Trae/Murray/Roster

[supermariowest]

I contributed to the derailment of the insider thread via the Trae/Murray/general-roster-building discussion. Let’s bring that discussion here. 

One of the two PGs will hopefully be on the move this summer. Which do you move and what return do you expect? What other trades/signings/picks do you make to fill out the roster? Keeping feasibility of trades and LT implications in mind, specifically name your first and second units for the 2024-2025 season.

Also note the question isn’t simply which PG is better. Consider their contracts, their trade values, and the LT/aprons. How do you build a winner from here? I’m hoping somebody can lay out a blueprint for the FO. 

[Gray Mule]

Current Hawks roster lists three point guards, Kobe Bufkin, Dejounte Murray and Trae Young.  Last trade season there was talk between the New Orleans Pelicans and the Atlanta Hawks.  The Pelicans wanted one of our PGs.  Murray was the target because of his proven record on defense and his reasonable contract.  

The Pelicans venture into the playoffs proved to everyone how much they need Murray.  I expect these talks to resume when the trade season reopens.  What will they offer in return?

Trae Young has a couple of teams that may want to trade for him and his great offensive talent.

Having the #1 draft pick, more than enough Point Guards and others that will surely be available in the trade mart means that this will be an exciting off-season.  Something is bound to happen!

[macdaddy]

You trade DJ without question.  Trae is a top 10 player in the league.  You don't trade that.  We haven't had that in ages.  It's hard to come by. 

DJ will be a good PG on a team that has 2 all stars if he can find that situation.  He hasn't been on a winning team in his career and the Hawks haven't been a winning team since he got here.  Now that's not all his fault but his not not partly his fault. 

Add shooting and D around Trae and IMPORTANTLY off the bench and we'll be good.   I'd love to add an all star front court player but we may just have to see if Jalen becomes that.  

[JayBirdHawk]

Similar thread here.

[Afro]

12 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

You trade DJ without question.  Trae is a top 10 player in the league.  You don't trade that.  We haven't had that in ages.  It's hard to come by. 

DJ will be a good PG on a team that has 2 all stars if he can find that situation.  He hasn't been on a winning team in his career and the Hawks haven't been a winning team since he got here.  Now that's not all his fault but his not not partly his fault. 

Add shooting and D around Trae and IMPORTANTLY off the bench and we'll be good.   I'd love to add an all star front court player but we may just have to see if Jalen becomes that.  

Egg-zactly.

I hate to keep beating this same drum.....but Trae has won before? DJM hasn't done anything really in 7 seasons? What are we doing here lol. Some people just need to say they hate him for his haircut so we can move on. 

Plus, Trae won with a roster that really isnt all that difficult to replace. It's not like he made the ECF with a bunch of superstars we can't afford anymore. Just a bunch of quality role players who could play team defense and hit shots. That's not that hard to build lol. 

Also, that run wasn't a fluke. Hawks beat a decent and healthy Knicks team. Beat the Sixers with a functioning Embiid(as much as he ever is in the offs) and a Ben Simmons who was still elite. Went toe to toe with the Bucks. That wasn't a mickey mouse run. Trae really did that shit. 

Im gonna keep saying this until people acknowledge it and stop with this "how do you compete with Trae"? BS. Tyler Jones says it best. The problem never was Trae. The problem is the Hawks had no idea why that team was good.....and its been years and they STILL dont know why that roster was good. 

 

Asking a front office that cant put a minimumly competitive roster around a superstar.....to build a roster without said superstar.....is stupid as hell lol. 

Edited June 11 by Afro

[JayBirdHawk]

52 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Also, let's talk about the Hawks and not just DJM.  

In the 22-23 season:

The highest OffRtg occurs with Trae ON and DJM OFF in over 900 total minutes.  DJM ON and Trae OFF has the lowest OffRtg.  Also has a significantly lesser NetRtg.  

 

In the 23-24 season:

Once again, the highest OffRtg is Trae ON and DJM OFF at 122.1 pts / 100.  DJM ON and Trae off is 2nd at 119 which isn't too bad.  But look at the NetRtg.  Trae ON and DJM OFF is +3.47 this season.  DJM ON and Trae OFF is -0.56.  

