complete idiot at drafting and GM'ing in general, let's stop it there. This thread was not made to be a BK discussion.

[Guest Walter]

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lmao, you think JJ is that stupid? Players are not that stupid, and this isn't as easy as you say it is. I wouldn't mind tanking, but not if it costs us our players hating the franchise.

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I agree that players may very well "hate the franchise" should they feel betrayed, lied to, misled, or mishandled. Your concerns aren't so much about JJ "minding tanking" as they are about not being straight forward to him.

I don't personally believe management should lie to or mislead the players. They should be very candid while also beggining the discussion (yes a discussion) by stating alot of affirmative comments. Basically, once you get heads nodding, studies have shown they often continue to do so. We'll term it "affirmative inertia".

If you are going to do this you must first recommit to the majority of the players, those you want to add a final major piece to and build around. For example you pull JC, JS, MW, JJ, SW even,...maybe ZaZa and Speedy, aside in a small group. Management states:

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"Our desire is for this franchise to reach competitive heights the likes of which it's never reached before. To meet this lofty goal we believe more talent, at the C and Pg positions, will be needed. As a result of management error, you do not have the star-quality or better center necessary as a catalyst to allow you young men to reach your individual and group potential. We intend to get you that player at center and the help at Pg you deserve.

We have examined every possibility and have come to the decision that we will begin retooling this team right now! We do so for two reasons. First and foremost, due to our injury riddled season, we anticipate the potential to retain our top 3 protected pick in this very strong, center laden draft. Secondly, we consider some members of the team that are currently not here and whom we have already spoken to about this issue (i.e. Lue...must tell Lue first and ask where he would prefer to be traded to, this should be presented as an opportunity for him) better suited playing elsewhere due to our desire to examine several prospects within the team and potentially those outside it.

For some of your there may also be a short-term concession. Some of you are struggling through injuries. Others play a league high number of MPG. In these cases we may consider a reduction in minutes. Some of you have earned a chance to demonstrate what you can do with playing time and responsibility. In these cases we may consider an increase in minutes and an expansion of role.

Let us be very clear. Your job does not change! You are paid to be professionals and competitors. It is likely that the very decisions we make will set the odds against you for the remainder of the season. However, gladiators do not fall on their swords when odds are set against them. They fight! And that is what we mean for you to do. Compete like you have always done. While no opportunity is certain, we firmly believe that our decisions will create the best opportunity for us to to get you the help you need and deserve and to contend at the highest level in the coming years with the best this league has to offer.

We will regularly keep you informed individually and as a group. Dominique or I are always available for you to voice your concerns to or to answer your questions about this team's way forward. We have come to you not only as a courtesy but because we see you as part of the Atlanta Hawk family. Not all the decisions a family makes are thought of favorably by everyone, but we should remember we are a family and each of you should remember you are are professionals. Should you be offended or concerned by anything we have said or decide, we ask that you discuss this with us, remain professional, expect the utmost respect for your concerns and you personally and professionally, and most importantly take it out on the opposition.

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You have an additional whole team meeting. This may alienate a player like ZaZa (with the talk of getting a new center and all). You have to accept this possibility while attempting to reassure ZaZa. What you see his role being regardless of the outcome. Your appreciation of and devotion to him as a player and person despite your assessment of what the team needs and how the franchise can acquire it. You do what you can about this but obviously you can't acquiesce as say "We're sorry ZaZa. You're our starting center of the future."

Anyhow, you can avoid hurting JJ's and just about any player's feelings by treating him or they with the proper dignity and respect. You as management have made your decision, but by being professional in delivering it you get a professional receiving it. Regardless, after Oden or Thabeet are on board, you have 11 elated Hawks who will selectively recall, "what tank?".

W

[AtLaS]

As much as I would LOVE Oden or even Thabeet, I just can't see that working. It just seems unprofessional (although you said it respectfully), especially this early in the year. If it's later in the year and we are definately out of the playoffs is a different story. That's pretty much what ORL did with T-Mac, they just sat him for the last 15-20 games, and it definately worked.

As you stated, Zaza wouldn't take to that argument very well. And not only him, you are basically telling the team that they aren't good enough to win, and being young they need all the confidence they can get, especially winning confidence. IMO this would kill their confidence more than ever.

But I do agree that the players would want help and would love to have a dominant center, but it's just unlikely. Oden will definately be a good center, Thabeet is a stretch but I still think he will be good. EVEN IF we have the WORST record (which is unlikely), we still only have a 25% chance at Oden IF he comes out.

But my biggest worry is if we did tank, and got the 4 or 5 pick. What do you say to the players then? IMO that would quite possibly be the worst thing to EVER happen to this franchise, and could even spark some "lets move the team" talk. Especially since you have basically already told the team they aren't good enough, so what would you say then?

[Guest Walter]

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As much as I would LOVE Oden or even Thabeet, I just can't see that working. It just seems unprofessional (although you said it respectfully), especially this early in the year.

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It would be even more unprofessional to not do everything in your power as GM to build a contender. It may seem distasteful, but it's definately professional.

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If it's later in the year and we are definately out of the playoffs is a different story.

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To late by then. We're not a team without talent. If we wait on this we'll end up with 3-4 more meaningless wins than the tank opposition. Too late then.

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That's pretty much what ORL did with T-Mac, they just sat him for the last 15-20 games, and it definately worked.

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With Bobby Sura's and Stephen Jackson's help it worked.

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As you stated, Zaza wouldn't take to that argument very well. And not only him, you are basically telling the team that they aren't good enough to win, and being young they need all the confidence they can get, especially winning confidence.

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1) I can't worry more about ZaZa than this franchise. I know ZaZa left Milwaulkee due to being the 3rd string center. I know he wanted more opportunity. I hope he realizes as decent as he is he's in over his head a little as a full-time starter. If he wants to be on a contender, he'll likely be a primary BU on a contender and not a starter.

2) This team isn't good enough to win ANYTHING OF IMPORTANCE. I don't think that's news to JJ or anyone else. Better to be straight with them than tell them fairy tales that d@mn the franchise. Their men. They'll handle the truth and either take it out on the opposition or accept it, even appreciate you for it.

3) They need talent at the center position. That's what they need and they all all know it. You mentioned the players are smart. You don't think they know that? A dominate 7+'er behind them makes each and every individual and the team not only more confident but better.

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But I do agree that the players would want help and would love to have a dominant center, but it's just unlikely. Oden will definately be a good center, Thabeet is a stretch but I still think he will be good. EVEN IF we have the WORST record (which is unlikely), we still only have a 25% chance at Oden IF he comes out.

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Mind you, if you haven't seen Durant you should. He is the absolute truth. No MW UNC-hype bogus fairy dust on him. He's real and real sick. His stats are out of this world incredible. While I want a center out of this, if I pick 2nd I might be getting the biggest prize. Sure, moves would have to be made, but that's after the fact. I have alot of faith in Thabeet as a Deke clone. Oden is, well Oden good.

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But my biggest worry is if we did tank, and got the 4 or 5 pick. What do you say to the players then?

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The same thing you would say to them if we didn't tank and gave Pheonix the 7th pick. "You guys played hard, competed, did your job. We didn't do ours. We let you down." The player's role in this doesn't change. It's management's decision and they own it. You still have to get your center so just as if you hadn't tried to tank, all available moves are on the table. Of course, tank or no tank, this ownership is not going to spend its way out of any mess. In otherwords, tanking isn't just about being the best option, it's the ONLY option currently for this franchise.

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IMO that would quite possibly be the worst thing to EVER happen to this franchise, and could even spark some "lets move the team" talk.

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You're are trying to make the best thing that could ever happen to this franchise happen. You can't control past the 50/50 odds of keeping a top 3 pick if you finish bottom 3. You control what you can, but otherwise what do you do? You were going to give up the 7th pick in the draft anyhow. Just because it's the 5th instead you go mental? Just don't see it. Fear of failure due to circumstances I cannot control is not going to stop me from trying the best and ONLY option available to significantly improve this franchise. I CAN control how well we tank. Do that well and that's all you can ask for.