Over the course of the entire 2 seasons together:

Trae leads Hawks to 120.59 OffRtg and a +2.78 NetRtg while DJM leads them to 117.31 OffRtg and a -1.12 NetRtg.  

If you want data to show your position is ridiculous, look no further than this.  DJM isn't leading the Hawks to be just as good or "slightly less than" Trae.  Only when Trae is ON and DJM OFF do the Hawks have a positive NetRtg in about 1700 minutes of play.  

 

Just posting @REHawksFan  'Team Numbers' here.

[REHawksFan]

To use the current best team as an example, DJ is a Derrick White / Jrue Holiday type role player on an elite team. He can easily be the 4th or 5th option and excel in that role but he absolutely needs the JB/Tatum Alphas to lead the team. 

As Mac said, he's never been on a winning team. We have proof of concept with Trae. Give him a defensive Big, shooters, and a bench and he'll lead the team to success. 

So you trade DJM for players that help Trae. That means you get a defensive Big, you get bench depth, you get long athletic defenders that can shoot. 

As for specific players, I'm still trying everything I can to acquire Herb Jones.  I'm drafting Sarr or Clingan as the defensive Big of the future. I'm using the TPE and MLE to build depth. 

I don't have all the answers, but I'm also not paid to scout the league for players to add. That's Landry and Kyle's job. My only ask is that they have a logical roster construction plan and they add players that fit that plan. And that as fans we judge them based on how the plan works or doesn't work. 

In the last 2 offseasons, they've made one major move that didn't work and several other moves that can only be construed as cost cutting. That HAS to change if they are going to be serious about contending. 

[Packfill]

11 minutes ago, Afro said:

Egg-zactly.

I hate to keep beating this same drum.....but Trae has won before? DJM hasn't done anything really in 7 seasons? What are we doing here lol. Some people just need to say they hate him for his haircut so we can move on. 

Plus, Trae won with a roster that really isnt all that difficult to replace. It's not like he made the ECF with a bunch of superstars we can't afford anymore. Just a bunch of quality role players who could play team defense and hit shots. That's not that hard to build lol. 

Also, that run wasn't a fluke. Hawks beat a decent and healthy Knicks team. Beat the Sixers with a functioning Embiid(as much as he ever is in the offs) and a Ben Simmons who was still elite. Went toe to toe with the Bucks. That wasn't a mickey mouse run. Trae really did that shit. 

Im gonna keep saying this until people acknowledge it and stop with this "how do you compete with Trae"? BS. Tyler Jones says it best. The problem never was Trae. The problem is the Hawks had no idea why that team was good.....and its been years and they STILL dont know why that roster was good. 

 

Asking a front office that cant put a minimumly competitive roster around a superstar.....to build a roster without said superstar.....is stupid as hell lol. 

Let me start by saying I don't mean to diminish what the Hawks accomplished by advancing to the ECFs.  That was a great run.  

That said, lots of teams get on a heater and advance in the playoffs to their conference finals.  Very few teams, however, get back there.  The Hawks and Trae have to get back there to prove it was not a one time outlier.  

This season showed the east is wide open.  The Hawks can pull a Mavs/Pacers and get there - and maybe even beyond, but they need to make some serious tweaks to the current roster to do that in my opinion.  

I would make trading Murray (alone or as part of a package depending on the return) a priority this off-season.  I don't think running it back will get the Hawks where they want to go in the short or long term.  Whether that trade be one of the New Orleans iterations we have all seen or a trade with another point guard needy team (there are a few - Orlando (trade return ideally centered around Suggs), Phoenix (ideally with the return being Booker), Nets (with return centered ideally around Bridges), Lakers (would need a third team involved), etc.).

[Afro]

19 minutes ago, Packfill said:

Let me start by saying I don't mean to diminish what the Hawks accomplished by advancing to the ECFs.  That was a great run.  

That said, lots of teams get on a heater and advance in the playoffs to their conference finals.  Very few teams, however, get back there.  The Hawks and Trae have to get back there to prove it was not a one time outlier.  

This season showed the east is wide open.  The Hawks can pull a Mavs/Pacers and get there - and maybe even beyond, but they need to make some serious tweaks to the current roster to do that in my opinion.  

I would make trading Murray (alone or as part of a package depending on the return) a priority this off-season.  I don't think running it back will get the Hawks where they want to go in the short or long term.  Whether that trade be one of the New Orleans iterations we have all seen or a trade with another point guard needy team (there are a few - Orlando (trade return ideally centered around Suggs), Phoenix (ideally with the return being Booker), Nets (with return centered ideally around Bridges), Lakers (would need a third team involved), etc.).

Definitely agree with all of this and what @REHawksFan said above. 

The real problem was having the Gallos, Huerters, Collins, Snell, Reddish(to an extent) that made a cohesive team with a vision and replacing them with also rans like the Holidays and Matthews of the world.

These last few years the Hawks have had rosters that maybe had 5 total guys that were functioning and fit together. Thats real bad lol. 

They need to trade DJM away for pieces that create an actual team again. 

Edited June 11 by Afro

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, Afro said:

Some people just need to say they hate him for his haircut so we can move on. 

Everything going to be different this year.  

[Packfill]

22 minutes ago, Afro said:

Definitely agree with all of this and what @REHawksFan said above. 

The real problem was having the Gallos, Huerters, Collins, Snell, Reddish(to an extent) that made a cohesive team with a vision and replacing them with also rans like the Holidays and Matthews of the world.

These last few years the Hawks have had rosters that maybe had 5 total guys that were functioning and fit together. Thats real bad lol. 

They need to trade DJM away for pieces that create an actual team again. 

The most straightforward approach to building a consistent winner is having two stars that fit together.  Hawks tried that with Murray (just like the Mavs tried with KP) and now need to pivot. How good they do in that endeavor will shape the team over the next 3 plus seasons.  

Maybe they can try an ensemble cast instead but that requires a lot of puzzle pieces to fall into place.  I prefer a star coming back for Murray and if I need to package OO, Kobe, the #1 pick or some other assets to get the right star I would do it.  

[supermariowest]

1 hour ago, Afro said:

Im gonna keep saying this until people acknowledge it and stop with this "how do you compete with Trae"? BS. Tyler Jones says it best. The problem never was Trae. The problem is the Hawks had no idea why that team was good.....and its been years and they STILL dont know why that roster was good. 

I’m not suggesting that Trae is the problem. He’s an offensive engine. As I mentioned elsewhere, I like Trae and seeing him take a bow at MSG after eliminating the Knicks was an all-time Hawks fan moment for me.

The Hawks are up against the cap, ownership has not shown a willingness to spend on a play-in team, and we have limited avenues for improvement due to poor asset management. Given these restrictions, how do you build a winner around Trae? This question does not come from a place of hate (nor stupidity). I’ve thought about it a lot and sincerely don’t know. You mentioned acquiring quality role players who play D and hit shots. Sounds great! They also need to be (1) affordable and (2) available (noting again we don’t have a wealth of quality trade assets).

Like you, I just want to see our team win. I was hoping somebody would lay out an actionable plan so I could see the light. I’ve seen plenty of “no that’s stupid” takes but only one possible alternative plan that mentions specific players and how we would acquire them (the rumored NO trade that nets us Jones and BI, but I have concerns about BI’s future contract and doubts about NO’s willingness to move Jones). 

[macdaddy]

5 minutes ago, supermariowest said:

I’m not suggesting that Trae is the problem. He’s an offensive engine. As I mentioned elsewhere, I like Trae and seeing him take a bow at MSG after eliminating the Knicks was an all-time Hawks fan moment for me.

The Hawks are up against the cap, ownership has not shown a willingness to spend on a play-in team, and we have limited avenues for improvement due to poor asset management. Given these restrictions, how do you build a winner around Trae? This question does not come from a place of hate (nor stupidity). I’ve thought about it a lot and sincerely don’t know. You mentioned acquiring quality role players who play D and hit shots. Sounds great! They also need to be (1) affordable and (2) available (noting again we don’t have a wealth of quality trade assets).

Like you, I just want to see our team win. I was hoping somebody would lay out an actionable plan so I could see the light. I’ve seen plenty of “no that’s stupid” takes but only one possible alternative plan that mentions specific players and how we would acquire them (the rumored NO trade that nets us Jones and BI, but I have concerns about BI’s future contract and doubts about NO’s willingness to move Jones). 