I can't give you magic, feel good answers here. This is a comparison between a significantly less likely feel-good yet empty proposition and a significantly more likely distasteful yet potentially franchise uplifting proposition. If you like corn syrup then you go for the former, potentially get your little sugar high, and then soundly crash for hours (or years in the case of the Hawks winning a few meeaningless games). If you like the returns on a well balanced diet, as disgusting as that menu sounds, you eat your 5 vegetables a day and the evidence shows you live better and longer. This franchise needs to eat right for once!

W

[AtLaS]

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It would be even more unprofessional to not do everything in your power as GM to build a contender. It may seem distasteful, but it's definately professional.

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Professional?? How is telling your players to lose with 50 games left in the season professional??

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1) I can't worry more about ZaZa than this franchise. I know ZaZa left Milwaulkee due to being the 3rd string center. I know he wanted more opportunity. I hope he realizes as decent as he is he's in over his head a little as a full-time starter. If he wants to be on a contender, he'll likely be a primary BU on a contender and not a starter.

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I realize this and I'm sure he realizes he isn't a great center, but you are telling Zaza, "Hey I don't want you to play well for the last FIFTY games of the season because we need a good draft pick to replace you." Although you say it differently, he will take it as that.

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2) This team isn't good enough to win ANYTHING OF IMPORTANCE. I don't think that's news to JJ or anyone else. Better to be straight with them than tell them fairy tales that damn the franchise. Their men. They'll handle the truth and either take it out on the opposition or accept it, even appreciate you for it.

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I (unlike you) actually believe that our team is MUCH better than you are giving them credit for, and much better than our record. Just look how competitive we were with minimal injuries (coincidence Marvin was out?), we are still the youngest team in the league, and this is when our team still had no chemistry and probably the worst coach in basketball. We will improve DRASTICALLY, none of our young players (save JJ) are in or are even close to their primes. I think telling them to stop trying to win would prove more detrimental to the franchise then letting them play to win, especially considering even IF we are the WORST team (which is next to impossible), we STILL only have a 25% shot at Oden. AND considering we have 50 games left! You just can't throw away a whole season with those odds. Say we have the 3rd worst record, what is that, like a 10% chance at Oden? Not worth it.

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3) They need talent at the center position. That's what they need and they all all know it. You mentioned the players are smart. You don't think they know that? A dominate 7+'er behind them makes each and every individual and the team not only more confident but better.

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I do agree with this, COMPLETELY, but I doubt any of them would be willing to throw the final 50 games in order to get a 25% chance at Oden, IF we have the WORST record. Or worst case Durant who will be brought in to replace one of them.

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Mind you, if you haven't seen Durant you should. He is the absolute truth. No MW UNC-hype bogus fairy dust on him. He's real and real sick. His stats are out of this world incredible. While I want a center out of this, if I pick 2nd I might be getting the biggest prize. Sure, moves would have to be made, but that's after the fact. I have alot of faith in Thabeet as a Deke clone. Oden is, well Oden good.

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I'll admit I haven't seen much of Durant other than Sportscenter, but I believe the hype, and I've heard plenty about him and seen the stats. All I know is that if we tanked and got Durant, he DAMN WELL better be the next great SF. However, if we got the #1, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if BK took Durant over Oden because his stats were better or something. BK just seems ENAMOURED with finding a great SF.

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The same thing you would say to them if we didn't tank and gave Pheonix the 7th pick. "You guys played hard, competed, did your job.

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LMAO at you did your job.. they LOST! That's not doing their job, especially if there is no reward for it.

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You were going to give up the 7th pick in the draft anyhow. Just because it's the 5th instead you go mental? Just don't see it.

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I for one KNOW we are a much better team than the 7th pick overall. Besides its not the fact that we gave them the 7 instead of 5, it's the fact that you told them to lose on purpose and still getting no reward from it, other than more laughs from the national media. And then coming out the next season (AFTER you told them they weren't good enough) and encouraging them to do well. If that's not the definition of unprofessional, I don't know what is.

You seem to not understand that you don't have to have a DOMINANT big man to win a ship, just a good team with a bunch of good players. Dallas almost won with Dampier signed to a near max deal! They have Dirk but he's hardly an inside presence, offensively or defensively. You need a good all around team with good chemistry, a good coach, and a goto scorer with a decent pg. We have one. A dominant big always helps and would DEFINATELY help, but it is not the RULE for a title.