I just think this is a peculiar Atlanta myth.   Look at the top teams in the league.   If they aren't enjoying rookie contracts for their top players like OKC then they usually have 3 or more guys making $30million plus a year.  We have one. We can do it but we have to spend and find value.  

To be more specific i'd say DJ/Capela/Hunter are too expensive combined for what they are giving us.  That $70 million would be better spent on 2 high level players.  

Then we have to find value players like we see in the playoffs every year.  Guys like Gafford, Hart, Horford, Reed, Anderson.

I know this isn't super specific but it's just not the impossibility that some say it is.   Yeah it's hard but teams do it every year.  

[KB21]

The Hawks made a run to the ECF in 2020-21 and these were their leading minutes played players in the playoffs that year:

• Trae Young 
• Bogdan Bogdanovich
• John Collins
• Clint Capela
• Kevin Huerter
• Danillo Gallinari
• Lou Williams

That team also had the best record in the Eastern Conference over the second half of that season.  They only got 4 games from Cam Reddish and 5 from Deandre Hunter in the playoffs.  

Let's start with Kevin Huerter.  He had his limitations, but within that particular scheme, he fit with Trae in the back court.  He offered some secondary ball handling when needed, but he was a willing shooter.  When he drove, he didn't settle for mid-range jumpers.  He broke the paint.  He had very good passing vision, and he was a better defensive player than he was given credit for being.  He was +6.9 over the second half of that season

Then there was Clint Capela.  He was a FORCE that season on defense.  He was arguably one of the 5 best defenders in the NBA, and he was very efficient on offense.  Do you want to know why a coach like Quin still relies on Clint despite his overall decline over the past couple of years.  This is why:

Notice how Clint recognizes and gets the Hawks out of a bad switch situation.  

Clint was a +8.9 over the second half of that season and had a defensive rating of 108 with an offensive rating of 128.  He was an All Star level player that year  

Bogdanovich started around 25 games over the second half of the year.  He shot 46% from three and had a +5.8 rating.

John Collins shot 41% from three and had a 112 defensive rating.  His secondary rim protection was legit that season, and he was able to expand his shooting.  He was +8.7.  

More to come.

[REHawksFan]

6 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I just think this is a peculiar Atlanta myth.   Look at the top teams in the league.   If they aren't enjoying rookie contracts for their top players like OKC then they usually have 3 or more guys making $30million plus a year.  We have one. We can do it but we have to spend and find value.  

To be more specific i'd say DJ/Capela/Hunter are too expensive combined for what they are giving us.  That $70 million would be better spent on 2 high level players.  

Then we have to find value players like we see in the playoffs every year.  Guys like Gafford, Hart, Horford, Reed, Anderson.

I know this isn't super specific but it's just not the impossibility that some say it is.   Yeah it's hard but teams do it every year.  

So much truth here. 

It's like folks think the only options are Trae plus a bunch of non-allstars or Trade Trae cuz he can't win here. 

Well how about Trae plus 1 or 2 other star players? When is that going to be an option??

[REHawksFan]

5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

The Hawks made a run to the ECF in 2020-21 and these were their leading minutes played players in the playoffs that year:

• Trae Young 
• Bogdan Bogdanovich
• John Collins
• Clint Capela
• Kevin Huerter
• Danillo Gallinari
• Lou Williams

That team also had the best record in the Eastern Conference over the second half of that season.  They only got 4 games from Cam Reddish and 5 from Deandre Hunter in the playoffs.  

Let's start with Kevin Huerter.  He had his limitations, but within that particular scheme, he fit with Trae in the back court.  He offered some secondary ball handling when needed, but he was a willing shooter.  When he drove, he didn't settle for mid-range jumpers.  He broke the paint.  He had very good passing vision, and he was a better defensive player than he was given credit for being.  He was +6.9 over the second half of that season

Then there was Clint Capela.  He was a FORCE that season on defense.  He was arguably one of the 5 best defenders in the NBA, and he was very efficient on offense.  Do you want to know why a coach like Quin still relies on Clint despite his overall decline over the past couple of years.  This is why:

Notice how Clint recognizes and gets the Hawks out of a bad switch situation.  

Clint was a +8.9 over the second half of that season and had a defensive rating of 108 with an offensive rating of 128.  He was an All Star level player that year  

Bogdanovich started around 25 games over the second half of the year.  He shot 46% from three and had a +5.8 rating.

John Collins shot 41% from three and had a 112 defensive rating.  His secondary rim protection was legit that season, and he was able to expand his shooting.  He was +8.7.  

More to come.

If you pair Trae with elite defensive Bigs and shooters, he'll lead the team to success. That's what the ECF run tells me. Haven't sniffed that level of production from the "others" since. 

But it doesn't have to be that hard. Just upgrade at the 5 position, see normal growth from JJ at the 4, and add depth from the bench. 

[supermariowest]

2 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

So much truth here. 

It's like folks think the only options are Trae plus a bunch of non-allstars or Trade Trae cuz he can't win here. 

Well how about Trae plus 1 or 2 other star players? When is that going to be an option??

It’s not like that at all. I have not suggested either of the two options you mentioned. My point is the “Trae plus 1 or 2 other star players” path is hard to envision due to cap restraints, our limited trade assets, and the small pool of “star” players that are both available and affordable for a team up against the cap and with meager assets. Who are the two star players and how do you acquire them given those constraints? To reiterate, none of this comes from a place of hate (or stupidity). It’s a sincere question.

Thanks to @macdaddy for addressing the actual question — including the nuance.

Thanks to @KB21 for the beginning of what I am sure will be a well-researched reply. 

[KB21]

One thing I'm really wondering about is whether we have someone already in house that will offer internal development and be one of those shooters we really need on the perimeter.

Seth was legit good in the G League for College Park this year.  Some may poopoo on the idea but look at the roster Quin had when he had his best team in Utah (2020-2021, won 72% of his games in the regular season, flamed out in the playoffs).  Outside of Donovan Mitchell, Mike Conley, and Rudy Gobert, he had guys like Joe Ingles, Royce O'Neal (who was very good that season), Jordan Clarkson, Bojan Bogdanovich, and Georges Niang making contributions as shooters and defenders that forced three-point shooters off their spots.  Most of those guys were mid-career guys who Quin made better in his scheme.  

To me, Seth Lundy may very well be what everyone thinks AJ Griffin should be.  Except that Seth is much more decisive on the floor.  You don't see him hesitate when he decides to shoot or to drive and break the paint.  He also wasn't a bad defender at College Park.  

[REHawksFan]

2 minutes ago, supermariowest said:

It’s not like that at all. I have not suggested either of the two options you mentioned. My point is the “Trae plus 1 or 2 other star players” path is hard to envision due to cap restraints, our limited trade assets, and the small pool of “star” players that are both available and affordable for a team up against the cap and with meager assets. Who are the two star players and how do you acquire them given those constraints? To reiterate, none of this comes from a place of hate (or stupidity). It’s a sincere question.

Thanks to @macdaddy for addressing the actual question — including the nuance.

Thanks to @KB21 for the beginning of what I am sure will be a well-researched reply. 

Not sure why you are quoting me. I wasn't addressing you or speaking about you. There's several posters on here that want Trae gone and some who claim DJM is just as good as Trae, which is the stupidity I've referenced. 

But carry on if you want to take any of that personally.

And FYI....I specifically addressed exactly what you requested in my first post in this thread. 

[supermariowest]

6 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Not sure why you are quoting me. I wasn't addressing you or speaking about you. There's several posters on here that want Trae gone and some who claim DJM is just as good as Trae, which is the stupidity I've referenced. 

But carry on if you want to take any of that personally.

And FYI....I specifically addressed exactly what you requested in my first post in this thread. 

You quoted mac who quoted me, which is why I quoted you. Agreed that Herb Jones would be a great addition but he’s definitely not the “star” player you mentioned. And acquiring him uses up virtually all of our trade assets (other than #1 pick). I’ll also add his contract is amazing (from a team-building perspective).

There is perhaps a small subset of posters who never liked Trae and want him gone. But I think you are misrepresenting arguments presented in the other thread. It’s not so much that DJM is just as good as Trae. It’s definitely not that Trae should be moved for peanuts. It’s that DJM is a good player on a much friendlier contract and MAYBE moving Trae — if and only if we get equivalent value back — should be an option in light of the constraints we’re facing otherwise.

Maybe we agree to disagree and just leave it at “Go Hawks!”